Just saw that this morning. You'd despair.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
Printable View
Just saw that this morning. You'd despair.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
I assumed when I saw the headline that it was gonna be a ****take article. How wrong I was!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
As painful as that was to read and as bad as the comments were also to read... My ire was mostly reserved for the use of pictures:Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
http://c3.thejournal.ie/media/2014/0...um-630x415.jpg
http://c3.thejournal.ie/media/2014/0...um-630x415.jpg
In that useless post they managed to post a bar from Semple Stadium... could they not find a picture of a bar from a pub? FFS! I despair!
I copped the "Fir" in the toilet sign of the top left and that was that. Morons.
As I always say - Ireland is the worst country in Europe to be a football fan. Uh....
I thought some of you might find some interesting parallels here. The match he talks about finished 3-2 to Juventus:
Here's the interesting article:Quote:
Their 3-2 loss, which came on the back of two late goals within five minutes of each other, in reality, was almost one of the greatest upsets we have seen in Australian football. This is a side who have been assembled for the best part of a week, who had the audacity to play an attacking brand of football against Juventus, the Serie A giants, champions over the last three seasons in one of the best football leagues in the world.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/a...#ixzz3A8b0k0Hl
http://www.theguardian.com/football/...stars-juventus
Quote:
Brian is an Arsenal fan, even though he lives in Newtown and he’s never actually been to Highbury or the Emirates Stadium. Brian was also a Barcelona fan for a few seasons, and he went through a Palmeiras phase after that two-for-one sale at the Adidas Originals store. He doesn’t care much for the local game, so you do your best to explain.
Along a similar vein, we have a German fella staying with us at present, he's from Bremen but supports Bayern München.
Same country, granted, but the guts of 600km distance.
Supporting non-local teams happens more than we probably imagine.
Does he support his local side too?
Mate of mine from Vigo supporters Barcelona but also his hometown club. He says it's very common for Spanish people to support their own club and one of the big two.
Nope. And it's not like Werder Bremen are a small team or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louth4sam
The 'fans' that annoy me the most are the clowns that, never having been to Manchester, Liverpool, London etc, still insist on using 'we' to describe an EPL team :mad: really makes me want to bludgeon them to death with the nearest TV. Usually resist the urge to kill (no guarantee of future performance ;) as the banks say) but have to ask if their name is Glazer, Henry or Abramovich.
........its the little things that keep you sane(ish)
the "we" stuff gets me everytime.
Also when Irish liverpool and united"fans" call one another mancs and scousers. Makes me want to throw up all over them
No worse again is when they call each other "Manc scum" or "scouse scum".
Sure, the examples desaintsno.12, Jofspring and yourself highlight are curious and peculiarly Irish phenomena, and I'm not particularly fond of the hyper-commercial ethos that now permeates modern football at the expense of the communal one, but that's an awful lot of repressed anger you've got there. Why do you hate so much people who simply have an interest in something other than what you're interested in? Of what use is such pent-up aggression and what business is it of yours if other people want to shamelessly consume a brand? Is it your way of reassuring yourself you're better than them?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
Ah Danny.
The main reason that an LOI fan might seem to be more angry or annoyed or seemingly feel a sense of superiority is because we are witnessing the slow demise of soccer in our country.
The LOI is dying as is the IL. Werder Bremen will be fine without that one odd fan who supports Bayern. Shels and Bohs and Harps and Derry however...
I have no care for who anyone supports. It doesn't really affect my day-to-day living but whe you see the stupid "lifestyle" of Irish EPL supporting fans it just makes you weep for what could be.
I mean the dismissal of the entire national league of a country doesn't happen ANYWHERE else. At least Barca and Bayern are located in the countries of the above mentioned people.
The supporting of Madrid and Barca right across Spain usually occurs in conjunction with the local team and I see no harm in that generally.
So yes, Marinobohs is better than them. As I am and Dodge and Nigel and PartySaint and LTID and Osa and Jofsping and dong and redobit and SkStu and Longfordian and SamHeggy...
You say the LOI is dying, but is that not a Shels fan talking?
I can only follow the LOI from a laptop but what I'm picking up on is a strong vibe from Cork and Dundalk and Rovets, Pats and Sligo are well placed to push on in the years ahead. I think the LOI is in a better place than 20 years ago. Maybe not 10 years ago but costs are more realistically managed now.
Anyway, my Berlin mate is a Bayern fan. He claims also to be a Hertha fan.
I think it's ok for fans from non-elite football nations to have a team they support in a big league. I do hate when that's all they support though. I think the Scandies are quite good at supporting local football whilst also looking to the big leagues for a bit of vicarious big time football action. I think the Irish are particularly rubbish. I think it's odd that a German from a big city can claim to be a fan of two top flight teams from big cities, less odd than a guy from the regions following only a big city club.
To be honest, only supporting one team makes more sense to me. I can't imagine supporting two clubs in the same league, or even league set-up. Shamrock Rovers B is an exception obviously.
The LOI isn't dying but it's been on life support for years. The stadiums are dilapidated and there are several generations that deride it for what it's not rather than appreciating it for what it is. In Tallaght, at least, there's been a clear shift in support from older fellas from the Milltown days to kids, which hopefully bodes well for the future, but I'm not sure how it is at other clubs.
Irish football dying is not just at league of Ireland level it's right across the board and most would prefer to just go on supporting English clubs across the water, pumping big money into the English game all the while ignoring all the problems that are here. The same people will then whinge that Ireland isn't producing good enough players anymore and that the international team is suffering.
I've absolutely no problem with people supporting the bigger clubs, who doesn't want to see the best players playing at the highest level, but getting in a few Loi matches here and there would go along way to an Irish team but would be fairly insignificant to the bigger clubs.
As you know, there's an emotional side of me that strongly sympathises, if not wants to conveniently agree, with a lot of what you say, but I think the anger is misdirected and counter-productive. It's terribly regrettable that the game in Ireland is the way it is. It is a great shame; a national shame. But surely to feel angry towards someone for what they happen to take an interest in, simply because it's not in line with what you're interested in yourself, is to selfishly or expectantly assume, or at least imply, that they somehow owe you something or that they exist to serve your interests to some degree? In any scenario, there will always be elements that we can't control. To speak rather generally for a moment, shifting blame onto those factors/people and vocalising them as excuses is vindictive, irresponsible and, ultimately, a surrendering of personal/collective power and an acceptance of impotence. How can someone who owes you and your passion nothing in the first place be held responsible for the demise of said passion? The upkeep and maintenance of your passion is not their burden. It is the responsibility of the self-declared and recognised patrons of that passion. If there is anger to be directed, it ought to be (constructive anger) directed towards those patrons, who should also be willing to admit that their negligence, failure to take initiative and habitual inability to learn from their errors has indeed proved detrimental.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I'd love it if the broad Irish public got behind the entire Irish game, but they do have a choice, whether we like it or not, so it's about winning them over and trying to welcome them under the umbrella. It's a voluntary matter for them; becoming interested parties. There are no obligations or duties. If trying to win them over doesn't work, try again and try harder. There's little point in shunning them, abusing them and condemning them to their alleged national and intellectual inferiority. In what way could that ever be productive? Trying to shame them for who they are? The rather bi-polar position of playing their victim whilst simultaneously claiming their national and intellectual superior breeds nothing but animosity and contempt.
"They're the problem." "We aren't wrong." "It is someone else's fault." "We are superior." They're all unhelpful attitudes. It takes me back to a quote by the missed Sullivinho (where did he go anyway?) from the eligibility thread back in the day. To adapt it and render it relevant here, it could be rephrased as:
Curiosities and contradiction abound when trying to explain the inexplicable. Family? Ignorance? Inferiority? Stupidity? Extraterrestrial mind control? All possibilities. What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.
And so we mocked IFA intransigence and presumptuousness along such lines. We advised that the IFA should sort out their own house before shifting the blame for their perceived problems onto others. The quote embodies a familiar defeatist mindset, so why should we tolerate such psychological evasion to the detriment of our national league, just because it's convenient to shift the blame? When someone engages in such evasion and delusion, they should be pulled up on it, because it's not doing the league any favours and causes only further damage. It lets those responsible off the hook.
I agree that that represents a glaring contradiction in the declared interests of many football fans in Ireland. We can only hope that the greater number of League of Ireland players contributing to the fortunes (hopefully not misfortunes...) of the national side opens more eyes to the crucial importance of a stronger national league, especially with the numerical downturn of Irish players participating in the upper echelons of the English game. Educating people (as intellectual equals) when the opportunity arises and explaining to them why, in your opinion, their declared interests are seemingly incongruous and self-defeating (without being condescending or assuming that they must be imbecilic ignoramuses to think the inexplicable way do) is a good start. I speak generally, by the way, and am not referring to you specifically, Jofspring. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jofspring
As an aside, it's not something I've theorised about or pondered about in any great detail (so would, of course, appreciate the thoughts of others on it), but I've often thought that the lack of a widespread industrial revolution, and resultant urbanisation, in Ireland has historically contributed to the country's poor to virtually non-existent national footballing infrastructure and culture. Ireland was the exception in Europe during the age of industrialisation and remained primarily agrarian whilst the rest of Europe steamrolled into the next century. In the UK and other European states, the stronger football teams almost exclusively grew out of urban working-class communities living around the thriving factories in the new industrial centres. Ireland's society and national identity has been very much a rural one, historically, with that identity rooted very much in the concept of the agricultural parish. The attempted (or half-hearted, even) Gaelicisation/de-Anglicisation of Ireland towards and post-independence, no doubt, didn't help the development of the "foreign game" either.
I can guarantee you it will do the opposite. You can have Seamus Colemans coming out your arse but there will always be a substantial portion of Irish people who genuinely think they could play for Drogheda United or Shelbourne. 80% of this country is lost to the LOI and will never have their heads turned. There is a small (young) minority who might buy in but they have to be given an experience they can buy into and bring their friends along with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Disinterest can admittedly be pretty stubborn but I don't think that's a necessary truth to which we should just automatically resign ourselves. There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. Has it really been tried en masse at all? How did football gain such popularity in the US recently, for example? Was there a concerted campaign (obviously in line with the World Cup)? I can't imagine it was purely spontaneous. Gradually winning over people can help; the sense that something is popular can be a very powerful and contagious tool. There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.
If Irish football is dying how come the girls game seems to be thriving? u19s, Raheny United?
I think the lack of top quality coming through is largely because the bar has been raised so high now and because the traditional destination for our best talent is now looking under rocks in the North Pole, its recruitment reach is that vast.
Yes, there are issues with the shape of the game, coaching standards, coaching and infrastructure investment etc. but it's too extreme to say the game is dying.
I still think the game has a very strong foundational structure but emotionally / psychologically the public want to attach to the nearby "major league" variety. It's the BIRGing / CORFing thing I referred to earlier in another thread.
I do agree with Danny though, there are ways to win people over.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZUQuote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
There's a lot of self-righteousness in this thread...
(runs)
The LOI isn't dying, it's plodding along like it always has.
We often see people going on about how the LOI is 'dying' or 'broken', but when people talk about fixing it, 'fix' means 'improve', and I think that the kind of improvement that they imagine is beyond what will happen in LOI.
Who's to blame? The clubs, sure, for being, for the most part, terribly mismanaged and usually shortsighted. The FAI, sure, for not giving a sh!t about their league.
Some people don't have any interest in the LOI or care about it - fine with me, no worries, watch what you like.
But I don't think for a second that we need to refrain from expressing our frustration with and/or distain for people who instantly dismiss the LOI as sh!te, dying, or broken. I think it's generous to suggest that a rational and logical argument will convince these people of the merits of LOI when they are happy to dismiss it without any rational reason whatsoever.
Finally, on the issue of coming across as 'superior' or 'condescending'. We see it a lot, although not so much on this site. "I would go to LOI, but the fans might be mean to me. They're always acting so superior."
Anybody, and I mean anybody, who uses this pathetic excuse can go f**k themselves.
Vast, vast majority of people looking to "fix" the league don't care about it.
I say it all the time but **** them, their loss. As long as I have games to go to and a team to cheer on, I'll be OK. It's supposed to be fun after all.
Fans of LOI clubs constantly moaning about being ignored/dismissed does no good. Whining rarely makes people think something is fun.
Also, I wrote this in reply to one of those arseholey "I don't care about the league but I'll try and fix it anyway" articles in March
http://backpagefootball.com/new-leag...a-reply/71752/
Based on Jonathan Wilson's book on Eastern European football the LOI appears to be quite well run!
I'm not sure what people really want in the league. The champions of the last few years have won it the right way and in exciting contests. This year looks no different. For a league in a small country with no TV market and starved of any source of non-domestic money, what do people expect?
I hung around with a lot of football-minded friends in my 20s. Rather than attending LOI regularly most of us played every weekend, and usually twice a weekend. Add twice weekly training and there wasn't much time left for going to live games. The sheer numbers of people playing in all of the corporation parks at weekends, and the depth of coverage in the weekly junior footy pull outs in the evening papers suggested to me that Ireland actually managed to convert football interest into something more tangible than paying to watch the game at home. There are well supported community clubs all over the country, but few of these players and volunteers are part of the LOI fanbase. That's not wrong from a moral point of view, but it's a weakness from an organisational perspective, the much sought after joined-up pyramid etc.
Lots of other countries get political support for football infrastructure but Ireland is relatively unique in that football is competing with the sporting wing of the Irish state. Other small countries have other sports to compete with but the GAA is different because of its political support. I loved Jerry Kiernan's outburst recently on the state funding a new clubhouse for London GAA, giving more money than it ever gives Irish athletics. Rugby is fortunate because it has privileged access to the lucrative Heineken Cup (and successor) and has only a handful of countries to compete against. Without European rugby the Celtic nations would be in the same position as the LOI. The IRFU has exploited its position very well, and rugby has tapped into a peculiar part of the Irish psyche in that we love external success / validation, especially against England. The same part of that psyche is to look down our noses where we're not up to scratch.
I really liked Dodge's response to that article but one point I'm not sure about is that just because a disinterested outsider thinks the league should improve doesn't mean that the league couldn't improve, and more importantly, that it's not important for it to be better. All Irish football stakeholders win if the LOI is stronger, better connected to other levels of football, better backed and better supported in my opinion.
I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people. If I want to be dismissive of other people who don't give it a chance, or sneer at them, it's my choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
There is little converting to be done in Dundalk and i'm sure its the same in other towns like Sligo for example. A good majority are interested in how the club is getting on and I have no problem passing on the results but those that ask about the game on Friday nights have so many excuses for why they wont or cant get up to Oriel... The most common excuse currently seems to be I used to go but when things went bad I gave up and i'd feel stupid going back as i dont want to be one of those only sing when we're winning people (though these tend to have Leeds, Blackburn, Man U, Arsenal shirts oF 90's vintage). There is little sneering at Dundalk FC but I feel like sneering at those who claim to have served their time in Oriel (quite appropriate term for some) during the 80s hence leave the supporting to the younger folk now - didnt know 40 something was somewhat of a retirement age for football supporters in North Louth
40 somethings have family commitments that younger folk don't have though. So I'm told anyway :)
I think most "active" football fans are younger. I used to love being in the thick of things and joining in all the chanting. I'm much more passive in my old age now.
Spot on. And as for being dismissive, do people not find that fans of english clubs can be equally, if not more, dismissive of the LOI - !I wouldn't watch that ****e etc etc. Oh, and it is fun. Ask Dundalk fans this year, or Pats fans last year. In fact even when it's not so much fun, I still find you can't stop caring. It must be like a parent dealing with a child on drugs or something, you still can't help loving them, even though they break your heart :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The problem for a long time was that the 40-somethings were becoming a larger proportion of the fanbase, which isn't the way numbers are really supposed to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
It's funny you know, I love telling EPL fans "I wouldn't watch that sh!te", and just look at their reactions. The mixture of confusion and anger that fills them is wonderful.
I've gone beyond getting annoyed at people. It's their choice what they wish to watch, but it'll not stop me attempting to bring a few friends along. A close friend of mine started watching Galway at the start of the season, never been a league of Ireland fan before, and he's now a fairly regular attendee in Terryland. No pressure put on him, and he's gone and enjoyed it himself.
You can't force someone to watch it. But you can encourage.
Living in England for the most part with regular weekends back, when games are on TV like the recent Cork v Dundalk match the English lads that were watching the game had a genuine interest or curiosity in the standard. After the game it was 'when you heading over for a match we'll tip along too'. No cajoling or justifying a leagues existence. These guys would be Colchester United, Orient, & and Southend regulars but West Ham too (not the Orient lads lol). In a very common sense point of view they dont expect every game to be of a Sky Sports top ten moments. They acknowledge the limitations of the lower league teams but dont deride them in a comparison to an EPL team. They loved the passion and dedication that was on offer at Turners Cross, the football too - no amount of explaining the Oriel was no comparison to Turners Cross facilities wise they didnt care. United Park on Friday was a contrast ground wise but again there was no elitist attitude they enjoyed the game and thrills of the Derby. I suppose what im getting at is that Irish football fans are far more critical of our own and overly so in contrast to an outside untainted viewpoint that is not warped by BT or SKY razzmatazz. A similar contrast from being at Upton Park to WHC Stadium but the sense not to expect the same experience, not comparing like with like etc. As regulars in a pub that has Irish sports Soccer Republic gets a few airings over the week. Its all an easy sell compared to the complex driven 'Irish' fans. They did laugh though at a documentary on New York EPL supporters and an irish lad stating that he refused to go in to a bar cause it was full of Mancs or Scousers ... cant remember which
I agree with you in the most part - but the type im referring to are already sitting in a pub having sunk numerous pints, want a detailed match report, start misty eyed reminising about former eras and how much they gave of themselves. Suggest that the head up the following week ....?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Oh good jaysus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I think the League of Ireland and Women's football are two of the positive things going on in Irish football. The LOI clubs have improved off the pitch after some very hard times, even though it's still a challenge to balance the books. The importance of the LOI developing players for the national team has been on an upward trend for the last decade. The number of ex-LOI players in the squad and in the first XI is increasing all the time. We can't rely on foreign clubs to develop our players for us anymore and the LOI has a key role to play, hopefully more people will realise this.
Looked it up and it is a film on Manchester United and the comment 'Why do you not like Manchester United fans? Irish chap in an Arsenal shirt replies 'Cause none of them are from Manchester!'......while walking down a New York street the Irony was not lost on the English lads!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
7.40mins in but go back to 7min to get the full puke worthy chat!
http://watchmovies.to/movies/45079-m...-promised-land
I hope you didn't infer that from my post, Charlie. Everyone's free to do what they like. :) When I spoke about responsibility, I was looking at those who explicitly claim responsibility for/ownership of the league and the clubs. It's only fair to expect that they'd act as responsible ambassadors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
What do you say to those who offer you that "excuse"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I don't want to make a massive deal out of it in confrontational fashion as you may have used it fairly neutrally (or perhaps unwittingly) and this probably comes across as a bit pedantic on my part, but even the word "excuse" used in this context has loaded connotations and would sound daft - possibly even insulting - to someone with no present active interest in the league. An excuse is "a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation or a promise". These inactive or latent supporters may have their reasons, but why would or should they ever feel like they have to excuse themselves, as if they're in the wrong and owe you an explanation?
The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?
What you say is probably true, but it's surely no reason to lower oneself to such standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
"They're dismissive of us, so we're going to be dismissive of them!" Where does that get us?
Are you serious? Do you really think that LOI fans are confronting or challenging non LOI fans, 'badgering' them, looking for them to justify their non-attendance? That's a ludicrous notion, and not in any way a rational interpretation of the comments on this thread either.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Danny, who are you to lecture us on what you see as our condescension and our unhelpful attitudes, or instruct us as to what we should be doing? Why should I not simply assume that you are just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think they know how to diagnose the problems and to fix them?
Certainly, your argument that all the league needs is a bit of imagination in its promotion is a ridiculous oversimplification of the problems it faces, and very insulting to people, people I know personally, who have spent years, if not decades, working their arses off to develop their club in the face of a generally apathetic public.