O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krstic

Derry Born players will still be eligable for ROI then:D

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You may be joking, Krstic, but imo, "the territory of the relevant Association" is the key phrase in this seeming new development from FIFA.

That is, whilst various Governments/Politicians/Institutions/Courts etc might disagree over whether a piece of land "belongs" to one country/Nation/jurisdiction etc or another, FIFA is quite clear what constitutes "territory" from a footballing point of view.

And as far as the two Irish Associations go, the FAI's "territory" extends to the 26 counties (only), whilst the IFA's territory covers the 6 counties (all of them, that is!).

I personally don't think FIFA's choice of wording is coincidental; in fact, I'd say it was precisely chosen for its clarity and unambiguity.

Quote:

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16 Nationality entitling
players to represent more
than one Association
1 A player who, under the
terms of art. 15, is eligible
to represent more than one
Association on account of
his nationality, may play in
an international match for
one of these Associations
only if, in addition to having
the relevant nationality, he
fulfi ls at least one of the
following conditions:

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the new Article 16 seems to state that if a player is eligible to represent 2 (or more) associations (as a player born in NI would obviously be) then the conditions set out in article 15 are no longer the only conditions by which eligibility will be judged. Further criteria will be imposed.

What are the 'following conditions'.......could anybody fill me in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

the new Article 16 seems to state that if a player is eligible to represent 2 (or more) associations (as a player born in NI would obviously be)

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Focus a bit here,
tell me
how do you read that from

Article 16
1 A player who, under the
terms of art. 15, is eligible
to represent more than one
Association on account of
his nationality....

Where does it say "born" ?
it doesn't, it says nationality.
Irish Nationality is not the same as being born in NI.
Irish Nationality alone does not entitle you to play for another federation.

Am I right in saying that a person born in Northern Ireland would be given Irish nationality but would also have NI nationality?

Would that not give the person 2 nationalities?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Really? Your argument is that by virtue of having been born in e.g. Derry, a footballer is automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, therefore should be entitled to represent the ROI, without any other qualifying criteria needing to be applied.

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I read them rules
FIFA statute 15
- permanent citizenship is given without residency qualification

Quote:

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But by exactly the same token, such an individual is also automatically entitled to UK citizenship, and must therefore be entitled to represent the appropriate British Association (in this case the IFA) whether he chooses to, or not.

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Read the rule it says, whose nationality entitles them to play for another federation.
Since when does Irish nationality alone allow one to play for 2 teams?
It doesn't.

Quote:

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Therefore by Article 16, mustn't such an individual actually be "eligible to represent more than one Association", and so must meet at least one of the four specified conditions in order to represent his chosen Association?

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No.
Article 16 is for players whose nationality entitles them to play for 2 federations. Irish nationality does not alone entitle you play for NI.

Remember the terms of the compromise proposal?
The IFA could have negotiated for all Island of Ireland born to be eligible to play for NI.
They were not interested.
The situation remains unchanged
Irish born Nationals are not eligible to play for NI.
Article 16 should not apply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Am I right in saying that a person born in Northern Ireland would be given Irish nationality but would also have NI nationality?

Would that not give the person 2 nationalities?

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There is no such thing as NI nationality.
There is such a thing as as British nationality.

A British national is not eligible to play for the Republic.
An Irish national is not eligible to play for NI.

Article 16 clearly states that it is for a player whose nationality allows him to play for another country.
It does not refer to a player whose place of birth allows him to play for 2 different countries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geysir

There is no such thing as NI nationality.
There is such a thing as as British nationality.

A British national is not eligible to play for the Republic.
An Irish national is not eligible to play for NI.

Article 16 clearly states that it is for a player whose nationality allows him to play for another country.
It does not refer to a player whose place of birth allows him to play for 2 different countries.

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Would a person born in Northern Ireland not be a British national as well as an Irish national?

You seem very confident on this, so I'm wondering if I've got it wrong, but would a person not hold dual nationalities by virtue of being born in NI, and thus fall under article 16?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Would a person born in Northern Ireland not be a British national as well as an Irish national?

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A person who is born in the North who avails of their right to Irish Citizenship
is defined as a multiple citizen.

Quote:

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You seem very confident on this, so I'm wondering if I've got it wrong, but would a person not hold dual nationalities by virtue of being borh in NI, and thus fall under article 16?

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Article 16 refers to nationality - not dual nationality - not place of birth.
It refers to a Nationality that qualifies a player to declare for 2 federations.

Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for the North.
British Nationality does not qualify you to play for the Republic.

The conditions that Article 16 seeks to impose do not apply to Irish citizens.

Article 15 Eligibility applies to NI born Irish citizens, permanent citizenship without residency conditions.

It's just another case of premature OWC ejaculation.

FIFA with their proposals are clarifying the situation using more clear language.

[QUOTE=geysir;955061]It's just another case of premature OWC ejaculation.QUOTE]


Thats the best quote I have ever used on this forum. Absoloutely brilliant :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It may be a "relatively minor dispute" for you, and maybe even your fellow ROI fans, but it counts for rather more than that for the other side to the dispute.

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This statement was used by me when referring to your usage of the far more severe (imo) terms of war and battle in your original post but if you don't believe this dispute to be relatively minor in comparison to the darkest periods of mankind's history when man acts in his most inhumane and cruel manner towards his fellow man then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I would consider it relatively minor in comparision to World War II for instance.

As for your point about the CEO of our association let me just say that if you think it's ok to use inflammatory language just because John Delaney, a well known colossal tool on both sides of the border has also chosen to do so then that's your perjogative. He doesn't post on here though to my knowledge so you probably should have mailed him directly if, as you state, he even used such words.

As for your so called "victory" I wouldn't start celebrating VE day just yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geysir

Focus a bit here,


Where does it say "born" ?
it doesn't, it says nationality.
Irish Nationality is not the same as being born in NI.
Irish Nationality alone does not entitle you to play for another federation.

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It doesn't say "born" - just as it doesn't anywhere specify that e.g. Qatari Nationals have to be born in Qatar, either.

It is quite clear, however, that where a Qatari citizen has been born, say, in Brazil, that that "Qatari" also has to satisfy one of the four conditions set out in Article 16.

From my reading of the new rules - specifically article 15, when read in conjunction with article 16 - it appears that all dual nationals have to comply with one of the four conditions to be eligible for their chosen Association, regardless of whether one or more of their nationalities was acquired by birth, or by some other means. And as such, people born within NI are "dual nationals" within FIFA's understanding, since they automatically qualify for both British and Irish nationality*.

I do not see anything which exempts the FAI from such an interpretation. Rather, by FIFA's studied use of the phrase "...the territory of the relevant Association", I think the clear implication therein actually strengthens the IFA's case.

After all, one might argue over political concepts like 'Nationality', or 'Irishness' etc, but i have no doubt that for FIFA's purposes, the "territory" of the IFA encompasses six of the counties in Ireland, and the "territory" of the FAI the other 26.


* - Whether e.g. an NI Unionist declines to take up his Irish nationality, or a Six Counties Nationalist declines to take up his British nationality is neither here nor there to FIFA, so long as he doesn't try to play for both Irish teams at the same time, and/or that he complies with Article 18, should he decide to switch from one to the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It doesn't say "born" - just as it doesn't anywhere specify that e.g. Qatari Nationals have to be born in Qatar, either.

It is quite clear, however, that where a Qatari citizen has been born, say, in Brazil, that that "Qatari" also has to satisfy one of the four conditions set out in Article 16.

From my reading of the new rules - specifically article 15, when read in conjunction with article 16 - it appears that all dual nationals have to comply with one of the four conditions to be eligible for their chosen Association, regardless of whether one or more of their nationalities was acquired by birth, or by some other means. And as such, people born within NI are "dual nationals" within FIFA's understanding, since they automatically qualify for both British and Irish nationality*.

I do not see anything which exempts the FAI from such an interpretation. Rather, by FIFA's studied use of the phrase "...the territory of the relevant Association", I think the clear implication therein actually strengthens the IFA's case.

After all, one might argue over political concepts like 'Nationality', or 'Irishness' etc, but i have no doubt that for FIFA's purposes, the "territory" of the IFA encompasses six of the counties in Ireland, and the "territory" of the FAI the other 26.


* - Whether e.g. an NI Unionist declines to take up his Irish nationality, or a Six Counties Nationalist declines to take up his British nationality is neither here nor there to FIFA, so long as he doesn't try to play for both Irish teams at the same time, and/or that he complies with Article 18, should he decide to switch from one to the other.

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Get a life EG nothing has changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geysir

Remember the terms of the compromise proposal?
The IFA could have negotiated for all Island of Ireland born to be eligible to play for NI.
They were not interested.
The situation remains unchanged
Irish born Nationals are not eligible to play for NI.
Article 16 should not apply.

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If "the situation remains unchanged", why is FIFA seeing fit to alter the wording of Articles 15 and 16?
Why do they wish to introduce the phrase "within the territory of the relevant Association"?
Why, when the Qatari/Brazilian situation is so vexed, are they not making a clear distinction between people born outwith the jurisdiction of their nationality and those born within, as well as a distinction between those who have Nationality by birth (anywhere) and acquired, or new, Nationality?

My reading of this whole affair is that as a basis for footballing eligibility, the situation whereby a country could grant nationality to someone who was neither born within their jurisdiction, nor had parents/grandparents so born, was almost unique to Ireland. (Most countries restrict nationality, not widen it)

And although this created a "loophole" within FIFA's Rules which the FAI could exploit, for a long time it wasn't really a problem for the "aggrieved" party (IFA), initially whilst the Gentlemens' Agreement was equally observed by both parties and latterly, when it was only a few nondescript teenagers who were involved.

However, the case of Darron Gibson brought it up the Agenda for the IFA, coincidentally at the same time as the Qatari case did so for FIFA. And as I read things, the basic principle as far as FIFA were concerned, was that whilst the FAI might formerly have been entitled to pick NI-born players, there was no technical reason why they should qualify for an exemption from the new "Qatari" conditions (birth/parent/grandparent/residence) which FIFA now feels compelled to introduce.

Which would explain why the FAI imposed a moratorium on their managers picking NI-born players whilst FIFA were considering the issue, also why, after the final submissions by the two Associations to FIFA, the IFA seemed confident their case had prevailed, and the FAI seemed to accept that theirs hadn't (see Delaney's reported comment from Dublin Airport on RTE).

Of course, there was then the statement by the FAI that they they had "won", and their resumption of selection of NI-born players. However, I now suspect that they were taking advantage of an interim period, during which FIFA were making their final effort to satisfy everyone with their suggested "compromise".

So that when this compromise was rejected by the IFA, and the Sydney Congress came round, FIFA could fudge the issue no longer, hence the new Articles. And the more I read these, the more optimistic I am that FIFA has come up with a form of wording which means that the mere holding of nationality, whether by birth or by acquisition, is not enough to establish international eligibility for any given Association i.e. a player must also demonstrate compliance with one of the four Article 16 conditions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

people born within NI are "dual nationals"

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Are they though? Legally, people born in Northern Ireland are Irish (article 15 applies), British (article 15 applies), or dual (in which case article 16 would apply) nationals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youngirish

This statement was used by me when referring to your usage of the far more severe (imo) terms of war and battle in your original post but if you don't believe this dispute to be relatively minor in comparison to the darkest periods of mankind's history when man acts in his most inhumane and cruel manner towards his fellow man then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I would consider it relatively minor in comparision to World War II for instance.

As for your point about the CEO of our association let me just say that if you think it's ok to use inflammatory language just because John Delaney, a well known colossal tool on both sides of the border has also chosen to do so then that's your perjogative. He doesn't post on here though to my knowledge so you probably should have mailed him directly if, as you state, he even used such words.

As for your so called "victory" I wouldn't start celebrating VE day just yet.

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If all you're concerned about is my borrowing of a metaphor from one of the centrally involved figures, then I will gladly replace "battle" and "war", with "sprint" and "marathon" (or whatever else non-militaristic phrase you prefer). Hell, I'll even throw in an unconditional apology for my injury to the sensitivities of all the untold millions who've suffered in warfare in the history of mankind. OK?

P.S. Have you anything substantive to add to the debate, following these new developments in Sydney? :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It doesn't say "born" - just as it doesn't anywhere specify that e.g. Qatari Nationals have to be born in Qatar, either.

It is quite clear, however, that where a Qatari citizen has been born, say, in Brazil, that that "Qatari" also has to satisfy one of the four conditions set out in Article 16.

From my reading of the new rules - specifically article 15, when read in conjunction with article 16 - it appears that all dual nationals have to comply with one of the four conditions to be eligible for their chosen Association, regardless of whether one or more of their nationalities was acquired by birth, or by some other means. And as such, people born within NI are "dual nationals" within FIFA's understanding, since they automatically qualify for both British and Irish nationality*.

I do not see anything which exempts the FAI from such an interpretation. Rather, by FIFA's studied use of the phrase "...the territory of the relevant Association", I think the clear implication therein actually strengthens the IFA's case.

After all, one might argue over political concepts like 'Nationality', or 'Irishness' etc, but i have no doubt that for FIFA's purposes, the "territory" of the IFA encompasses six of the counties in Ireland, and the "territory" of the FAI the other 26.

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The old Ealing Green had died and a new one has been reborn
as one
who claims he can now read FIFA rules,
and that his wishes are somehow transformed into a rational interpretation of FIFA rules by rubbing extra hard on his "genie".

OR
its the same old Ealing Green and that when he writes "it appears", that actually means in the biblical "Angel Gabriel" sense of appearances.

OR
and that when he writes "I do not see anything" he thinks that everybody else is blind.

OR
That when he writes "i have no doubt that for FIFA's purposes" he is clearly delusional and should be sectioned along with Gazza.

The North are lucky to even have a team;they should just accept the minority of their population who actually want to play for them....

And it's not as if you can blame any Nationalists/'catholics' (Regardless of whether or not, Irish citizens) for not wanting to play for a team, they haven't any affiliation to!

Clear as mud then!

FAI dont seem to concerned:

A spokesman for the FAI added: 'We do not believe there has been any change to FIFA's stated position that any player from Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.'

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Originally Posted by Juanace

Clear as mud then!

FAI dont seem to concerned:

A spokesman for the FAI added: 'We do not believe there has been any change to FIFA's stated position that any player from Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.'

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Can you post the link for this please?

i actually cant believe some people are thinking this would be a great idea???? are ye mad in the head, i wouldnt want to support My country Ireland and have the unionist northerens flying their brit flags. not a hope. and give up national anthem aswell? its already a disgrace that the rugby does it.
Republic Of Ireland.KEEP IT THAT WAY.