Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by legendz

Pat's? Pat's were one of the main culprits in shooting down the A Championship. Pat's and Sligo absolutely detested being required to field a second team in the old A Championship.
Limerick 2008/2010/2011, Sporting Fingal 2009, Finn Harps 2010/2011 and Shelbourne 2010 are examples of First Division clubs who took part in the A Championship without obligation. First Division clubs partaking without obligation would give a glimmer of hope that enough LoI second teams is achievable.

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Long time ago that. I’d say the situation had changed. It will be seen now as another avenue to develop players.

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Originally Posted by joey B

It was just an opinion but that’s quite a while ago and the football landscape has changed a lot since then ,I’d think clubs would definitely find more value in reserves sides with more players staying longer than they would have back then,maybe I’m wrong,Pats underage setup is as good as there is in the league at the minute….

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If Sligo and Pat's were to join a third tier without obligation, it would be a very positive change in the football landscape.
My guesstimation on the likelihood of LoI clubs fielding a second team:
1. Derry, Finn Harps, Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers, Treaty and Cork.
2. Bohemians and Shelbourne.
3. Sligo, Galway, St. Pat's, UCD and Waterford.

I'd be unsure of Sligo and Pat's after they shot down the A Championship. Have Galway any arrangements after the Salthill and Mervue nightmare that might exclude them from fielding a second team?
UCD I'm told already have a U23 policy. Waterford under a change of ownership will be an unknown. A few years back Waterford were building good connection with areas not represented at LoI level. It was a sensible move.
Would Bohs and Shels have the means to field a second team? Stadium developments etc. in the pipeline.

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung, and with the new Pats-Cherry Orchard agreement, they're putting increased focus now on youth development - Treaty and Harps would appear less probable unless either or both are in the Premier when it's established.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Any club with a decent academy should be interested in retaining some of the players from under 19s and also testing some of the better younger players against Men.
Particularly the ones near the top of the table where its obviously harder to blood younger players

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I'd say most university teams are a non-runner. Mostly due to the calendar season.

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Not entirely. It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

I can't see Treaty rushing to take part in a third tier. They seem quite cautious in their approach to things (and more power to them while they try and build foundations). Limerick FC are probably more likely to apply but I'm not sure the appetite is there with the POS Experience either.

As a disclaimer I'm about a million miles away from the pulse of what is happening with Limerick football these days. 🙂

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Originally Posted by culloty82

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung, and with the new Pats-Cherry Orchard agreement, they're putting increased focus now on youth development - Treaty and Harps would appear less probable unless either or both are in the Premier when it's established.

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I would have had UCD higher on the list. A reply a pages back was dismissive of UCD interest. The UCD first team is supposed to be more or less an U23 squad.
Limerick and Harps though First Division clubs at the time elected to take part in the A Championship. Just as Pat's and Sligo are bottom of my list for shooting down the A Championship, Treaty and Harps are top of my list for proactively taking part in the A Championship. (Treaty being the successors to Limerick.) Maybe the football landscape has changed that Pat's and Sligo are now progressive, and that Harps & Treaty are not in a place to be so progressive. If a third tier can be established, we'll then find out for sure, who is progressive and who is not?

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Originally Posted by culloty82

UCD were one of the teams who took the original A Championship most seriously, and indeed won it twice, so not sure why you have them in the bottom rung.

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We didn't compete when a First Division team and we're well on our way back there now, so I think it's unlikely.

Since the A Championship the budget has gone way down, so no outsiders or graduates really.

We have a 19s team and a couple of sides in the LSL; I don't see how a team in the third tier would benefit us tbh.

The players other clubs would put in it are the players we have in our first team

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

I can't see Treaty rushing to take part in a third tier. They seem quite cautious in their approach to things (and more power to them while they try and build foundations). Limerick FC are probably more likely to apply but I'm not sure the appetite is there with the POS Experience either.

As a disclaimer I'm about a million miles away from the pulse of what is happening with Limerick football these days. 🙂

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If Treaty United don't take part in a third tier, if it is formed, they'll be giving Limerick FC a platform to challenge them?

Example "National League":
Carlow Kilkenny*
Cavan Monaghan*
Kildare*
Mayo*
Cork City U23
Derry City U23
Dundalk U23
Finn Harps U23
Shamrock Rovers U23
Treaty United U23
UCC U23
UL U23
NUIG U23

If the third tier is properly branded like a "National League" or whatever is appropriate, there are people in university football circles who would want the prestige of winning it. They probably will have to be enticed a bit by the FAI however.
The Sigerson Cup and Fitzgibbon Cup can have patchy access to players. Universities in a "National League" should have a fully committed squad, if they were to join. I wouldn't be banking on the FAI to sufficiently entice them however.

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Originally Posted by legendz

If Treaty United don't take part in a third tier, if it is formed, they'll be giving Limerick FC a platform to challenge them?

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So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football? Even if that happened Treaty would be better off staying their course for the few years it took the wheels to come off again.

As far as your list of teams goes who specifically are the people in University football circles seeking the prestige you speak of? Also, genuine question, why are you capping UL/UCC etc at U-23? Why can't a hypotetical 25 year old post grad play for them?

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football? Even if that happened Treaty would be better off staying their course for the few years it took the wheels to come off again.

As far as your list of teams goes who specifically are the people in University football circles seeking the prestige you speak of? Also, genuine question, why are you capping UL/UCC etc at U-23? Why can't a hypotetical 25 year old post grad play for them?

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All fair questions and debatable.
If Treaty are intent in having good structures in place, they will see the benefit in an U23 team to bridge the gap from youth to senior. Treaty is in a good place to extend its reach to Clare and North Tipperary. The reference to Limerick FC is just my view of it.
The U23 teams I have listed would have at least five U23 outfield players. I include universities at U23 as they won't be in the youth leagues. Only first teams who are also in the youth leagues should have no age cap.
If UL for example wanted to operate without an age cap, possibly a merger with Limerick FC would be agreeable for both. Rugby has UL Bohemians. Football in a few years might have UL-Limerick FC?

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Originally Posted by legendz

Not entirely. It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

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Never mind the Summer, it's unusual for many of the feckers to stick around campus on a weekend during term time either. Apart from the international students, a large portion have always fecked off back to whatever arsehole village they're from in Carlow, Offaly etc to get their mammy to wash their clothes and feed them the same food they've always eaten, before they head out to the same bar in the village that they've always drank in to hang out with the same lads they always did when they were growing up. A baffling small-town Ireland mindset IMO, especially when you're leaving a major city full of things to do to instead hark back to the womb.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Never mind the Summer, it's unusual for many of the feckers to stick around campus on a weekend during term time either. Apart from the international students, a large portion have always fecked off back to whatever arsehole village they're from in Carlow, Offaly etc to get their mammy to wash their clothes and feed them the same food they've always eaten, before they head out to the same bar in the village that they've always drank in to hang out with the same lads they always did when they were growing up. A baffling small-town Ireland mindset IMO, especially when you're leaving a major city full of things to do to instead hark back to the womb.

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Tell me you're a city boy without telling me you're a city boy.

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

So what though? Are you suggesting that an effectively amateur side should take on the costs of an additional side one division behind their current team just in case POS has the inclination (and the longevity) to try and make another fist at senior football?

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Wasn't POS quietly kicked out of the LoI by the FAI?

I don't see them letting him back in in that case

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Wasn't POS quietly kicked out of the LoI by the FAI?

I don't see them letting him back in in that case

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I feel it's more of a standoff than that tbh. He still has a foot in with the underage leagues. Truthfully I think the FAI just want to outlast him.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Tell me you're a city boy without telling me you're a city boy.

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Tell me you went home to Donegal from university every weekend for your mammy to do your washing without telling me....:D

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Tell me you went home to Donegal from university every weekend for your mammy to do your washing without telling me....:D

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There wasn't a whole lot else to be doing in Athlone, to be fair. Some of us had to work :cool:

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

There wasn't a whole lot else to be doing in Athlone, to be fair. Some of us had to work :cool:

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Remember - Herding cattle isn't work. It's a calling.

Do many of the current LoI clubs have a good link to the local district league?
Ideally, accepting the reality is different, every district league region should have a club at national level. It should be the intention of the FAI to facilitate that as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by legendz

It's not unusual for students to remain on campus during the summer. Especially in the cities.

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Oh, but it is. Where I work has been a ghost town since late May. The only signs of life are admin staff and management, the odd PhD student, a few muggins like myself and whatever groups have hired the use of our facilities. Our other campuses are also pretty empty.

One other reason university teams might not be a straightforward option - multi-campus TUs. Where would Munster TU play/train/draw their teams from - Cork or Tralee? Shannon - Athlone or Limerick? The mergers take about five years to roll out after the institutions are established, so putting a team into the LoI is way down the list of priorities. In time, maybe, with the right encouragement (and if it helps the university's strategy at an acceptable cost) but - and I hadn't though of this till now - is the more likely short-term effect going to be a reduction in the number of college teams? Will GMIT, Sligo and Letterkenny have to compete as Atlantic, or will they be allowed keep their 'local' campus team? Genuinely don't know.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

One other reason university teams might not be a straightforward option - multi-campus TUs. Where would Munster TU play/train/draw their teams from - Cork or Tralee? Shannon - Athlone or Limerick? The mergers take about five years to roll out after the institutions are established, so putting a team into the LoI is way down the list of priorities. In time, maybe, with the right encouragement (and if it helps the university's strategy at an acceptable cost) but - and I hadn't though of this till now - is the more likely short-term effect going to be a reduction in the number of college teams? Will GMIT, Sligo and Letterkenny have to compete as Atlantic, or will they be allowed keep their 'local' campus team? Genuinely don't know.

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If Munster TU did want to join, it could be based on the campus locations e.g. MTU Cork and MTU Tralee.
I had more in mind the larger universities e.g. UCC, UL and NUIG. Would universities be open to football scholarships? I imagine they would have to see some prestige in being part of a "National League". A reserve league wouldn't attract them. U23 teams, with 5 outfield U23, should help with clear messaging that such a league is a step up from U19 to senior level. Allowing first teams with pathway to promotion should help the profile of such a league.