I read it as he's saying he thinks Clerkin is 100% sure, based on "I wouldn't be as sure..."
Maybe Trap can clarify though
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I read it as he's saying he thinks Clerkin is 100% sure, based on "I wouldn't be as sure..."
Maybe Trap can clarify though
I misread what Clerkin said at the end of the article. For whatever reason I did not read the ''Won't they?'' part. I do agree with him though in that I am unsure that we will get a win against Andorra under Kenny.
The question was asked previously, would people change their mind on Kenny if we didnt beat Andorra? I think most people said yes, he'd have to go.
If we beat Andorra and Hungary would it change anyones mind who want him out now?
I think the manner of the wins would be relevant.
I think we need to see evidence of a cogent playing style against Andorra - to beat them playing the passing football Kenny is trying to bring in.
The Hungary game - we know ourselves how unusual results can come up in the last match before a side heads to a major finals
Thats fair, but if the passing game works and it looks like progress is being made?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Who got the A in honours English? Ill accept their understanding of it.
I believe he's just saying that he wants to believe things will get better for Kenny, but he's not wholly convinced it actually will.
The Luxembourg game has only moved me onto the fence, so while I'd see that as a positive, others mightn't see it as enough of one, and I could understand that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I'm not on the fence, I've given up on the Kenny era more or less, other than it being an exercise in giving debuts to players who will hopefully go on and achieve better things for us in the future under another manager.
So for me two good wins would move the dial from "he should just go now" to "he deserves a few more games in the autumn to see if there is any real progress being made". But it would still require a significant upturn in fortunes in the autumn for me to have any wish to see him still in post come the end of the year.
If we fail to beat Andorra I think his position is untenable.
If we beat Andorra and Hungary it would be a step in the right direction, even if we win both ugly.
If we scrape a win against Andorra and lose and are outplayed by Hungary I think he’d have to go.
It will be hopefully the first time (or second after Qatar maybe?) that Kenny will have had a match without some sort of Covid controversy going on.
Our game against Qatar felt like we were starting to get a grip of what Kenny’s system is.
We’ll have a better idea in a week
Well, not beating Andorra would have to be a nail in the coffin. But if he were to go, I’d want him replaced with somebody with the same mindset: somebody committed to Irish teams playing good football and believing we can play good football, and having the nerve to hold tough while the results are bad. You can keep your washed-up last spin on the money-go-round usual suspects.
In some ways, Kenny’s like the latest owner of a used car – the thee previous owners tore the guts out of it, never had it serviced and now nobody can figure out why the Volvo estate isn’t purring like the Merc it never was. To be honest, I think there are some who would want him out even if he won the Euros because, you know, they’re just not the World Cup. In fairness, the criticism he gets here is pretty reasonable and knowledgeable but it’s not the case everywhere.
But, ever the optimist, I’m hoping for a comfortable, albeit low-scoring, win and something bigger than a baby step towards progress.
Putting the outrageously poor results aside, Stephen Kenny's mentality is shocking. He has repeatedly referred to the Slovakia and Serbia games as brilliant performances. WE LOST. it is humiliating that our national team manager references losses as a positive. What does anyone on here really think the players think of him??
Its not outrageous to say it was a good performance in a loss. I thought we were great in that Slovakia game especially, if we had taken our chance we would have won comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Problem is you cant keep saying that with no win in 12
I think it is, if our manager refers to two games we lost. If I'm honest I think Serbia beat us in 2nd gear. He said we were brilliant in that game. That is absolute lunacy.
Whats he supposed to say? "Jaysis lads we really are sh1te, we have no players, what else do ya expect me to do?"
He is a positive person and thinks he has us on right track. Some of us think there are signs of that even in a brutal run of results with a squad that in undergoing a massive rebuilding process.
I wouldn't agree with him that either was a brilliant performance (though we were the better side against Slovakia) but you really can't imagine a situation where a team plays very well and loses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Considering our current squad of players, obtainable managerial alternatives, financial plight of the FAI exacerbated by the COVID pandemic, 2 losses to Andorra and Hungary do not change anything for me.
I’m focused on the long game and am clinging on to the hope that a core of our youngsters mature into superstars over their next 2 to 3 years. These World Cup qualifiers have been written off. Focus should be on building for Euro 2024. I’m content to give Kenny the full Euro 2024, and if no dramatic improvement by then, then it’s time for a change. I am looking for a cohesive performance and progressive embedding of our young talent, who largely have had disappointing season...gut wrenching for Irish fans. Let’s hope for better next season
We drew against Slovakia btw. I thought it was a decent performance with probably the strongest team we've managed to have out under Kenny
There were a number of decent performances - I would say we played reasonably well in at least half of our matches so far. It's a bit shortsighted to just choose to ignore that and point at the results in isolation, as depressing as they have been.
We've clearly had a major problem putting the ball in the net but this predated SK. We were never overly prolific but I think it began to move towards more chronic levels in terms of chances created in the latter half of World Cup qualification campaign under O'Neill, and the subsequent NL was a new low.
In hindsight McCarthy probably managed to get a few of drops of blood from a stone overseeing us score in three of our four games against Denmark and Switzerland! But we had a pitiful goals/chances created return against Georgia and Gibraltar.
The worrying trend regards SK's side is that two of our more dismal performances were amongst our most recent (Bulgaria/Luxembourg). I'd also worry about his forced bullish interviews more recently, for me he's not exuding calm and is starting to look out of his depth. Sighting his CV after the Qatar match wasn't quite Stan territory, but it certainly reminded me of him.
Overall I kind of agree with Tommy above, maybe not to the point I'd give him the full Euros no matter what, but I can see the logic in terms of lack of finances, viable alternatives and the generally accepted view that this was never going to be a quick fix.
True, but it's reached another level in the last 12 months. In the 11 games before Kenny took over, we scored 13 goalsQuote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
In his 11 games in charge, we've scored 4 goals - as many as we scored Mick McCarthy's final 2 games (1 V Denmark, 3 V New Zealand)
Is that because of Kenny or because an old squad is getting older and new players simply aren't coming through to replace them though?
Answer is probably a mix of both - but there's definitely an extent to which this is a continuation of a long-term linear decline, and the nature of long-term linear declines is that the current performance is going to be worse than previous ones.
Yeah, it's hard to dispute the stats too much, but I do think that's a little simplistic. Take the 6 goals in the pretty meaningless friendlies out of Mick's tenure and we're left with 7 in 8 matches, four of which were against Georgia and Gibraltar. Prior to that O'Neill's spell ended with four blanks in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
It can certainly be argued the situation has got worse but was that not inevitable anyway when trying to bed in the likes of Idah (who doesn't start in the Championship) and Connolly (who doesn't really score in the PL), not to mention trying to completely transform our style of play?
On the plus side we have scored three in the last three, so maybe the first sign that the tide is turning a little, albeit a hard sell with the blank against Luxembourg sandwiched in the middle.
Against Andorra things can only go wrong - even if we beat them 6-0 playing amazing football, it means nothing really. But a failure to beat them means a whole lot.
Against Hungary, there's the potential for a good performance to actually mean something.
I don't know, the longer he goes without that first win the more the pressure mounts and it really becomes a thing, even more so than it is already.
I think it's worth playing just to remove the "Stephen Kenny, who's still looking for his first win as Republic of Ireland manager...." from the start of every news report.
I see what you mean in terms of risk versus reward, but just go and win the bloody game - please!
Would I change my mind on Kenny if we beat Andorra and Hungary?
I was very patient with him, acknowledging the lack of quality available to him outside of defence and the need for time to refresh the squad, but I turned on Kenny after Luxembourg. I thought there was a distinct possibility of a draw there (which many others dismissed) but the defeat was crossing a Rubicon.
Andorra is a must win. He's waffled about that in the media, but if he doesn't win it, he can **** off and I don't care where to. Andorra are ****e. Shamrock Rovers should beat them, never mind Ireland.
Hungary are better than people think. A 0-0 draw would be neutral, a score draw would be a positive, and a win would be great. Enough to say he deserves to stay? Not really. He could beat Portugal and I'd still be sceptical that it's a one-off. He needs a series of results to re-establish credibility now. He might get one - God knows he's due a bit of luck - but I wouldn't bet on it.
A loss, draw or a poor winning performance against Andorra (friendly or not) should make his position absolutely untenable. It is only delaying the inevitable anyway.
We did draw with them and played well, we also scored a world class goal against Serbia. But the overall package has been disaster. We were deservedly beaten by Luxembourg in Dublin. We are already out of the world cup. Two games and its Goodnight irene. That has never happened before in my lifetimeQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well that's fair enough, though I was replying to your suggestion that we lost to Slovakia
TrapAPony's signature could be applied to the outcome there I think - "We lost because we didn't win". :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
They'll just add "competitive" to that statement before the word win regardless of what happens next week. And to be fair he has had nine competitive games and he hasn't won any of them so it's fair enough to open every report with that line I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
His managerial term has been an absolute disaster up to now.
Those still in the pro kenny camp are just desperate for a change in style of play, and are clinging onto the hope of hopes that kenny is that man to deliver it. There's been no suggestion thus far that he is the man, in fact its been completely the opposite. But if you have a fantasy and you feel that fantasy can play out, you'll go to the depths to make it seem plausible and likely. So whether theres really a belief in Kenny being able to do it, it doesnt really matter, the main thing is that its a route to the realisation of their fantasy.
I don't believe in the sake of playing youth/young players just for the sake of playing the younger players. We can replace A with B or B with C at the moment but A is just as ordinary as C. If all these caps were leading to someone standing out and gaining experience then I'd say ya, but there's really no one that has done that.
If he loses tonight, I still think he will manage to stay on, unless he decides himself that it really is too big a job and walks. I don't seem him being pushed or fired. If we win tonight or against Hungary next week I don't think it changes much. His start has been disastrous, people have even forgotten about the poor penalty display and what seems like a lack of preparation because things have only got more and more desperate since that game. The only way he can turn it around now is to see a win against Serbia and a draw against Portugal, its been so bad it has to get pretty good very quickly.
Who, specifically, has been arguing to play young players for the sake of playing young players and which older players, specifically, have been omitted for the sake of it?
No one did, you did mention 14 different players having played the last two games, or something to that effect. It has been suggested that he has brought a lot of youth through, and given many new caps, I'm saying that thats not necessarily of any real benefit as no one has stood out. The argument that suggests this has been a positive is not one I would agree with.
He hasn't had a lot of choice in the matter. His hand has been forced time and again by a combination of Covid and injuries.
If i remember correctly, there were a few of us that were surprised with his first squad and how few new/young players were actually brought in. A gradual transition may have been his plan but it all changed rapidly for the reasons above. I think people don't give enough credence to the hand he has been dealt and how it might have impacted whatever plan he had.
I echo Charlies question though - I am not sure who these better, older players are that are being left out. Thats an important part of the equation that is being presented. I wanted McGeady in the squad for Serbia/Luxembourg but even that was marginal. I cant think of many other glaring omissions.
OK so you don't agree with the argument that nobody has made. I think there was a bit of optimism maybe 18 months ago that some of the 21s were going to bash the door down and become top senior players right away, but I haven't really seen that continue as it's become obvious they're not matching those optimistic expectations.
Call me cynical (I've been called worse) but it strikes me that some of the younger prospects are not freally forcing their way into playing week in week out, and really driving their careers on.
They are all probably on relatively decent money for sitting on the bench at their clubs in the uk. In days gone by we had the likes of Aldridge and Houghton playing for Oxford but really working hard to achieve something. There seems to be a handy career available money-wise in knocking about the lower reaches of english football.
I woukd have started McGrath as he's bang in form and playing regularly
He went with a very green midfield vs Luxembourg, but the older alternatives were a mix of injured or badly off the boil. McClean, Hendrick, McCarthy, Hourihane, and Arter have all been discussed at length here, I think, with some people happy to put some or all of them out to pasture. I've argued that they're overrating the younger players and underrating the older ones, so this is not my opinion, but I've definitely read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Harry Arter in paeans of praise for Kenny and his methods:
https://m.sundayworld.com/sport/socc...-40505915.html
The love not so subtle dig at the previous management in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
Ya it read a little bit like a PR exercise, one mainly for Harry Arter but if he's willing to be there end of a strange season then there must be some truth in how he feels.
It was all downhill for those u21 starlets after they came a cropper against the doughty Icelanders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin