Celtic Cup thread

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03/02/2011, 6:55 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Don't think he qualifies.

As I understand it, someone is automatically eligible from birth for Irish citizenship law if he, or a parent, was born in Ireland (either part). And it is this automatic entitlement which makes a player eligible to represent ROI, under FIFA's Article 15.

Whereas if someone only has a Grandparent born in Ireland (either part), then he may apply for Irish citizenship and will normally be granted it - especially if he's a decent footballer! - but it is not automatic. Therefore such players do not qualify for ROI under Article 15.

Instead, they have to rely on Article 18 (refers to someone switching Nationality), which as well as requiring the applicant to hold the relevant citizenship, also requires that he either have a (biological) parent/grandfather born within the jurisdiction of the Association in question, or have resided there for a minimum period.

Camp's connection to Ireland is, I believe, a Belfast-born grandfather.

The eligibility rule does not refer to jurisdiction, it refers to territory.
As I already pointed out, the eligibility rule that allows Alex Bruce (who has a belfast born grandmother) to qualify for us in 2006, has remained unchanged/unaltered.
Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if - 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
As it stands now, Camp qualifies for both the FAI and IFA. Having a grandparent born anywhere on the island, qualifies as being born on the territory from which the FAI can draw upon.

Also the eminent Howard Wells has already made noise to FIFA in 2007 about Alex Bruce.
"This is an issue to do with player eligibility according to FIFA's own rules. It is a principle that needs to be resolved based on player eligibility, so that it is applied consistently.
"Alex Bruce is a player we have asked FIFA and the Republic to clarify but it is not about individuals, it is about the principle."
04/02/2011, 6:12 AM
ifk101

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.

However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.
04/02/2011, 7:39 AM
bennocelt

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Camp's connection to Ireland is, I believe, a Belfast-born grandfather.

Didnt Alan kernaghan qualify for us cause his grandparent was born during the time of the free state (all Ireland) team?
04/02/2011, 8:12 AM
Duggie

is RTE not showing highlights of tue nights game????? i cant see it in any tv listings other than its on sky sports??????
04/02/2011, 10:23 AM
Eminence Grise

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennocelt

Didnt Alan kernaghan qualify for us cause his grandparent was born during the time of the free state (all Ireland) team?

Close: his grandfather was born (in Belfast, I think) before the enactment of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the creation of the Free State. There would have been an all-island team at that time, but obviously it split after 1922.

(Been doing some research on the Treaty lately: it never defined nationality, only the conditions for citizenship, and citizens were automatically British subjects... Makes the GFA look like bedtime reading in places!!)
04/02/2011, 11:03 AM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggie

is RTE not showing highlights of tue nights game????? i cant see it in any tv listings other than its on sky sports??????

There are highlights on RT� 2 at 23:45 for an hour.

The game is being televised live on the Welsh channel S4/C, which is channel 134 on the Sky package.
04/02/2011, 12:02 PM
Closed Account

Fats in for Treacy
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...d-2525856.html

Code:

Given Westwood Coleman Dunne St Ledger Clark S Kelly Wilson O'Shea O'Dea Lawrence Whelan Green Duff Walters Gibson McCarthy Fahey Keane Doyle Long Best
04/02/2011, 12:27 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.

However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.

Age doesn't matter. Much more likely, if there is a delay, that the paperwork is with FIFA.
04/02/2011, 12:46 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

The eligibility rule does not refer to jurisdiction, it refers to territory.

My mistake - I was too lazy to check. However, the error is not material (see below).

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

As I already pointed out, the eligibility rule that allows Alex Bruce (who has a belfast born grandmother) to qualify for us in 2006, has remained unchanged/unaltered.

I do not know how exactly AB qualified for ROI (nor do you, btw), but from memory, I don't think the IFA formally objected to AB playing for them (though they did take the opportunity to raise questions etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if - 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
As it stands now, Camp qualifies for both the FAI and IFA. Having a grandparent born anywhere on the island, qualifies as being born on the territory from which the FAI can draw upon.

Dear oh dear, Geysir. Did you really think that you could slip so artificial a construction at that (highlighted) past me?

Players like Gibson etc do not qualify to represent the FAI because of the "territory" from which they come, it is because of their Nationality i.e. they automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, thereby satisfying Article 15. But anyone born anywhere in the world who has a parent born in Ireland also has automatic right to Irish citizenship from birth. Therefore by your logic/construction, the whole of the rest of the world must constitute "FAI territory", since it is "territory from which the FAI can draw upon".

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Also the eminent Howard Wells has already made noise to FIFA in 2007 about Alex Bruce.
"This is an issue to do with player eligibility according to FIFA's own rules. It is a principle that needs to be resolved based on player eligibility, so that it is applied consistently.
"Alex Bruce is a player we have asked FIFA and the Republic to clarify but it is not about individuals, it is about the principle."

Seeing as how in the past you have composed countless posts decrying the knowledge and authority of Wells etc, it is a bit rich for you now to cite him as supporting your case...

Anyhow, it is frankly ridiculous for you to claim that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI" and deep down, I suspect even you know that.

For if it were not so, why do eg Derry City continue to be members of the IFA, even despite their being "Irish" and playing in the LOI etc? Why would any player who transfers from an NI club to an ROI club (or v.v.) be required to obtain international clearance? Why, should the IFA eg impose a complete playing ban on a player for a serious offence, may that ban also be extended worldwide, including in ROI? Why, when a player in NI is disciplined by the IFA, may he not appeal to the FAI? Why, if it constitutes its "own territory", doesn't the FAI organise within NI? Why does FIFA make separate development grants to the FAI and IFA? Why do FIFA/UEFA permit referees from NI to officiate at games between ROI and Scotland/Wales/England, for instance? Why isn't the FAI entitled to automatic representation on the IFAB, whilst the IFA is?

P.S. The above questions are rhetorical, therefore I do not expect you to strain language and logic in order to come up with dung like "the territory from which the FAI can draw upon" in reply...
04/02/2011, 12:54 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Age doesn't matter. Much more likely, if there is a delay, that the paperwork is with FIFA.

It does matter if you are switching association.

Anyways the IFA have been asked to provide extra material to support Camp's eligibility. What that extra material is I do not know, one can only speculate.
04/02/2011, 1:11 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

It does matter if you are switching association.

No, it doesn't - you need to re-visit the current Statutes as you appear to be confused.
04/02/2011, 1:11 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

It does matter if you are switching association.

Anyways the IFA have been asked to provide extra material to support Camp's eligibility. What that extra material is I do not know, one can only speculate.

The age restriction for switching associations has been lifted in June 2009
'Change of association (art. 18 of the Regulations Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes)
58% of the Congress members approved an amendment to the current article. So far, players eligible to change associations in order to play for another national team could only do so until their 21st birthday. The Congress has now decided to lift this age limit, but has maintained all the other provisions of art. 18.'
04/02/2011, 1:22 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Ordinarily Lee Camp would be eligible for both the FAI and IFA.

Camp qualifies for NI by virtue of a Belfast-born grandfather. Assuming that the g/f was born post-1921, under which of FIFA's Articles would that mean he is eligible to represent the FAI? (And please don't insult everyones intelligence by repeating Geysir's effort, above).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

However there has been quite a long hold up in Lee Camp's switch to the IFA. Either he doesn't have an Irish born granny or perhaps his previous registration with the English FA is stopping the switch due to Camp's current age.

The FA has made it quite clear, to both player and IFA, that they have no interest/involvement/objection to his switching to the IFA.

There are two reasons why it is taking so long. First, following the removal of the ban on over-21's switching Associations (Summer 2009?), there was a rush of applications from newly eligible players which seems to have overwhelmed the department at FIFA which deals with this. Indeed, they had to take emergency measures to fast-track players to play in the 2010 World Cup (eg one of the Boateng brothers switching from Germany to Ghana). This in turn seems to have led to the backlog in dealing with "non-urgent" applications which led eg to Shane Duffy having to wait longer than usual.

And with subsequent tournaments like the African and Asian Championships in recent months, it seems the backlog continues. Nonetheless, it was expected that Camp's clearance would ordinarily have come through by now, since he had lodged all the usual documentation with FIFA some time ago.

However, now that FIFA have finally got round to scrutinising his application, they are now querying why his grandfather's surname is different from his own. Of course, this is because Camp's NI grandfather is on his maternal side (doh!), but they nonetheless demanded that Camp dig out his parents' marriage certificate and send it to FIFA before they will stamp the application.

This bureaucratic delay is intensely frustrating for all concerned, especially since with Taylor currently injured, he'd almost certainly have featured against Scotland next week. However, should he not be cleared in time for our Euro 2012 qualifiers at the end of March, then there should be Hell to pay, since that means it will have taken 6 months and considering it should be a straightforward one, with no other Association objecting etc, there could be no excuse.

If nothing else, those b a s tards at FIFA surely owe us one by now...
04/02/2011, 1:24 PM
paul_oshea

deja vu...and here we go again :rolleyes:
04/02/2011, 1:26 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Seeing as how in the past you have composed countless posts decrying the knowledge and authority of Wells etc, it is a bit rich for you now to cite him as supporting your case...

Again you demonstrate your chronic inability to understand the obvious.
I was not using Wells to support my case, I merely demonstrated that the legally inept IFA boss had already requested FIFA for clarification on Alex Bruce's eligibility.

Quote:

Anyhow, it is frankly ridiculous for you to claim that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI" and deep down, I suspect even you know that.

I don't claim that at all.
But under a definition of a territory that the FAI can draw its players from, then the Island of Ireland is that territory according to FIFA.
It is the territory, that by being born in, automatically qualifies one for Irish citizenship.

Quote:

For if it were not so, why do eg Derry City continue to be members of the IFA, even despite their being "Irish" and playing in the LOI etc? Why would any player who transfers from an NI club to an ROI club (or v.v.) be required to obtain international clearance? Why, should the IFA eg impose a complete playing ban on a player for a serious offence, may that ban also be extended worldwide, including in ROI? Why, when a player in NI is disciplined by the IFA, may he not appeal to the FAI? Why, if it constitutes its "own territory", doesn't the FAI organise within NI? Why does FIFA make separate development grants to the FAI and IFA? Why do FIFA/UEFA permit referees from NI to officiate at games between ROI and Scotland/Wales/England, for instance? Why isn't the FAI entitled to automatic representation on the IFAB, whilst the IFA is?

Irrelevant to the international eligibility issue as most of us already aware, especially the ones who have a basic understanding of the eligibility rules.
Deal with the obvious eligibility of Bruce, already scrutinised by FIFA at the behest of the IFA and work it out from there.
Rational approach above waffle and surmises, any day.
04/02/2011, 1:42 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

deja vu...and here we go again :rolleyes:

You can rest your laurels on the eligibility issue after your accurate prediction of the FIFA compromise, way back in the day.
04/02/2011, 1:47 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Deal with the obvious eligibility of Bruce, already scrutinised by FIFA at the behest of the IFA and work it out from there.
Rational approach above waffle and surmises, any day.

Indeed. Take a leaf out of your own book, and have a look at the eligibility Statutes, as they applied when Bruce was making decisions.

Such a rational approach may lead you to conclude that you were previously talking out of your hoop.
04/02/2011, 2:06 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Players like Gibson etc do not qualify to represent the FAI because of the "territory" from which they come, it is because of their Nationality i.e. they automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, thereby satisfying Article 15. But anyone born anywhere in the world who has a parent born in Ireland also has automatic right to Irish citizenship from birth. Therefore by your logic/construction, the whole of the rest of the world must constitute "FAI territory", since it is "territory from which the FAI can draw upon".

But does Gibson's nationality not derive entirely from the territory in which he was born (notwithstanding certain discriminatory exemptions)?
04/02/2011, 2:07 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

I don't claim that [i.e. that NI constitutes the "territory of the FAI"] at all.

Well if you want to recruit players like Camp, then you will have to. For Article 17 requires just that, namely:

Any player who refers to art. 15 par.1 to assume a new nationality... ... shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
(a ) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b ) His biological mother ot biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c ) His grandfather or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d ) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Players like Darron Gibson (born in Ireland) or Anton Rogers (son of someone born in Ireland) qualify for the FAI under Article 15, since they are automatically Irish citizens from birth. Camp is not automatically an Irish citizen, since a grandfather is not adequate to confer citizenship on him automatically at birth .

Of course, Camp could always apply for Irish citizenship and expect to be successful. But the fact of his having to apply means that he does not qualify under Article 15, as eg Gibson and Rogers do.

Consequently Camp would be "assuming a new Nationality", therefore he would need to satisfy the criteria of Article 17 (above). And by any rational reading of the language of Art.17, in Camp's case, his grandfather would have to have been born "on the territory of the relevant Association" for Camp to be eligible to represent the relevant Association (FAI).

So which is it, Geysir? Is NI within the "territory of the FAI" or is it not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

But under a definition of a territory that the FAI can draw its players from, then the Island of Ireland is that territory according to FIFA.
It is the territory, that by being born in, automatically qualifies one for Irish citizenship.

Where in FIFA's eligibility articles do they include the phrase "a territory that [an Association may] draw its players from"?

Be honest, in order to defend your claim, you were forced to make it up.

And I have to say, it wasn't even a very intelligent fabrication, either. For if you take eg England, Scotland, Holland and USA, those are all "territories" which the FAI "draws its players from", but that hardly means that any of them constitute the "territory of the relevant Association " [FAI], as per Article 17.
04/02/2011, 2:14 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Indeed. Take a leaf out of your own book, and have a look at the eligibility Statutes, as they applied when Bruce was making decisions.

Such a rational approach may lead you to conclude that you were previously talking out of your hoop.

You are way too hasty, I have already referred to the old rule, annex 901 which is unchanged, now known as article 17.

Annex 901 became article 17 , 17c eligible if- 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
It goes without saying that he would have to acquire Irish nationality.
Changing associations from FA to FAI would then follow article 18, and the only change of note there is the lifting of the age restriction.

short edit.
The grandparent and parent are automatic Irish citizens. As I mentioned, the whole island is the relevant territory in nationality and eligibility speak.
We were confused by this before but the Bruce case can not be ignored. Not only are all Island born entitled to declare for the FAI but their descendants born abroad are entitled to declare.

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