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Biggest Cop Out ever!!! Don't FIFA rules state that even if a players club claim that he is injured, he can still be called up by his national side to be examined by their medical staff!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
Had to convince Ferguson my arse. More BS excuses from the Roy Keane brigade!!
Lads I have said it before, Duff and McGeady missed the Italian game and played on the following Sat for their clubs. Should they be accused of feigning injury.
Come in Neil, you're not that naive. Have they done it 30 times? Do you reckon Giggs was injured for 40 Wales friendlies?
Duff would walk on coals to play for Ireland. It's about the only team he can play for that doesn't get thumped these days for a start.
I honestly do not believe that Keane could have travelled and played for Ireland away to Iran. I think he played injured in the home game.
Here's the thing- these guys play so many games that they are rarely 100%. If it's a qualifier or a league match they'll play through at 70% or 80%, but why play in needless friendlies (especially if you've proven your worth to the national team as Keane/Giggs had)?
I admire guys like Given and Kilbane that want to play every game, but I can also see the other side of the coin.
I play 20 games in a season at a very low level and I'm glad of a rest at the end of it- I can only imagine life as a pro where you're putting your body through 40 games of top flight football when you add in pre-season, cup play, and internationals.
He certainly looked to be at half pace in the home leg.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Why would you even feel a need to honestly believe something you know little about. An honest belief should look to the wider picture of evidence.
Mick's principles, sense of duty and honour have never been compromised. People can question his football brain at the time and his ability to handle outrageous egos, but I have not come across anybody who could question his honesty and dignity.
Maybe there was a perception flying around with Mick that Keane didn't exactly agitate too hard to go to Iran. Maybe the Keane version of the "deal" didn't resonate with McCarthy's version and his expectations of his captain.
Maybe it was totally outside Mick's comprehension that a captain would want to leave pretraining facilities before a WC. Maybe the final straw was passed when Mick had to persuade his captain to stay in the middle of the night. Maybe Mick's perception of everything to do with Keane had turned blacker than black.
Maybe Mick should have gone for a long walk.
Roy was within 3 minutes of leaving when nobody had accused him of cheating. Keane's clinging to the cheating slur justification is a cop out, a denial of what had gone on before. Anybody here who has had to deal with provocative teenagers knows only too well that psychology.
Read my previous posts on this and you will see that I can understand why McCarthy made those allegations to Keane. Keanes criticisms of Mc Carthys professionalism were and are as cutting as Mc Carthys comment to Keane in front of the players. If I was Pat Kenny last week it would have been the exact comment I would have asked. Did you not think that Mick Mc Carthy was every bit as hurt by your public comments, as you were by his comments at the team meeting about the Iran game.
Still does not get away from my other point in that I do not think Keane pulled out of the 2nd leg for no reason. I believe he was injured and not fit to play.
Personally if I was captain of my country I would have gone to Tehran even if I couldn't play. Roy was a key figure - as captain he could use his experience to guide, motivate and marshall the younger, less experienced players. Iran away was the most hostile environment we've played in during the modern era. It was a one off match that we had to survive (i.e not lose by more than one goal) to get to the world cup, it was like a mini world cup final. The team we had lacked major top level experience: Shay Given; Steve Finnan, Ian Harte, Gary Breen, Steve Staunton, Mark Kinsella, Jason McAteer, Matt Holland, David Connolly, Robbie Keane, Kevin Kilbane. Only McAteer and Stan had played at an international tournament. While players like Harte and McAteer had some Champions League experience noone had the wealth of experience of Roy Keane.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Like I say I'd still have gone to Tehran myself even if I couldnt play due to injury. I'm no fan of Drogba but I remember him down at the Munich touchline of the Ivory Coast - Serbia Game at the last world cup. He was suspended having picked up two yellows vs Argentina and Holland. But he was in the dug out encouraging the less experienced players motivating them at half time etc. And this was in an essentially meaningless match - both teams were out. I remember seeing Arshavin doing the same during the early matches of Euro 2008 (which he was suspended for) and Cannavaro doing it for the Italians at Euro 2008 (injured before it).
The reason was he had a far more important game to play for MU against Leicester, 2 days later. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Big Difference between being in the dugout at a major championship that you are already at then there is in flying on about a 6 hour flight over and back and missing out on treatment at Man Utd. Your comparisions are not valid for that reason at all. Also I do not think that Roy Keane was that typeof captain for Ireland to be honest. Thats the way he was and everybody is different. It goes back again to the point. Was he fit to play in the 2nd leg, No. Did he play through injury in the first leg yes as can be seen by his performance. Is he the only player who has missed a Wed game and played for his club on the Saturday, NO, it actually happened in the last Ireland match.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Players at big clubs like United play alot more games in a season that players at smaller clubs because of european football and the big clubs usually go further in the domestic cups too.I think the Giggs situation at Wales was a bit extreme because I dont think he ever played a friendly, but I dont blame the players at some of the big clubs missing out on friendlies sometimes..... even as a fan it can be a hassle to go to some of the meaningless friendliesQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I agree wholeheartedly with all of your post. This part I agree with too. Added to the fact that he almost certainly felt that receiving treatment for him in Manchester would have been better for his long term fitness, he was, as has been made out in various biographies and articles, a bit of a loner. He didn't really socialise with the rest of the squad. He might have gone to Tehran and given a rousing speech, but the fact is he was primarily a captain on the pitch. He probably felt that the players would be just as well off without him on the trip to Tehran and he would be fine flying back to Manchester for recuperation.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Whether or not he should have travelled is a moot point for me, he did look a bit below pace in the first leg but he also played 90 minutes 3 days after the second and seemed to be fine (maybe down to extra treatment recieved).Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
However, him buggering off by his own admission after the first leg without so much as wishing the rest of the squad luck for the second leg was a deriliction of his dut as captian for me and makes a mockery of the 'ultimate professional' tag that gets bandied about. Keane was a superb captain on the pitch but a lousy one off it for me.
I was going to make the same point until I read your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Spot on. Keane had been injured for a month, then played in the 1st leg nowhere near fully fit and needed treatment on the injury asap afterwards. He would probably have been out for longer if he went on that pointless (for him) trip to Iran.
Agree totally. It surprises me that so few people ever pick up on this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
That point is fair but it does not constitute feigning injury. Did Keane leave after the 1st leg in the best circumstances. No, is Roy Keane perfect No. Did he make mistakes for Ireland as captain, yes loads of them. Did Mick McCarthy do a good job for Ireland, yes. Did he make loads of mistakes as manager yes. Was he right to insult Roy Keane in front of his team mates with an allegation of feigning injury. No Was Roy Keane previous to that right in slamming the facilities in front of the media in interviews with the Irish Times, No he was not.
This whole case was a sorry scenario were the two main guys did not behave properly in my view. The problem is so many people wish to see this either from a Roy Keane was right on Mick Mc Carthy was right perspective. Like loads of things the truth is in the grey, not the black and white.
how do you know this to be fact? no one other than Roy and the players know what happened yet some people quote heresay as factQuote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
who cares about the off-field stuff. he led by example on the pitch and thats where it counts. rousing speeches in the dressing room and all that are forgotten 5 mins into the match. which is more important... wishing players good luck or his tackle in the first min v overmars in '01?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
It's been widely reported as being true. I'm not sure whether there's an official source proving it, but I think it's generally been taken as being true due to the volume of people who have said that's what happened. Keane clearly wasn't a flawless individual and it doing this wouldn't surprise me too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
How do you know he gave rousing speeches in the dressing room? Surely only the players know what he did in the dressing room? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Edit: Whoops, just realised I completely misread your post.
Keane himself admitted it in his interview on Dunphy's show in 2003, it's common knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
As for the Overmars tackle, that's yet another myth propogated by the media love in with RK, the Dutch ran us ragged following that tackle with Overmars in particular central to that, ending up with us going down to 10 men because of his form. Luck had far more to do with us keeping a clean sheet that first half then a foul committed in the first minute that Keane was lucky to escape a booking for.
For the record, I do think Keane was immense that day, I just don't believe that that tackle set the tone or had any bearing whatsoever on the way the gamne panned out.
exactly, jesus some of the posters in this site are so pettyQuote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
re Keane in every game he has played for Ireland, esp V Holland, and remember the time he took us by the sruff of the neck V Cyprus