Eligibility Rules, Okay

Thats interesting. It seemed an annual occurence that I had to listen to crap about Nacho Novo representing Scotland because he's lived there for 5 years+

EDIT: Sorry missed another page of posts. That was in reference to Wales' response on the Swansea player.

So, in reality the gentleman's agreement was 'if Harry agrees'.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Not only is it downright hypocritical, it also appears ignorant of the fact that British citizenship is a prerequisite to eligibility for the IFA. Just because some of these players might have been born in Derry (pure speculation anyway!) doesn't necessarily mean they are entitled to British citizenship (or are potentially eligible to play for the IFA, in other words). Indeed, to be entitled to British citizenship, their parents would have had to been British citizens or legally resident in the UK at the time of their birth. Conor McCormack's maternal side of his family were born and bred north of the border, as far as I know, which is why he's both eligible for British citizenship and to play for NI; his eligibility is not simply by virtue of his birth in Newry. Dale Gorman's father also happens to be Tony; not Dessie...

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The mod wasn't our 'hating' friend was it? Otherwise entirely predictable...

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Didn't the IFA cease selecting players from the Irish Free State/Republic for both British Home Championship games and FIFA competitions by 1952 though? (See paragraph 53 of the Kearns judgment.) As far back as 1946, eligibility for FIFA competitions was governed by article 21, al. 2 of the Regulations of the FIFA, which read as follows:

The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent.

This was made very clear to the IFA by Ivo Shricker, the then-general secretary of FIFA, in a letter to them dated the 17th of April, 1951.

I would imagine the rule in place during the 1970s was very much similar in effect, in that I don't see how non-British citizens might have been considered by the IFA to be eligible to play for the IFA. There was no reason for the FAI to fear the IFA (at least not on legal basis) or to think the IFA were free to do what they liked as the IFA had already been brought fully under the jurisdiction of FIFA by that point. Likewise, the FAI would have had nothing to fear in selecting McGeough as they wouldn't have been falling foul of any rule in doing so, but perhaps you're right in that they feared some IFA backlash or quasi-diplomatic incident even if it doesn't appear rational when viewed through the optic of the modern-day context. I wonder what ever became of the letter McGeough penned to FIFA... If FIFA had sanctioned his wish to play for the FAI, then what could the IFA have done about it? It's not as if he was tied to them or anything.

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I'll have to recheck 'Green Is The Colour' to confirm, but I'm fairly sure the eligibility remained very murky beyond the FIFA proclamation. As Co.Down Green alluded to, the case of Dougan and others in 'All Ireland teams' confirms as much, and, to my recollection, the IFA continued to try and assert their authority over who could play where and protest the FIFA ruling for decades after.

Combined with FIFA trying, not always successfully, to assert authority with the over the old British order and the FAI still trying to establish widespread legitimacy in the face of IFA bleating, I could see why a letter from Cavan might lead to them leaving McGeough alone. While within their rights to pick him, they may just not have wanted the hassle at the time.

Anyway that's merely a suspicion right now, I'll have a look tonight and try to confirm.

You're possibly right that the FAI just didn't want the hassle of getting on the wrong side of Cavan. Who knows? It's all very interesting though.

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Originally Posted by geysir

So, in reality the gentleman's agreement was 'if Harry agrees'.

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Haha, it would appear so.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

The mod wasn't our 'hating' friend was it? Otherwise entirely predictable...

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Which ones don't hate? :p

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Originally Posted by co. down green

QUOTE=DannyInvincible;1612994]
Cast an eye back to the Brazil v 'All Ireland team' in 1973 and the reaction and influence of Cavan on the staging of that game. Derek Dougan, who had helped organise the game, later maintained that IFA President Harry Cavan had instructed the then NI manager Terry Neill never to pick him for another NI international.

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Dougan told half a story - leaving out some material facts.

Namely:

1. He hadn't featured in the previous 5 Northern Ireland International matches before the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.
2. He hadn't scored in his previous 10 International appearances for Northern Ireland.
and
3. He was 35 years old at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

In short, Dougan was finished as an International footballer at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Dougan told half a story - leaving out some material facts.

Namely:

1. He hadn't featured in the previous 5 Northern Ireland International matches before the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.
2. He hadn't scored in his previous 10 International appearances for Northern Ireland.
and
3. He was 35 years old at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

In short, Dougan was finished as an International footballer at the time of the Shamrock Rovers XI v Brazil game.

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Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?

'James McClean right to play for Republic of Ireland: Sports Minister': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-16184631.html

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Northern Ireland Sports Minister Caral Ni Chuilin has backed the stance of Londonderry-born footballer James McClean to play for the Republic of Ireland and not the country of his birth.

Sunderland winger McClean, 23, angered Northern Ireland followers earlier this year by becoming the latest in a growing line of players to go south rather than stay with his native north, despite playing in under age teams for the latter when he was with Derry City.

It was a story that made front page news and a decision that angered Northern Ireland followers. McClean even received death threats on Twitter. He hit back at critical supporters on his social network site before it was closed down.

“I think it is regrettable that it caused so much media attention,” said Ni Chuilin.

“At the end of the day my position on this remains very clear – I would much prefer an all Ireland team but that's a matter for the IFA and FAI. James or any other soccer player should be allowed to play for whoever they want. Those are the Fifa rules.”

Asked if McClean helped the volatile situation by hitting back at fans, she said: “I'm not going to comment on that but I'm sure he will learn from it and others will too. The point that he and his family have made is that he chose the team he wished to play for. I respect that choice.”

The subject of players born, bred and coached in Northern Ireland deciding to declare for the Republic remains a hot topic, and has been mentioned at Stormont many times.

When pressed if anything could be done in order to stop the flow south, the minister made her position clear.

“I won't be rolling back on the Good Friday Agreement commitment. If anything I'll be trying to ensure that it is honoured as well as applying the Fifa rules,” she insisted.

“The question we need to be asking is what does the Northern Ireland team need to do to make sure it is the team that everybody wants to play for and at the minute there is still a reluctance within nationalist com

munities to play for the Northern Ireland team because of the association to things they wouldn't normally identify with.”

It does not take a brain surgeon to work out she is referring there to the national anthem of God Save The Queen which is played before every Northern Ireland international.

She adds: “I also know that there are young men who just want to win international caps and it is not a political decision for them and they will play with whoever they are most comfortable with and that's ok as well, but this theory that young people from here should play for the North of Ireland team regardless isn't a realistic |proposition.

“I don't know if that will change. I think we need to have a mature discussion around it and to see how everyone including political leaders can make the choices easier without making players feel guilty or pigeon holing them because of the choices they make either way.”

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Good on yer man re. McClean.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?

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The bitterest pill and all that...

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Originally Posted by Steven Beacom

It does not take a brain surgeon to work out she is referring there to the national anthem of God Save The Queen which is played before every Northern Ireland international.

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Off topic but Beacom really is a terrible writer.

His first two paragraphs genuinely read like a wind-up.

Amazed that the BT is still wringing any news still out of this story. Always thought of it as a unionist rag, but some of the pieces and comments appear otherwise...

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Off topic but Beacom really is a terrible writer.

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Yeah that sentence made me laugh too. It doesn't take a brain surgeon no, a mere simpleton could come to that conclusion!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Did Cavan instruct Neill never to select him again on account of his organisation of and participation in the game though?

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I honestly don't know DC.

Participation didn't seem to hinder the International careers of Messrs Jennings, Hunter, Hamilton, etc. Hamilton, of course, went on to manage his country.

Derek liked a good yarn.

Don't we all...
;)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Are you aware of any claims of a gentleman's agreement having existed back then or did they simply tell players they weren't eligible to play for the FAI?

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They were simply told by the IFA that they had the right to refuse their request to play for Ireland. Don't know any more specific details that that & the player(s) took the answer at face value, eventhough it was clearly untrue. Sounds to me like the IFA & Cavan bluffed their way on the issue and got away with it. A Gentleman's agreement was never mentioned and it seems to have been more the case of the IFA claiming that they were 'unwilling to allow' players born in the north to represent Ireland. A formal agreement, or any other rule specifically barring them from playing for Ireland was never mentioned, simply that the IFA would not allow it!

The FAI seem to have been unwilling to pursue the issue at the time for whatever reason, but were obviously fully aware that there was nothing officially stopping players from playing.

From your correspondance with McGeough and in his interview there is also no mention of any 'gentlemans agreement' and the excuse of needing him for upcoming World cup qualifiers was clearly just a fudge.

Had the FAI forced the issue at the time no doubt the reality of the eligibility rules would have been a lot clearer to all. Harry Cavan had a massive influence in FIFA at the time and it sounds to me that this was used to mask the actual rules on player eligibility.

The McGeough case and the other i've mentioned perhaps explains why it did not arise again until the mid 90's when it looks like the FAI finally decided to force the issue, and thereafter we had the statement from IFA president Jim Boyce in 1999 accepting that the IFA had no control over a players right to play for Ireland.

That would appear to be the gist of the 'gentleman's agreement' matter.

Slightly off topic hockey player on Radio Ulster this morning changed form Ireland to GB, seemingly had to go through a 3 year (I think) probation period before he was allowed to play. He had a serious injury so may be it was at the same time or maybe I am doing him an injustice. Had 90 odd caps for Ireland

Was he entitled to a UK passport or did he need to meet residency criteria like Eoin Morgan?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Was he entitled to a UK passport or did he need to meet residency criteria like Eoin Morgan?

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Pretty sure he was born in NI