Stephen Ireland

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He didn't run Aston Villa in to the ground like a lot of people think. He done as good a job as Lambert is doing and look at the amount of silly signings he's made. As someone else pointed out, Aston Villa might have scored ten less goals under McLeish in the League but they conceded sixteen more under Lambert the following season. So much for steadying the ship. :rolleyes: For all the Villa fans vitriol, three more points was the difference between the McLeish and Lambert reigns, and Villa are in another relegation battle this year after wasting money left, right and centre on unproven players and ostracising several other experienced pros.

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Statistics are not the full story.

Statistics do not show how thoroughly lily-livered McLeish was as Villa manager. How he regularly set his teams up, against even middling opposition, with no plan or conception of winning the game. How he had zero attacking plan throughout his reign. How he often shrugged his shoulders post-game and pretty much said 'ah well, we're just a small club, my hands are tied' when he was well supported financially, had a much stronger squad than Lambert and yet was completely cowardly in his usage of it.

Just go back and watch Villa under McLeish and then watch them under Lambert. Still limited? Sure. But at least Lambert has some idea of an attacking game plan. At least he doesn't give up when facing bigger clubs, meaning under him Villa have recorded unexpected, and fantastic wins, against the likes of Arsenal, Manchester City, Liverpool and others. At least Villa are competing.

There is simply no contest between the reigns of the two, and until you let go of your statistics and actually do some research into the issue, you'll fail to see this point. The 'Lambert is no better than McLeish' argument is pure Sky Sports barstoolery.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Hehe, so was it a case of remarkably good defending or remarkably bad refereeing? In other words, were there clear instances where visiting teams were probably deserving of penalties but had their appeals waved away by (cowardly or agenda-driven?) referees?

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There was one I remember not so long ago against Fulham at Old Trafford, near the end of the game, some Fulham guy was blatantly tripped in the box, the ref waved play on.
MU won 1-0.
In general, as regards the penalty stats (conceded and won) they're much of a muchness.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Statistics are not the full story.

Statistics do not show how thoroughly lily-livered McLeish was as Villa manager. How he regularly set his teams up, against even middling opposition, with no plan or conception of winning the game. How he had zero attacking plan throughout his reign. How he often shrugged his shoulders post-game and pretty much said 'ah well, we're just a small club, my hands are tied' when he was well supported financially, had a much stronger squad than Lambert and yet was completely cowardly in his usage of it.

Just go back and watch Villa under McLeish and then watch them under Lambert. Still limited? Sure. But at least Lambert has some idea of an attacking game plan. At least he doesn't give up when facing bigger clubs, meaning under him Villa have recorded unexpected, and fantastic wins, against the likes of Arsenal, Manchester City, Liverpool and others. At least Villa are competing.

There is simply no contest between the reigns of the two, and until you let go of your statistics and actually do some research into the issue, you'll fail to see this point.

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At least Alex McLeish has a concept of how to perform the basic concept of fundamental defending. The ineptitude and erratic nature of the way Villa are set out to attack doesn't cover their well-known defensive failings.

I did do research. People call Alex a crap manager yet he had a better goal difference and his Villa team finished just 3 points worse off than Lambert's yet the latter isn't a crap manager; despite Villa being entrenched in another relegation battle, in what is a weak bottom half of the table.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

At least Alex McLeish has a concept of how to perform the basic concept of fundamental defending. The ineptitude and erratic nature of the way Villa are set out to attack doesn't cover their well-known defensive failings.

I did do research. People call Alex a crap manager yet he had a better goal difference and his Villa team finished just 3 points worse off than Lambert's yet the latter isn't a crap manager; despite Villa being entrenched in another relegation battle, in what is a weak bottom half of the table.

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But they had no concept of basic defending. Defending under McLeish was completely awful. Comparing two rank-bad defences is not going to help your argument, particularly when McLeish had two experienced centre halves (Dunne and Collins) unlike Lambert who has had to rely on Vlaar (new to the PL) with either Clark or Baker. Dunne has also never looked worse than when he played in that season under McLeish. He was terrible for Villa, unrecognisable from the player who went to Moscow at the same time and performed heroics.

With Villa, McLeish was a give-up artist who enervated a decent bunch of players with unrelenting negativity. If you can't see how this differs from Lambert's approach which, is actually far more positive than McLeish's, then I think it's best to just move on.

Is there a statistic that can illustrate your point? If not it's not really much of an opinion.

McLeish has a much better record north of the border than south where he rarely rose above mediocre. He did very well with Scotland, in hindsight probably should have stayed there but I guess it didn't pay very much.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

The same Neil Lennon that has been linked with the managerial job at Norwich?

Top 10 PL finish. League Cup. Automatic promotion to the PL. Numerous trophies with a downsizing Rangers. Good European run. 2nd place SPL finish with Motherwell. Cup final run with Hibs.

It's not that bad to have on the CV.

IDK why I'm defending him. He isn't even Irish! I guess he signs/plays a lot of Irish players i.e. Fahey, O'Shea and Stevens so that's something. :p

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Lennon would be wise to stay in celtic, cant even win the treble, he would be found out quick enough down south. What you can do in the SPL means SFA.
Where is this great manager Mcleish nowadays?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

There was a remarkable statistic - I'll try and find it for you - where Manchester United didn't concede a single penalty at Old Trafford for something like 14 years until Arsenal won one around the turn of the century.

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Is this the one?

Three penalties conceded at Old Trafford between 1993 and 2004.

Course, that doesn't necessarily say anything about referees. It could just be that they only conceded three penalties in that time.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is this the one?

Three penalties conceded at Old Trafford between 1993 and 2004.

Course, that doesn't necessarily say anything about referees. It could just be that they only conceded three penalties in that time.

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Could be it, I read it in a book recently but there's no index annoyingly. I'll have a look tomorrow hopefully.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/n...-at-stoke-city

Stoke want to sign Ireland on permanent deal.

He's already on a permanent deal. They want to extend it.

Maybe that'll be the club security he needs to make a decision on his international appetite. He should make himself available for May / June now or else eff off.

Last chance saloon.

He hasn't signed the deal yet,
"does Mark Hughes really appreciate me?"
"do they really value me enough?"
I expect the state of emotional and contractual insecurity to drag on through the summer.
It's quite draining actually, how can we expect him to be of sound body and mind to put himself on the line for his country?

Had a stonking game for Stoke yesterday, albeit just v. West Ham.
Games like that, just underline the frustration of his being in the. international wilderness.

Of his own making...

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Originally Posted by geysir

He hasn't signed the deal yet,
"does Mark Hughes really appreciate me?"
"do they really value me enough?"
I expect the state of emotional and contractual insecurity to drag on through the summer.
It's quite draining actually, how can we expect him to be of sound body and mind to put himself on the line for his country?

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One can't. History has proved that he is in fact, a nutball.

I think Stephen Ireland can be a valuable member of the team. He is too talented to ignore. However, he really needs to make a firm decision after he signs a long-term contract at Stoke. No more faffing about.

Nutball? Since when are modesty, intelligence and humility traits associated with footballers?

Stephen Ireland should watch this and if he doesn't feel proud to be Irish and eligible to represent his country he should never be mentioned again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXt6GtMxOI8

I don't even think he should be discussed at all.

Stephen has signed a three year deal at Stoke.

No more excuses now.