He was brilliant in that 1st half
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He was brilliant in that 1st half
My take is that 8 goals and 2 assists in 14 appearances (subbed on in 9 of them) proves that he is above SPFL standard. A goal every 65' is impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
He's done very well in Glasgow overall. Seems to have turned most of the support in his favour, and the rest of them I think just hate the fact that a third choice striker at Norwich now represents a significant upgrade for Celtic.
Normally I wouldn't favour an Irish player in England signing for Celtic. But in this case they'll have to pay in the region of £5m to get him. That's a significant sum by Celtic's standards and means that there's next to no chance of him being sidelined as they'll want (or need) a financial return on that investment in time. So I'd be happy enough in this case if they signed him permanently.
It's relative to the standard of opposition. For the first time in his career Idah is scoring regularly. He's found his level. He struggled last week against the only SPFL opposition remotely close to Championship standard but was good against L2 level Kilmarnock last night. Warner can waffle all he wants to increase a transfer fee - but farming him out to Celtic was a damning declaration he saw no value in having Idah at Norwich for a promotion push.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
So you think one on hand he should have stayed at Norwich but on the other hand that his manager saw no value in him. How does that benefit anyone? That doesn’t sound like a smart proposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
The loan to Celtic was great for him, has worked out better than anyone would have expected and I’d argue that his stats are showing he’s probably better than SPFL. He is scoring, he looks sharp, he’s contributing, he’s won a sceptical and demanding fan base over (mostly) and his mental health, I’d say, is miles away from where it was 4-5 months ago. All great things. This change of scenery was the right move at the right time. If he gets the next play in his career right, it’ll be the making of him.
I said he should have stayed at Norwich and proved Wagner wrong. He is scoring, looking sharp and contributing because the opposition is substantially inferior. Celtic fans are as fickle as fashion - one bad miss (like against Rangers) and he'll be rubbished.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Yes, all is "great" but not if quality is factored in. The elephant in the room.
If he gets the next play in his career right? That old line. Idah, Connolly, Parrot, O'Connor, Molumby. Kenny's Golden Generation.
He also scored against that same opposition weeks earlier ten minutes after coming on though. Key goal at a vital time too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
He has done well there. He's in a better situation than he was arriving there, career wise, reputation and hopefully options wise too & you'd imagine confidence wise. Fair play to him for that.
I don't see much reason to be negative about his time in Scotland. I didn't like the move, but he's done pretty well with it. It's not like anyone is calling for him to start ahead of Ferguson or Szmodics. The praise is measured and appropriate.
Idah has never shown consistent goalscoring in his career until now. His record for Norwich was 17 in 115, many of those cup goals. The level in Scotland is lower, of course, but that guaranteed nothing. Look at Mikey Johnston, for example, who seems well able for Championship football but underwhelmed at Celtic. There's a lot to be said for knuckling down and making the grade where you are, but Idah tried that for years at Norwich and needed a change. I'd like to see him take that form back to the Championship now - at Norwich or elsewhere - but I'll take the positives.
Snapshot compared him with Connolly; I'd love to see Connolly have a spell like this, where he looks the part somewhere for longer than a month.
Are you angry at those players because their individual & collective career trajectories didn't match expectations ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
I'm sure they'd all like things to have gone better as much as the supporters would.
Or are you somehow angry at Kenny for it ? :D
I'm sure he'd like them to have amounted to more, quicker too.
Or are you just experiencing generalised directionless anger to an extent nobody is supposed to mention Idah who realised he wasn't getting in at Norwich ( & possibly because he's not good enough at this stage to do so & may never be, who knows ) and did something about it, took a pressure loan and did quite well ?
That's more or less a sanitised makeover of what I said but charmingly recalibrated for sensitive souls. Idah has done well but the alternative was unthinkable. That the standard is low may not guarantee success but it certainly helps (though not in Shane Duffy's case). David McGoldrick dropped to SPFA levels (English L1 and L2) following just 11 goals over two Championship seasons. He then scored 40-ish over the two terms. Much-maligned "non-player" Will Keane knocked in 30-plus in one L1 season.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
I hope Idah takes the positives and invests them wisely but I remain sk-eptical, if that's allowed.
It isn't though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
Try not to have one of your turns now, entertaining as they are.
I generally welcome scepticism, though it certainly needs a spoonful of sugar with some folks, and it can slide into negativity too. Let me recalibrate my sentiments for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
Idah is one of a batch of players who I watched Kenny promote before they were ready (albeit in some cases there was little alternative), which was part of the reason Kenny's teams underperformed. Whether the marginal gains in experience and exposure across that cohort will be worth in the long run - I think it bought Bazunu for example some opportunities, but most of the others would have developed much the same regardless - the cost in terms of results and rankings I remain unconvinced. Idah is one I liked and hoped would come good. He's had a hard time with injuries, but he's also not quite made it at Norwich after years of trying. He's still far too young to write off, but I was a little concerned he might sink in Scotland and more or less end my hopes he'll make it as a big player for us. Right now, I think his Scottish adventure is weak evidence he'll come good, as are the 6 goals he scored in the Championship this year. I'm not very concerned because we have better players in his position, and he seems capable enough as a squad player for Ireland. I think that if the national team weren't an utter shambles - which is as more about feckless FAI youth development leaving the cupboard bare in the age ranges who should be at their career peaks now than it is about anything Kenny or any other manager did - Idah should just this season be at the point in his career to be winning his first caps. Much of this is subjective opinion, and many many disagree.
Scepticism is fine but dismissing what he has done is petty. I thought at the time of the move that this was a big move for him, a real chance to show what he's capable of. Yes it's a lower standard but he still had to deliver and if he didn't it'd have been calamatous for his career. The oppposite has happened though, he made an impact quickly with key goals at key times in what had become a very competitive title race. His goals at Motherwell were crucial, his goal at Ibrox was crucial. His penalties at Hibernian were crucial.
Room to improve? Yes, plenty. But he has passed the test that this sceptic had set for him. I hoped he'd do well but honestly only had moderate expectations.
Other sceptics were bigging up Oh's record. Idah has already surpassed Oh's record up there.
Something else about Idah has surprised me though: the type of player he is turning into. He really now is a big solid athletic unit, a real focal point number 9 and - this is important - he impacts games. I still think his touch and his awareness can improve but he has brought something to the team that they didn't have before and I do think without him they may be a few points short of where they are now.
On the impact piece, there have been Ireland games where he has gone missing. There have been other where he has started well and sought to bully defenders into submission at every opportunity. On the latter, he wasn't filled out but he was game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
He looks a little less filled out but even more game now. Allied with the uptick in confidence and there's more consistency in his hunger to bully and succeed in bullying.
His movement is also changing. Might be the Rodgers impact. He seems to be starting centrally as normal but more keen to pull wide and short and find dangerous spaces in between defenders and midfielders. Painful stuff to deal with.
The touch, awareness and also the finishing all need improvement and consistency. But there are green shoots on all three.
I feel like he needed a step down to find his confidence and groove - see what he is good at and maximize it, see what he is not good at and get away with it but identify it for the future; this move has delivered just that. A lot of 9s start at lower levels and work upwards (Ollie Watkins a good example but I've mentioned Giroud and Drogba before here too). Celtic is a much more glamorous move than League One.
I liked last night how he'd drop deep and with his back to goal he'd play a nice "around the corner" pass just inside the full back. When both Forrest and Maeda were alert to it they posed real danger. Oneof these flicks looked a bit heavy (the pass that led to Maeda squaring for Forrest's goal) but Maeda is so fast and physical it put him in a great position. Relevance for Ireland is that with players like Johnston and Ogbene in the team it could open things up for us.
He did try this once or twice too often though, once when he really should have turned into open space (Sutton commented on it on TV) and overall better international teams would plan and adapt for this - though of course that could free up alternatives.
If so, he deserves credit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
He has done as well as could be hoped, and the goals can only be a confidence boost.
Whether we know any more about him as a player than we did before the move reamins a question though.
At Stutts said, failure there would have been a calamity. The SPL is that kind of league - if you fail there after stepping down a level, it means you really are not good enough, but even if you succeed, the earlier doubts about you probably remain.
Unless you are Mikey Johnston who go better at the supposedly better level?Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Unlike the championship teams will stick 10 or 11 players behind the ball when playing Celtic in the SPL. Players like Johnston look better at the higher level he's currently playing in because he's gonna get more space with the ball as teams aren't overly defensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Other skillful, tricky wingers have been fantastic for Celtic in the past so I dont think thats it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
The opposition that Celtic play against may be weaker but the pressure of playing for such a big club and the demands that brings is not for everyone.
I think he's done really well to be honest, while a lot of the opposition isn't great in Scotland, there's a lot of pressure on your back playing for one of the big two there, especially for a striker and especially in a tight title race like this year's one.
I didn't like the look of this move when it came up in January. I thought there was an awful lot that could go wrong. He was going into a situation where the support was underwhelmed by the signing and had wanted a bigger name. The team hadn't been playing that well. Everyone puts 10 men behind the ball against Celtic other than Rangers so space in attack is hard to come by. Strikers get kicked up and down the park if they don't stand up for themselves and Idah has been injury prone. Celtic have a bloated squad and a lot of players just get lost there and don't play. The fans were ready to get on his back from day one if he wasn't scoring goals. And he was coming in mid season as a loan signing that could be easily cut adrift if it wasn't going well. Like I said, there was an awful lot that could go wrong. And if it did the "couldn't even do it in Scotland" tag was there to be thrown at him. (Incidentally it's worth reading The Secret Footballer/Dave Kitson's take on why he didn't go to Scotland late in his career - it's not as easy as people think.)
So to come out of that four months later in a position where he is part of a Championship winning team, played an integral part in the title win, scored crucial goals and brought about a situation where all but the most deluded Celtic fans want to sign him permanently is to his enormous credit I think. I'm a lot more positive about Idah's long term prospects now than I was four months ago.
Idah is not an out and out goal scorer - his role lies in his ability to receive and layoff the ball and his pace. He is reminiscent of Frank Stapleton - while not (at least at this stage) approaching close to Stapleton's ability. Idah's development has been curtailed by injury and by the limitations of Norwich. He is still quite young - 23 - and has time to develop. I think he will continue to be underestimated by supporters - and does have a role in the Irish squad.
Mikey Johnston went from playing teams who play 10/11 men behind the ball in the usually vain hope of picking up a draw against Celtic (or Rangers) to playing against teams who (in general) attack as much as they defend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Not entirely surprising that he would thrive in that increased space.
Anyhow, it doesn't relate to my point - which was that the SP is a league where doing well comes with asterisks. In the case of Johnston goimg to WBA, there was an element of 'So he can do it against Championship opposition.'.
Why do you call me angry, CTP? Three times in a small post. Different opinion maybe, but no anger I assure you.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Celtic twitter really positive about Idah. There's an account I follow, Celtic Gossip, and the replies to his question "should we sign Idah permanently?" were full of "I doubted him but he really delivered" (most common reply) / "better than Oh" / "different to Kyogo" / "wouldn't have won the league without him" positive comments.
Back on the bench today unfortunately, and fairly peripheral when he came on for the last half hour at 2-2 (Celtic did win in the end)
So what next? I guess there's three options and I'm not sure it's straightforward which one to go for -
1) Stay at Celtic (if they'll sign him). Clearly the move has been a good one but as Ole Ole said earlier, you wouldn't want him stuck to the bench as much. I think he's gotten a bit of confidence back from scoring some goals (against tired lower SPL defences mostly) but really good imagine he'd benefit more from a regular starting spot (no different to any player). And obviously European football would be something new.
2) Go back to Norwich. There's a new manager coming in (could be good or bad), and with them missing out on promotion, one or more of Sara, Barnes, Rowe and Sargent may move on. But they may sign new players too (though I did see somewhere they'd already borrowed against their third season parachute payment in an effort to get promoted, so their transfer activity could be interesting if that's true).
3) Move elsewhere. Not sure where that would be - would he have many Championship suitors? He's never really lit up the league. If we take it SPL is mostly League 1, does he drop there and hope for a similar scoring run as at Celtic? But in a way that feels like a more clear drop down than moving to the SPL.
I guess first indication will be if Celtic make an offer, which would probably be in the next couple of weeks?
On point 3), I think he's too young and expensive for League One.
If he's done that well in the SPL, I wonder will Continental options present themselves. Portugal. Netherlands. Germany. As an example, Feyenoord might cash in on Gimenez. Not saying he's a direct replacement but signing Idah for £5m as one of your replacements could make sense for a club like that.
Verona were in for him in January.
I would rather he explored those options than back to Celtic behind Kyogo. But read any Idah interview the last few days and he's been absolutely buzzing about Celtic and the manager there.
Fair point actually - 3a might be a League One loan/move while 3b could be a European move. Bit like Troy Parrott going to a league where there's a relatively wide range so he could play up more than he plays down (as at Celtic)
Idah to L1 might be the stupidest thing I'll read on the the internet this month ;)
Jesus talk about telling me you haven't actually watch his games without telling me you haven't watched his games.
Most likely he'll sign permanently for Celtic. Unless either the new Norwich manager is particularly keen on him, or Celtic get outbid by someone else, maybe a mid rank Serie A team or similar European side. But I expect he'll be a Celtic player next season. The closest he'll get to League 1 is possibly Ligue 1.
Not even close. Some rocket scientist over on YBIG bagged that with a Fans Revolution call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Amazing that some fans actually give a fcuk about trying to make changes for the better instead of constantly just being a whinging b1tch on the internetQuote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
I’d Idah has absolutely no doubt where he’d like to be next season. Do you really think it’s hard to choose between Celtic and Rochdale? SPL might be mostly League One but nothing in League One is remotely like Celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Rochdale who'll be in the Conference next season? Not really a great comparison I think. But on the bench at Celtic or starting for Birmingham? Well now there's a discussion to be had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You're probably right that he knows where he'd like to be of course.
Not really. Like it or not, nothing in his career to date indicates he'd be a particularly sought-after Championship signing, especially with this talk of a £5m price tag. Would Norwich loan him to a club in the same division? Not sure. He's just gone on loan to a lower level, and it's done him a bit of good (as I suggested it might at the start of the season, while you said he should stick around at Norwich - tell me you haven't watched his games without telling me you haven't watched his games, eh? :p). So why isn't it an option four months later?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
If Celtic don't sign Idah it will because they'll have been priced out of move for him, and that'll only happen if clubs from Europe get involved, which they probably will. He's already being linked with Serie A, but I think Celtic will do everything they can to get him
ah Rochdale or whoever. I couldn’t be added checking who’s actually in L1 using my mobile.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Point is that there’s no club in L1 that would be better for him than staying at Celtic. Birmingham or anyone.
He really is in the perfect place right now. Huge but demanding crowd. Standard just the right level for him to be effective, but not easy enough for him to be complacent. European football guaranteed. Worldwide fan base and so on.
Or there’s one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the West Midlands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
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Originally Posted by Snapshot
https://rockpitbrewing.com/wp-conten...ed-quickly.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Is he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Fair enough - I don't fully agree. 15 minutes a week is far from ideal. Regular starts at a similar-ish level would surely be better. Celtic's worldwide fan base isn't really relevant. (Obviously I'm making up the Birmingham link; that's just for illustrative purposes. I've no idea who else might be interested).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
If he stays at Celtic you'd want to see him get his game at least. If next season is one of mostly cameo appearances off the bench, then I don't think that'd have been the best use of a season.
Some context Stu.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I suggested on YBIG that maybe a fan protest/boycott should be organized for the Hungary game in response the FAIs handing of the last year. It seems some like Snapper there would rather continuing to lube up and take what they are given from our FAI overlords
The only problem I see in any of that is the YBIG part of it. Some absolute cretins hanging out there from my past exposures to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg