19th of July for the CAS case. Link
Irish Football Association v/ Football Association of Ireland, Daniel Kearns and FIFA
They should change that to, 'Irish Football Association v The World'
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19th of July for the CAS case. Link
Irish Football Association v/ Football Association of Ireland, Daniel Kearns and FIFA
They should change that to, 'Irish Football Association v The World'
Bring it on.
Makes a change from them Derry wans imagining the world is against them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
It was meant to be a week earlier, but our lot couldn't make it. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Clearly putting it off out of fear. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
How do the IFA rate their chances? I just can't see how they'll argue their case at all, unless they hold misconceptions on the concept of single and dual/multiple nationality.
There was some poster on OWC (I know, I know; very naughty of me... I shouldn't be in there) harping on about CAS adjudging the "fairness" of a rule. This belief, or blind certainty even, was seemingly based on the text of Wikipedia's article on arbitration; a general overview of what one might expect various or typical arbitration processes to resemble. Which is all very humourous and mind-blowing that one would feel the need to spin something like that in order to save face and uphold their strict "no surrender to Beggars" policy, but, just to be sure, is this within CAS's remit? I can't imagine it is. There's no reason to believe that it is seeing as there is no mention of such an element coming into play on their website, which outlines how they operate. I find it hard to envisage that all arbitration processes would be identical and contain the same elements as the next anyway. Surely, all CAS can work with is the rule in question and how it ought to be interpreted. The notion of fairness is so subjective and wishy-washy anyway that you could use it to bolster the argument of both sides. I mean, wouldn't it be highly unfair to deny any Irish national the right to play for his country?
I'm glad a date has been set though. At last, we should see an end to this ill-informed and confused moaning, and maybe all Irish nationals, able and lucky enough, can get on with playing for their country in peace. And we can all live happily ever after... Or is that one step too far?:rolleyes:
First step to an all ireland team on 19th July?
The thread dedicated to the CAS Case on OWC has been closed for some reason. Perhaps it was closed on the expressed orders of the IFA, in order to limit the amount of 'public exposure' the case gets, so as to minimize the seemingly inevitable ridicule they will receive if (when?) they fail?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
But don't you know that the FAI are on a crusade to 'nick' players as part of their shady scheme to sectarianise football on the island? Sure as one guy put it, the FAI are actually going against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement when they choose Irish players from the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Oh yeah, the thread on Shane Duffy being "lifted" closed due to discussion on the nature of Duffy's switch? Must have gotten a bit too on-topic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Can't imagine the IFA interfering with or demanding censorship of a private fan forum though - surely not - or is there some official connection there?
Ah yes, although sometimes I forget what we are. Is it beggars or poachers now?Quote:
But don't you know that the FAI are on a crusade to 'nick' players as part of their shady scheme to sectarianise football on the island? Sure as one guy put it, the FAI are actually going against the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement when they choose Irish players from the north.
It's a tad bit rich given that the whole idea behind the peace agreement was to allow both communities to exercise and express their own identities freely without having to suffer because of them or without one being compelled against their will into identifying with a nationality foreign to them.
'Appeals procedure' is the course of action for the IFA to follow in CAS. It is not ordinary arbitration.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
From the CAS site
'WHAT LAW DO THE ARBITRATORS APPLY ?
In the context of ordinary arbitration, the parties are free to agree on the law applicable to the merits of the dispute. Failing such agreement, Swiss law applies.
In the context of the appeals procedure, the arbitrators rule on the basis of the regulations of the body concerned by the appeal and, subsidiarily, the law of the country in which the body is domiciled. The procedure itself is governed by the Code of Sports-related Arbitration.'
Definition of appeals procedure 'For disputes resulting from decisions taken by the internal bodies of sports organisations, the appeals arbitration procedure is applicable.'
Therefore Swiss Law applies as that is where FIFA is domiciled. What is fair or unfair does not enter the equation - (no Liberal Democrats in CAS).
AFAIU Swiss law determines that there should be no ambiguity in a rule. If there is ambiguity, then CAS will rule in favour of the appellant.
Basically it an open and shut case. But in the unlikely event that CAS find some ambiguity in the rule, all FIFA would have to do is reword the rule in order to remove the ambiguity.
I was of course just joking, but who knows? There could very well be a connection, official or unofficial and I can't think of any reason why the thread was closed, because discussion was certainly relatively civil and on topic, but I suppose that is a decision for the admin.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Ha, good point! It seems we're sinister poachers masquerading as innocent beggars in order to fulfil the ultimate plan of sectarianising football in Ireland.Quote:
Ah yes, although sometimes I forget what we are. Is it beggars or poachers now?
It's all very ridiculous.
There is an article in today's Sunday Times by Paul Rowan concerning Shane Duffy and the situation of northern borns moving south. According to Rowan, Duffy's clearance is actually being held up by the CAS case, meaning that Duffy won't get clearance until after the case. Seems strange, considering Duffy's situation is separate and distinct from the cases that the IFA are disputing. Perhaps it's a case of sour grapes on the IFA's part?
Interestingly, he notes that one of the main reasons Duffy ended up with NI up to U21 level was the 'struggle that Worthington put up to keep Duffy'. He explains that, in addition to fast-tracking Duffy, Worthington even asked David Moyes to attempt to persuade Duffy to stick with N.I., only for Moyes to advise Duffy to 'go with [his] heart'. Duffy claims that he was disappointed by Worthington's decision to name him in the squad despite being told well in advance that his heart lay elsewhere, but at the same time he is also keen to acknowledge the support he received from his coaches.
In the article, Rowan also brings up, what seems to me to be a moot point, that is, that playing for NI means that players 'don't have to travel to Dublin all the time'. Surely for players based in and travelling from England, a trip to Dublin isn't that much different to a trip to Belfast? He also writes that these players 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in Northern Ireland'. Tough. That's how it works. You take a gamble when selecting any player.
Duffy on wanting to play for Ireland:"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country"No doubt, this kind of thing will annoy NI fans, but it's the cold hard truth, straight from the horse's mouth. It doesn't sound like Duffy had to be 'coaxed into' playing for Ireland, despite some of the ridiculous assertions from NI fans. I'm sure Duffy isn't alone in his sentiments either. Indeed he continues to comment on the amount of others considering changing:"There are definitely a lot. I can't name them because that wouldn't be right, but it is what they want to do. A lot will want to change and a lot won't, but I have made my decision and that is it for me."Oh, I forgot, this is supposedly 'playing to the gallery'. :rolleyes:
That's very enlightening; so these "defectors" do actually have opinions of their own then? Well, by Jove...
I haven't seen the interview, but I just can't fathom this at all. Can anyone shed any light on it? Does Duffy suggest he's aware that this is the reason for the delay in the interview? What makes Rowan so certain? Not that I think there's a chance of it, but, say hypothetically, if the IFA were to win their appeal, what difference would that make to Duffy's circumstances? His father is still from Donegal and they'd just have to clear him anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
That can't be right. Sure, is he not an ungrateful, manipulative zombie?... However that works exactly.Quote:
Duffy claims that he was disappointed by Worthington's decision to name him in the squad despite being told well in advance that his heart lay elsewhere, but at the same time he is also keen to acknowledge the support he received from his coaches.
Worthington naming him in his squad so as to make it appear Duffy was then pulling out or to publicise that the lad was rejecting a call-up was a disgraceful way to create a scapegoat amongst NI fans and brew up a media storm around the reasons in order to help garner exposure for the IFA’s CAS appeal. The IFA used Duffy for their own ends just as Duffy might well have found advantage playing in their youth system from whatever age when it seemed the natural "thing to do" given where he lived and it simply being what he always knew. It probably was like a default option, if you will, until he matured and realised that he could actively do something about his dream to play for Ireland - his country - if only it weren't for the huge psychological pressure being placed upon him by Worthington et al. Everything's voluntary in international football. NI fans seem to believe the IFA are all give and no take. It's a blinkered view and, indeed, betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world in general actually operates.
Sure, they could give up football altogether and not have to bother travelling anywhere at all... What an odd point for Rowan to make. What was the context? Was he suggesting Duffy should play for NI out of personal convenience or something?Quote:
In the article, Rowan also brings up, what seems to me to be a moot point, that is, that playing for NI means that players 'don't have to travel to Dublin all the time'.
Indeed. There are no obligations in international football. The association is free to call up a player or not call up a player, just as any player is free to accept a call-up or reject a call-up. The dynamics of these interactions certainly do not create any future obligations.Quote:
He also writes that these players 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in Northern Ireland'. Tough. That's how it works. You take a gamble when selecting any player.
Let’s ignore the specific rules in question here for a second and look at international football on a purely personal level for the players involved. They are people, after all, would you believe? Take Stephen Ireland, for example. He availed of our "extensive and expensive" youth system but has seen fit to take the decision not to represent us for whatever reason. He lied to the FAI and the Irish public - twice - as to why he was departing our squad under Staunton and that has embittered many. Some would be happy to welcome him back and others are naturally disappointed that a player with such ability decides not to provide us with the joy of watching him play. The door has still been left open by Trapattoni for any potential return should Ireland change his mind, but it's been left entirely up to the player when and if he sees fit. The FAI aren't demanding he play for us, nor will he be forced to play for us. Likewise, there are no calls suggesting he owes us some form of compensation or obligation because he played for our youth teams. Neither will they be dragging him over to CAS.
The difference between Stephen Ireland and Shane Duffy, of course, is that Stephen Ireland departed the Irish set-up in bad faith at an age that should have shown at least some level of maturity, whereas Shane Duffy, at the age of 17, remained, against his long-expressed will a part of the Northern Ireland set-up in good faith, seemingly as a favour to Worthington. And Northern Ireland fans then have the cheek to demand he owes them something and sully his name like dirt? It’s disgusting, especially after captaining their youth teams and giving his all for them on the field. If anything, I think Duffy has handled himself impeccably in all of this and has shown impressive maturity for someone so young. Furthermore, he’s not settling for second-best and is sacrificing a career of guaranteed international football with Northern Ireland by going down the more risky route in the hope that it will pay off in the long-term. That demonstrates tremendous ambition. A potential captain some day down the line, maybe.
Northern Ireland fans would have you think that Duffy came under excruciating pressure from Liam Brady & Co. Poachers to make the switch - almost as if he was conned or forced - but the reality is that finally declaring for Ireland was a relief for the lad. He now has the weight of that pressure Worthington was placing upon him off his shoulders. There was no coercion involved. What an insult to the lad. The IFA is where the pressure was coming from - respect to him for withstanding it - and it was coming from that side because Duffy had long made it known he didn't want to represent Northern Ireland at heart. As David Moyes advised Duffy, he went with his heart in the end. Although maybe Brady had already swindled Moyes too; you just wouldn't know... :rolleyes:
Of course it doesn't. Probably because he wasn't coaxed at all.Quote:
It doesn't sound like Duffy had to be 'coaxed into' playing for Ireland, despite some of the ridiculous assertions from NI fans.
Good for them, but I won’t rest 'til we've poached them all and brought the IFA to their knees! :rolleyes:Quote:
Indeed he continues to comment on the amount of others considering changing: "There are definitely a lot. I can't name them because that wouldn't be right, but it is what they want to do. A lot will want to change and a lot won't, but I have made my decision and that is it for me."
It's probably because the IFA are embarassed by the paranoia of much of their fanbase and their hypocrisy in challenging this whilst trawling around for the likes of Norwood, Dudgeon & co.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
As for the second point, the Seed Sowers can't really complain given they insisted on enforcing their will on what was (& is) the native population against their will, for how many hundred years....
They could at least make an effort to integrate!
"No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country"
The Duffy quote above just follows on from those of Gibson & Wilson.
Marc Wilson “It’s the best honour you can get to represent your country – it’s always been a dream of mine to play for Ireland”
Darron Gibson “It was unbelievable you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me”
I wonder if the IFA are complaining about players like Norwood etc... who 'avail of the extensive and expensive youth system in England' before deciding to join Worthington's team?
Any idea of who he could be referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I wouldn't be surprised if half his former team-mates would rather be playing for us. I don't feel it would be appropriate to single out any individuals though. They'd be castigated as the "enemies within". Whether these players make the leap is another matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
To be fair, the reality probably is that they are biding their time in the NI set-up because it offers them certainty at this stage of their careers. Seems rather mercenary, and not something of which I'd wholly approve - if they consider themselves Irish and, indeed, are, I think they should be making the necessary queries and movements in order to get out of the system of which they now find themselves a part, possibly more through circumstance or convention than any positive choice in many cases, and try fight for a place in the Irish set-up - but then, I suppose, you could argue that they are perfectly entitled under law to identify as Irish, British or both if they so wish.
just as a matter of interest, would I be able to declare myself british today and opt to play international football for northern Ireland. I have no blood links to Northern Ireland at all. I know that was the case with Darron Gibson but Im just wondering if the same applies in the opposite direction?
It doesn't apply in the opposite direction. If you were able to obtain British citizenship, you would have to satisfy the terms of Article 16 in order to qualify for NI.
Why would you want to do that?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I have no doubt that it was a purely hypothetical question.
well Ive always fancied playing international football but my problem is that I was always crap so I just figure at the rate they are losing players they might gladly take anyone:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Can't really blame those players switching as nationalists in the North feel more comfortable supporting Ireland going to home games in Dublin
So why not become a citizen of Montserrat or Bhutan??
;)
Im just like Bergkamp.... hate flyingQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
This quote made me think. In the unlikely event that the IFA win their CAS case, there could potentially be dozens of people choosing to make the switch at once. I would imagine a lot of kids choose to play for NI at underage level, but have no intention of playing a game that will tie them to the north. I appreciate that its no harder to get from Britain to Dublin than Belfast, but playing for the North allows them a couple of nights staying at home with their families and their mothers cooking, which can't be underated for a 16 year old living in England with limited opportunites to get home.Quote:
"There are definitely a lot. I can't name them because that wouldn't be right, but it is what they want to do. A lot will want to change and a lot won't, but I have made my decision and that is it for me."
Presumably if the CAS ruled in favour of the IFA there would be a final opportunity for people to make the switch. That could be devestating for the NI underage setup.
I don't see why players would necessarily be designated a final opportunity or cut-off point by which to switch if the practice was already ruled to be contrary to the rules. I'd imagine it would be halted immediately from the date of the ruling. Anyway, I don't think it's worth your while thinking about it. The IFA simply aren't going to win their case because they're bringing it to CAS on a misapprehension of the concept of nationality (generally used as a singular and also to be read as a singular in FIFA's rules), as distinct from dual or multiple nationalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but from the Herald's piece on Duffy, it sounds like the IFA have lodged a complaint to the CAS concerning the 'poaching' of Duffy as well as the dispute with Kearns. Surely that's a mistake?
Irish unearth a gem in Duffy
Duffy, however, was born in Derry, and is therefore technically (however sadly) a native of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So until a decision is reached by the Swiss-based body, the Court of Arbitration on Sport (CAS) on his eligibility after the IFA in Belfast complained about the Republic's 'poaching' of the player, he's unable to play in any official games at any level for the FAI.
We don't know when that case will be heard -- though CAS will hear the case involving another Northern-born defector to the south, West Ham's Belfast-born striker Daniel Kearns later this summer (July 19). It is hard to see CAS coming up with any decision which would stop Duffy from playing for the Republic as he qualifies through his Letterkenny-born dad no matter what.
What is the point in the CAS looking at the Duffy case? The FAI and IFA come off very badly with this whole charade. We don't need courts to come up with a working compromise. Perhaps something like this:
1) IFA recognises the right of players born in Northern Ireland to represent (the Republic of) Ireland in accordance with their birthright to Irish citizenship.
2) The FAI recognises the hardwork needed to develop young players and the frustration of the IFA and Northern Ireland fans when a player makes his way through the underage setup, only then to switch allegience. The FAI agrees not to pick any player who has already represented NI at U21 level or above.
I strongly suspect that the IFA are simply holding up proceedings at a bureacratic level, because whatever hopes they have with Kearns at the CAS, they can't possibly have any hope with Duffy. Let's remember, it was the IFA who took the case to the CASQuote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Simple, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
This 'hardwork' idea is a bit of a ruse to be honest. The FAI should not need to make such concessions unless the rest of the football world is forced to.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
I’m fairly sure that Shane Duffy is not mentioned in the IFA’s appeal to the CAS in July. Duffy is still waiting on his clearance papers from FIFA to validate his appearing for Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Shane Duffy : "I don't know the actual story but I'll find out on Friday. So far the international clearance hasn't come through, so hopefully I've impressed enough there to earn a call-up for next year," he said.
Shane McEleney from Derry is named in the u19 squad for the upcoming elite qualifiers, so there does not seem to an embargo on six county-born players continuing to represent Ireland while the IFA grand wizard and his gang go marching to Switzerland to complain to CAS.
Of course the FAI shouldn't be forced to make this concession, but I think as a voluntary act of good-will it will help in repairing FAI/IFA relations and could also put the whole matter to rest if the IFA is satisfied that there is no threat to it remaining a viable seperate football association.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Yeah, I sense that might be the case and I understand it does take a while. These news reports of it being held up pending the outcome of the CAS case have me confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
He seems so relieved that everything is finally in motion, ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
"I just wanted to get out there and play and I think I did OK," said Duffy. "It was a big thing for me to come down here and play for the Republic. It's something I always wanted to do and the lads in the squad and the staff were great with me, they really helped me settle in."But no, of course he's not being honest and this is just a PR stunt and NI fans will argue that he had to be persuaded against his will to opt to play for Ireland.
Isn't Kearns also included? It's interesting that he is allowed to continue, what with him being the scapegoat. Maybe it's FIFA's way of saying the rules won't be changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
I don't think it should even be a voluntary concession or 'act of good-will'. FIFA recently changed the rules, making them considerably more relaxed to facilitate one change of association regardless of previous international honours (except senior, of course) and these rules will be used to the favour of all associations, including the IFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Speaking of Daniel Kearns, I see he is down as a West Ham player on the FAI website.
http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...r-19&Itemid=12
Was he not released??
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/spo...to_leave_club/
"Duffy, however, was born in Derry, and is therefore technically (however sadly) a native of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I don't think whoever wrote that piece can bluntly put it in such simple terms as that. Technically, he's also a "native", or national at least - which is what is relevant here - of Ireland and has been ever since his birth.
If the IFA have lodged a complaint over Duffy specifically, just to hold up what is an inevitable outcome seeing as his father's from Donegal, that's a disgrace and smacks of throwing a spanner in the works out of pettiness. Surely, that isn't the case though. They'd know they'd have nothing to gain from it; only bad press and riling up Duffy and others like him, which wouldn't be such a good move given what Duffy had to say about half his former team-mates wanting to make the same switch he made.
I think it has to be just ignorant journalists trying to stir a bit of tension. As has been pointed out, there is no embargo on northern-born players playing for us even whilst the result of the CAS case is still pending. Things are proceeding as normal and will do because CAS are a serious body; the don't do surprises, magic or jokes. Kearns is still fine to play for us as he already has clearance. I think it's just a matter of FIFA clearing Duffy the same as they would any player who requests a switch of association. The process probably just takes a bit of time as he's already represented one association before this, plus they may well have a bit of a backlog of players to deal with given the number of players and associations utilising this rule to their advantage before the fast-approaching World Cup squad deadline of June the 1st. Maybe they're giving those applications precedence. Who knows? I certainly can't imagine the delay is down to some uncertainty or reluctance on FIFA's part; probably just down to normal bureaucratic procedures or whatever which will naturally take a bit of time.
Anyhow, he sounds like an exciting prospect from the report. All looking positive.
Totally missed Kearns inclusion in the squad :embarrassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
FIFA has already given permission for Kearns to switch. It is possible there is an enforced delay on any other applications since the IFA lodged their appeals case.
Who would be enforcing that? CAS upon FIFA, or FIFA upon the FAI even? I suppose you can't rule it out, but it just wouldn't make sense to me.
CAS would have nothing to do with that.
I am just saying that FIFA have to stand by their decision to allow Kearns to switch, anything else would be perceived to be a weakness. They will defend that decision in the CAS appeals sitting. So nothing special can be read into Kearns being included in the u19 squad.
But if there is some undue delay with other switch applications since the IFA appeal was lodged, I think it makes sense to interpret that it could well be FIFA just shoving them aside, as per their usual act of caution, when there is an official appeal lodged against them.
It's just odd seeing as Duffy's circumstances are different from Gibson's and surely FIFA are aware of this. Or, at least, the FAI should have made them aware that he qualifies to play for us via a path that isn't under dispute from the IFA. Then again, who knows what FIFA would be at?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Edit: And the FAI, for that matter. :rolleyes: