Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

How do you explain it being so relatively recent, though? How did this peculiarly Irish trait manifest itself before the '70s? Did it lie dormant within the crowd at Drums matches?

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For a possible answer to this, think back to how the country used to be before the Celtic Tiger roared.

A psyche is a way of seeing/doing things. Once the Irish game had declined in quality, standards, facilities etc, and the English one saturated the media, that part of the Irish psyche that secretly used to view things as non-Irish as being inherently better kicked-in. There was a sense in the 1970's and 1980's that the Irish weren't great at much. And we weren't - our economy was sh!t, our best people left in droves, our towns and cities were drab and depressing, our politicians were crooks, a third of our country was still not independent and was on the verge of civil war etc etc. Even our national football team was sh!t - part of the apopeal of Celtic in those days was the fact that it was effectively the equivalent of a national team for many people (i.e. an 'Irish' team playing around Europe). There is no doubt that there was an inherently negative attitude towards a lot of Irish things in the Irish psyche before the Celtic Tiger boosted everyone's national self confidence, and when Irish football regressed and English football became a staple of our televisual diet, it was inevitable that that psyche would lead to a switch in allegiance between the 2.

Secondly on this - let's not forget that swathes of the country had zero interest in football prior to 1988. I was doing student work at the Donegal Democrat during Euro 88, and I remember distinctly the paper writing with amazement that kids were then to be seen playing football in parts of the county where soccer had never been that big a game (incl Letterkenny, interestingly). A lot of Irish people only got into soccer when the ROI team started doing well. At that time English and Scottish football was big, glamorous and successful, and Irish football was a slum (no other way to explain how it was in the late 80's. Also - Ireland was extremely parochial back in those days - and as large parts of the country didn't have an LOI club near them, there was no way they would've supported one. So there wasn't even the sense of support-then-rejection for our league amongst a lot of people in the country that you may be suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

The Irish football league scene is a freak anomaly and it is no bigger than a hamlet -- for millions of reasons. Why do you understand Wales and San Marino's special circumstances (history and size, respectively) and yet demand that the Irish leagues be compared to Portugal or Holland

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I'm agreeing with you that it is a freak anomally. But unlike the other 2 freak anomalies mentioned here, it appears to be much more an issue of psyche. There is undoubtedly an issue in Wales about 'attitude' towards the domestic game. But they've only had a domestic game for 17 years, and their best teams have always played in another country, so they have 2 strong reasons that simply don't exist anywhere else in mature footbnalling jurisdictions. So there is no comparison between them and a country like Ireland that has always had a domestic league, and all of who's teams have always played within the island.

[QUOTE=Erstwhile Bóz;683568]
We all speak English, don't we? (Even ultra-Irishman and definer of nationality NY Hoop seems to.) [QUOTE]

Thanks for that bozo.

Please dont get involved or you will have reams of Mr Encyclopedia thrown at you.


KOH

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I see where you're coming from, but the linguistic comparison doesn't work....

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I said I was using it as an example of something which seems nonsensical but for which there are complex reasons. I am well aware that the Irish didn't get up and choose to speak English.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

...that part of the Irish psyche that secretly used to view things as non-Irish as being inherently better kicked-in. There was a sense in the 1970's and 1980's that the Irish weren't great at much. And we weren't - our economy was sh!t, our best people left in droves, our towns and cities were drab and depressing, our politicians were crooks, a third of our country was still not independent and was on the verge of civil war ...

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... why didn't gaelic football and hurling die? Why didn't attendances plummet? Did not the people also consider those games to be Irish and therefore 'inferior'? This self-hating psyche you're on about seems only to have manifested itself in soccer.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Secondly on this - let's not forget that swathes of the country had zero interest in football prior to 1988 ... there wasn't even the sense of support-then-rejection for our league amongst a lot of people in the country that you may be suggesting.

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Those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the big attendances in the urban areas and why that love wasn't transmitted down the generations.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I'm agreeing with you that it is a freak anomally. But unlike the other 2 freak anomalies mentioned here, it appears to be much more an issue of psyche. There is undoubtedly an issue in Wales about 'attitude' towards the domestic game. But they've only had a domestic game for 17 years, and their best teams have always played in another country, so they have 2 strong reasons that simply don't exist anywhere else in mature footbnalling jurisdictions. So there is no comparison between them and a country like Ireland that has always had a domestic league, and all of who's teams have always played within the island.

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That's true. But we have our own reasons for our leagues' failures, which is what I was saying. Some of which you have gone into above.

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

... why didn't gaelic football and hurling die? Why didn't attendances plummet? Did not the people also consider those games to be Irish and therefore 'inferior'? This self-hating psyche you're on about seems only to have manifested itself in soccer.

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Firstly - if you liked Gaelic football or hurling, what was your alternative other than to support an Irish team ? :confused: Londain/Londain or New York/Nua Eabhrac were hardly glamorous, successful alternatives. And apart from them, who else was there ??

Secondly - the GAA were extremely successful at drilling their games deep into communities right throughout the island. Gaelic games tapped into, and helped feed, Ireland's parochial nature. Apart from extremely isolated examples, Irish soccer had never come anywhere close to becoming so embedded in communities throughout the island, and so was much easier to turn away from over time when a better alternative appeared.

Finally - the GAA used its deep and widespread roots to make itself part of the establishment, and to portray Galeic games as some sort of 'national duty'. As something positive about Ireland that was constantly under attack from foreign influences, and that therefore needed constant protection. The GAA cleverly used their strength throughout the land to ensure they were part of the triumvirate that largely ran the country - along with the Church and the government/Fianna Fail. They successfully managed to demonise soccer and rugby amongst the populace and politicians as a means of promoting themselves. As a result, anyone in politics who dared to disagree with the GAA agenda found themselves facing electoral difficulties, and in that way they were able to influence/set the sporting agenda for the nation. It's a tactic that Thomas Davis are still trying to play, even in 2007 and even in non-traditional GAA territory like South West Dublin...

P.S. Let's not forget that the GAA did go through a period in the 1980'-1990's when attendances were in slow decline. The GAA is in stronger shape now than it arguable has been at any time in its history - but that is the result of clever marketing and investment on their part. Something the FAI seem incapable with.

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

Those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the big attendances in the urban areas and why that love wasn't transmitted down the generations.

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I take your point here. But would also raise the counter-point - where did much of the population of Ireland's urban areas come from ? As the saying used to go 'scratch a Dub and there's a culchie underneath'....

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Firstly - if you liked Gaelic football or hurling, what was your alternative other than to support an Irish team ? :confused: Londain/Londain or New York/Nua Eabhrac were hardly glamorous, successful alternatives. And apart from them, who else was there ??

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And if you liked going to football matches, what was your alternative in the '70s or '80s? Why didn't people just stay at home for the Sunday Game?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Finally - the GAA used its deep and widespread roots to make itself part of the establishment, and to portray Galeic games as some sort of 'national duty'. As something positive about Ireland that was constantly under attack from foreign influences, and that therefore needed constant protection. The GAA cleverly used their strength throughout the land to ensure they were part of the triumvirate that largely ran the country - along with the Church and the government/Fianna Fail. They successfully managed to demonise soccer and rugby amongst the populace and politicians as a means of promoting themselves.

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Almost true. Soccer's heyday in this country coincided with the Ban and the height of the fanatical opposition from the Establishment. Doesn't wash. The GAA is not to blame for those people's descendants turning their back on the native leagues.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

P.S. Let's not forget that the GAA did go through a period in the 1980'-1990's when attendances were in slow decline.

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It is a good thing they didn't just write it off as something got to do with the national psyche ;)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I take your point here. But would also raise the counter-point - where did much of the population of Ireland's urban areas come from ? As the saying used to go 'scratch a Dub and there's a culchie underneath'....

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I don't get you here. Are you talking about the current crop of Irish-football hating Dubs having culchie blood and the pure Dubs being LofI fans? Wouldn't tally with my own experience of football fans and GAA fans, to be honest (not saying it's the opposite, just that there is no connection).

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

'scratch a Dub and there's a culchie underneath'....

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I think you'll find its, "Scratch a Dub and you'd better have health insurance" :D

Give you some reasons why British football is so big here.
We consume basically the same media as the British do (BBC UTV Sky, the Sun, the Mirror etc.) which means that people subconsciously forget the fact that the Premiership is going on in a foreign country. On the other side the Brits don't even consider Irish players to be foreign!

All players and managers of a high standard in this country play and manage in Britain so people here naturally have an interest in how their fellow countrymen are getting on in a first class league with one of the highest standards in the world.

Most soccer supporters outside of Dublin, Dundalk, Derry and Belfast are probably the first generation in their family to have any interest in soccer so there is no tradition of going to football on a friday night for most people they might have more links (family etc.) with Celtic than they do with their local club.

People are often attracted to an event by the spectacle. If people heard that 20,000 were going to turn up to one of the games tonight you can guarantee that a big crowd would turn up simply being attracted by the prospect of a great atmosphere. Thats why the Dubs always fill Croke Park no matter what the game but can never fill Parnell park. Out league doesn't offer that so only the diehards turn up

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

Most soccer supporters outside of Dublin, Dundalk, Derry and Belfast are probably the first generation in their family to have any interest in soccer so there is no tradition of going to football on a friday night for most people they might have more links (family etc.) with Celtic than they do with their local club.

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Where did you get this idea from? Teams in, for example, Cork and Limerick have been around for a long time and have been historically well supported (Sadly, in Limerick's case, only historically, not currently).

I'm sure supporters of other teams will be able to give other examples.

And I wouldn't say that Friday night football has been any kind of tradition for any club in Ireland for a very long time.

Cork and Limerick are GAA and rugby cities and both their histories of having teams going under doesn't exactly illustrate great tradition of soccer.

Obviously Cork is now one of the best suppoted teams in the country but soccer probably isn't as culturally significant as it is elsewhere. Liam McCartney means much more.

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

Cork and Limerick are GAA and rugby cities and both their histories of having teams going under doesn't exactly illustrate great tradition of soccer.

Obviously Cork is now one of the best suppoted teams in the country but soccer probably isn't as culturally significant as it is elsewhere. Liam McCartney means much more.

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Cork sports fans would cheer for a cork-born snail in a leaf eating contest. City have been one of the best supported teams in the league since their inception and before them, Hibs, Celtic and United all drew crowds in four figures. Those teams going under has far more to do with financial mismanagement and inability to secure a land lease than lack of support.

when i lived in ireland i attended many EL matches and loved the atmosphere.

I firmly believe that more european progress is the only way for the EL to attract more supporters. There is a type of supporter out there who is waiting to be led to the EL. He needs his mates to coax him or maybe a big game against foreign opposition to get him coming along to the ground. I think once he gets in the gates he will start to take part.

I am not talking about the clowns who write off the league and know nothing about it but a genuine football fella who has no grounding in the league. Also He is the type of lad who's presence will not grate on those who are already there.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Simply untrue. Untrue firstly with regards the UK - pray tell what English teams do the Scots support.....? :confused:

Also untrue with regards continental Europe. Do the Belgians support French football ? Do the Dutch support German ? The Portuguese Spanish ? The Polish German or Russian ? The Swiss German ? I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

The only example you give to support your view here is San Marino. I mean really - San Marino ? :o A city-state entirely surrounded by Italy, populated by Italians, entirely dependent upon Italy, and with no senior footballing clubs of it's own. Shock horror - their population of 29,000 (less than Leitrim ! ) therefore tend to support Italian football. We'll who'd have thought it......




And likewise - as I said in a previous post, Wales is a unique example. Unique in that no other football nation in Europe, with a population larger than a small town, has so many of its senior clubs - and particularly its best ones - playing in another jurisdiction's league. Unique also in that, despite being one of the longest standign football jurisdictions in Europe, it has one of the youngest leagues of its own - youngee even than the leagues in some countries that only appeared in the 1990's. So Wales is indicative of nothing I'm afraid. For a better example, I'll refer you back to Scotland and the question of what teams in England do the Scots allegedly support.....?



Perhaps "some". But certainly not the overwhelming majority, and the rest of Europe supports this view.



I've clearly shown how Irish people give uniquely low levels of support to their own football clubs, versus the rest of Europe (freak anomallies and countries no bigger than hamlets aside..). There is no way that this can be evidence of aything other than it being a peculiarly Irish thing.

And I've already tackled the anomally of Wales. Anyways - what do you expect for the biggest county in England......?

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You made some reasonable points there until you called Wales a county of England. Bit like me calling the town from which you hail a borough of England. :p

But to address your points.

Firstly, I wouldn't be sure with regards to Belgium and Switzerland. The Swiss league is reasonably supported but I highly doubt that their fans don't pop over the border occasionally given that the Bundesliga is a better standard.

As for Scotland, while not exactly the same as the other UK & ROI countries, it is true that most Scottish clubs are badly supported-the vast majority simply support Celtic or Rangers, or don't bother at all, and watch the Premiership down the pub.

Bottom SPL clubs would probably have average attendances around the 4000 mark if not for the boost the Old Firm visits give them.

I don't know what English clubs these Scots living in the small towns support, eg those in Strathclyde, but I'd say it's a fair guess that a few support Liverpool because of the 80s Scottish connection, or Man United because of Alex Ferguson.

Either way, truly local football in Scotland is poorly supported, and is about to get even worse now that Gretna are about to join the SPL next year. I wouldn't be surprised to see a sub-1,000 crowd in the SPL next year.

Just for the record, San Marino do have senior clubs, they are participating in the Champions' League for the first time this year.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Simply untrue. Untrue firstly with regards the UK - pray tell what English teams do the Scots support.....? :confused:

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People travel the length and breadth of the uk from Scotland to support PL teams week in week out. Countless people travel to follow Liverpool and the Mancs in particular. Also plenty of people from the uk travel to Scotland to support Rangers and Celtic. I know one geordie who travels to every home Celtic game and a few gers who travel up on a very regular basic.

dcfcsteve, is it correct to sum your problem regarding the PL fans in Ireland as follows:

A few thousand people living in one country turning their backs on their own local team to support another one which they actually have no connection with.

Is that a fair summation???

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Originally Posted by reder

dcfcsteve, is it correct to sum your problem regarding the PL fans in Ireland as follows:

A few thousand people living in one country turning their backs on their own local team to support another one which they actually have no connection with.

Is that a fair summation???

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I would suggest that the vast majority can't be described as ever having turned their backs on their local team (or on the whole league or the whole sport here); that was done in the generations before them by people who had actually followed the local league in the first place. And they do have a connection to these English teams, whether or not it strikes eircom-League purists as pathetic to call it such; not, obviously, the same kind of connection someone who is local to the English teams has, but a tradition they have been soaked in since baby infants. That is not to defend it or say it's not an embarrassing state of affairs or to imply that that's how it should be; it just is the case.

It's not as if everyone on the road all goes to the local matches with their dads until they hit twelve or thirteen and then they just start rebelling and selling out their family/neighbourhood heritage and following the foreign Premiership, leaving their mortified families shaking their heads sadly at the thought of it. Almost nobody over here has that heritage to sell out in the first place nowadays.