Kevin Doyle

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

On what basis is he good enough to play for a top 6 side? Since you think the managers of top 6 sides are wonderful (see above), none obviously agreed with your assessment. Doyle had a good first season in the Premiership, a poor second and, injury aside, didn't perform in the latter half of the Championship campaign. Not the stuff of a player destined for the Top 6. I think he did well to get an offer to play in the Premiership.

I think you underrate Mick, overrate Doyle but hopefully both do well. I know if DOyle doesn't do well, it will all be laid at McCarthy's door

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In fairness though, you can't really judge Doyle's performances on goals. He hasn't been scoring many for us but he's been top class. The game in Italy was the only game he didn't do well in because Cannavaro was too good for him.

Hull, West Ham, Fulham and Portsmouth had bids in for the striker that Celtic signed, Fortune. I've only seen him this pre-season but that, along with his goalscoring record, I'd say there's no way he's on Doyles level (that's not saying Fortune looks bad). Doyle would have got more bids for him if he held out but he's obviously happy to go to Wolves.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

In fairness though, you can't really judge Doyle's performances on goals. He hasn't been scoring many for us but he's been top class. The game in Italy was the only game he didn't do well in because Cannavaro was too good for him.

Hull, West Ham, Fulham and Portsmouth had bids in for the striker that Celtic signed, Fortune. I've only seen him this pre-season but that, along with his goalscoring record, I'd say there's no way he's on Doyles level (that's not saying Fortune looks bad). Doyle would have got more bids for him if he held out but he's obviously happy to go to Wolves.

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Bit harsh, Doyle wasnt fit in that game

Don't think it's harsh. Cannavaro is the best in the world on form. Richie Dunne was too good for Vucinic but I wouldn't mind him playing for us.

Doyle was wrecked before that Italy game even started. I'm sure he would say the same himself

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

In fairness though, you can't really judge Doyle's performances on goals.

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I think you have to judge a striker on goals. That's his primary business. I know he has to work hard, defend sometimes etc etc but goals are a striker's bread and butter.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think you have to judge a striker on goals. That's his primary business. I know he has to work hard, defend sometimes etc etc but goals are a striker's bread and butter.

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Sometimes a striker's primary job might not be to score goals, for example if he was the lone man in a 451 or like Rooney when he was paired with van Nistelrooy. It depends on what role the manager gives them. Doyle's best attributes are not is goalscoring so it is unfair to judge him on that. For somebody to judge a player purely on goals scored it shows that they do not have a decent knowledge of football and rely on stats to form their opinions.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think you have to judge a striker on goals. That's his primary business. I know he has to work hard, defend sometimes etc etc but goals are a striker's bread and butter.

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Really? I always think it depends on the type of striker. Ian Wright scored more goals in less games than Dennis Bergkamp for Arsenal, but I think that Bergkamp was both a better player and more important to Arsenal than Wright. As for Doyle, he works really hard up front, and I think this shows by Robbie's excellent scoring record lately.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think you have to judge a striker on goals. That's his primary business. I know he has to work hard, defend sometimes etc etc but goals are a striker's bread and butter.

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Two words - Emile Heskey.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Two words - Emile Heskey.

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One word: donkey!

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Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

For somebody to judge a player purely on goals scored it shows that they do not have a decent knowledge of football and rely on stats to form their opinions.

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I think I have a decent knowledge of football without relying on stats, thanks. Someone who thinks that a striker,s primary purpose is not to score goals is talking through his hind quarters. Of course strikers should have numerous other attributes but their primary role in a game must be to score goals. Even target men like Quinn, Crouch, Cascarino scored goals. I am a great fan of Doyle but I am convinced that the reason the top teams didn't come in for him was that he didn't score enough goals. But then again the top managers probably don't "have a decent knowledge of football".

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Two words - Emile Heskey.

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Emile Heskey is an overrated donkey. He had long since found his level when he was playing for relegation threatened Birmingham and a struggling Wigan team and now just because Wigan had a decent season thanks mostly to foreign players such as Zaki (first half of the year) and Valencia the media pluck Heskey's name out of the woodwork as one of the main reasons for their impressive form because he's the only English International in the starting 11 conveniently ignoring the fact that Wigan's performances improved once he left while Villa's deteriorated. It's almost comical sometimes. He will fade back into obscurity at Villa this year. Carew is a far superior forward.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

One word: donkey!

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That's a massive disservice to Heskey, he's become quite the accomplished player since leaving Liverpool, and has worked his way into becoming an essential member of the England squad, despite not scoring regularly.
Some recent quotes:
from http://www.football365.com/report/0,...115328,00.html

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And he [Capello] will thanks his lucky stars once again he has someone of the ability of Rooney and a willing work-horse ally in Emile Heskey to call upon for the battles ahead.

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from http://tiscali.football365.com/Story...367834,00.html

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Lampard said: "Emile is fantastic. His work-rate is brilliant and what he has done since he has come back into the squad has been top class.
"He is a great lad and he deserves a lot of credit. He deserved his goal against Kazakhstan but goalscoring is not all of his game.

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from http://www.football365.com/report/0,...115328,00.html

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It is only relatively late in his career that Emile Heskey's worth has truly been appreciated.
Michael Owen was happy to extol the virtues of a former Liverpool team-mate given a large number of his 40 England goals were scored when the pair were in the same side.
Now it is Rooney's turn to profit from Heskey's selfless industry, the battering ram who blasts open doors for the craftsman. The priceless striker who does not score.

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from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle4916873.ece

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There is no greater indication of the quiet revolution in the national game achieved by Fabio Capello, the England manager, than the news of an injury scare involving Emile Heskey being perceived as a bigger blow than the absence of John Terry for the World Cup qualifying tie against Kazakhstan tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think I have a decent knowledge of football without relying on stats, thanks. Someone who thinks that a striker,s primary purpose is not to score goals is talking through his hind quarters. Of course strikers should have numerous other attributes but their primary role in a game must be to score goals. Even target men like Quinn, Crouch, Cascarino scored goals. I am a great fan of Doyle but I am convinced that the reason the top teams didn't come in for him was that he didn't score enough goals. But then again the top managers probably don't "have a decent knowledge of football".

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Top managers like Capello?
from http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...ts-963604.html

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Capello said: "Emile Heskey is very important for us. He has good movement, he is strong, he is quick - and Heskey and Wayne Rooney do very well together.

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What else do you expect him to say about a player he picks? "Heskey is a donkey, that's why I play him". Of course he will lavish paeans of praise upon his head because he is picking him as there is really no other choice of centre forward other than the bean pole Crouch and....hmmm, a then unfit Owen. He uses him as a battering ram like we did Casc and Quinn. Didn't he also score a good few goals for Liverpool in his first season there and but has been in decline as a goal scorer ever since. He definitely was signed by Liverpool as a striker (goal scorer).

Even though I may know nothing about football in my 40+ years going to games, I will stand by my apparently sacriligious comment that the primary purpose of a striker is to score goals and Doyle's failing in that department of late cost him a signing for a bigger club.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Even though I may know nothing about football in my 40+ years going to games, I will stand by my apparently sacriligious comment that the primary purpose of a striker is to score goals and Doyle's failing in that department of late cost him a signing for a bigger club.

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Doyle spent pretty much the 2nd half of last season carrying an ankle injury so that might go some way to explaining the dip in form he had then

Owls Fan, with all due respect, Heskey is a very effective player.
I think I'd trust Martin O'Neill and Fabio Capello's view of the player over yours here.

To say he is an overrated donkey is ridiculous. I was actually watching an old Soccer AM interview with Michael Owen last night and he said that Heskey was the best strike partner he ever had!

To say a striker should be only judged on goals is a very narrow minded view, particularly with respect to this current national team and the impetus Trap attaches to defending from the front!

Was Ernie Wise funny? Not really, but he made Eric Morecambe very funny. If he could have done it by himself it'd just have been the Morecambe show.

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Originally Posted by joema

To say a striker should be only judged on goals is a very narrow minded view, particularly with respect to this current national team and the impetus Trap attaches to defending from the front!

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Please find where I said a striker should be judged only on goals. I said the primary purpose - not the only purpose.

Yes, Doyle's form was undoubtedly hampered by the injury in the middle of the season (he actually started the season off very well in the goal scoring department and contributed a hat trick to the 6 they put Wednesday:o). However, he did play the last couple of months I think and other than 1 goal (against Wednesday of course) he didn't find the net as far as I remember and may even have been dropped for a game or two. A top 6 team is not going to pick a player on that form, heresy and all saying that might be to some on here.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

One word: donkey!

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Emile Heskey is an overrated donkey. He had long since found his level when he was playing for relegation threatened Birmingham and a struggling Wigan team and now just because Wigan had a decent season thanks mostly to foreign players such as Zaki (first half of the year) and Valencia the media pluck Heskey's name out of the woodwork as one of the main reasons for their impressive form because he's the only English International in the starting 11 conveniently ignoring the fact that Wigan's performances improved once he left while Villa's deteriorated. It's almost comical sometimes. He will fade back into obscurity at Villa this year. Carew is a far superior forward.

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The two of you have failed to realise that tets initial point was mainly about style of play, not how good a player Heskey is. But that's gone way over your heads.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think I have a decent knowledge of football without relying on stats, thanks.

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I didn't mean that in my first post, just meant in general so apologies if you took that the wrong way.

What you've said afterwards actually proves that to be the case though, ironically.

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Someone who thinks that a striker,s primary purpose is not to score goals is talking through his hind quarters. Of course strikers should have numerous other attributes but their primary role in a game must be to score goals.

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Do you think a holding midfielder's primary purpose is to create chances? Or a winger to defend? Or a playmaker to win ball? As has been said it is all dependant on what role the manager gives the player.

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Even target men like Quinn, Crouch, Cascarino scored goals.

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And that automatically makes it their primary purpose then?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

He uses him as a battering ram like we did Casc and Quinn.

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I thought a striker's primary purpose was apparantly to score goals? So now you admit that managers use strikers in different ways...

Is Kevin Doyle's strike rate really that bad? Compare him to other international strikers, who play in better teams than us;

Kevin Doyle: 6 goals in 26 international appearances. (0.23 goals per game)
Karim Benzema: 6 goals in 24 apps. (0.25)
Nicolas Anelka: 12 in 57 (0.21)
Jermain Defoe: 8 in 34 (0.23)
Hugo Almeida: 3 in 20 (0.15)
Ivica Olic: 11 in 64 (0.17)
Carlos Tevez: 8 in 51 (0.15)
Vincenzo Iaquinta: 4 in 31 (0.12)

I know that statistics aren't everything, but the above does suggest that Doyle's goalscoring record isn't necessarily a stick with which to beat him; and it proves the point that strikers shoudn't be judged on goals alone. Doyle's performances for Ireland have been excellent - he's good in the air, can shoot with both feet, his control is excellent, and he's shown an intelligence, honesty and physical bravery while leading the line that belies his relatively small (5'11') physique. While he lacks the bit of magic and ruthlessness that sets the top players apart, he's an extremely capable forward player. If he stays fit and gets any kind of service, he should prove that this year.

As an aside...

Fernando Torres: 22 in 67 (0.32)
Robbie Keane: 39 in 90 (0.43)

:)

As a further aside:

David Healy 35 in 74 (.47)
John Dahl Tomasson 51 in 102 (.5)
Alexander Frei 39 in 67 (.58)

International football is becoming a more dangerous way to rate a striker! There are probably more games against countries of less quality which skew the stats. Smaller countries have a smaller base to choose from also.

You have to look at the bigger picture

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Please find where I said a striker should be judged only on goals. I said the primary purpose - not the only purpose.

Yes, Doyle's form was undoubtedly hampered by the injury in the middle of the season (he actually started the season off very well in the goal scoring department and contributed a hat trick to the 6 they put Wednesday:o). However, he did play the last couple of months I think and other than 1 goal (against Wednesday of course) he didn't find the net as far as I remember and may even have been dropped for a game or two. A top 6 team is not going to pick a player on that form, heresy and all saying that might be to some on here.

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Ok, sorry, My mistake. Replace "only" with "mainly" so! My point still stands.

Each player should be judged on his own merits. Heskey is a very effective player, and so is Doyle.

We don't know what type of striker each manager is after, so to say that Doyle wasn't signed by a more established Premiership team because he didn't score so many goals last can't be proven.