Republic of Ireland V Scotland - Saturday, 13th June 2015 - Euro 2016 Qualifier

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

Exactly, the analogy made was that O'Neill is in charge of a group of players who wouldn't look out of place in the Championship. That is all.

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I think it's a bad analogy. I don't see how it's analogous to the discussion. We have Wilson, Whelan, Walters, Coleman, McCarthy, McGeady, Gibson, Long and Keane as the main players in the team. None of those players are familiar to a relegation battle. You say the bottom end of the PL is similar to the top end of the Championship but even so, those lads don't play in the bottom end of the PL. Even O'Shea who has had a lean two years with Sunderland has spent over a decade at Man Utd and amassed over a hundred Intl. caps; with that experience he shouldn't be overawed by playing at this level nor affected by his teams placing in the PL.

I found what Murray said to be very condescending TBH.

Furthermore on its analogousness. Poland are the second best team in the group. They have Lewandowski, Kuba, Krychowiak and Piszczek. Lewa is world class, arguably, and even he is fit to be off-loaded by Bayern. Kuba and Piszczek are very good players, not miles away from what we have, and they have been severely affected by injuries. Then there is Krychowiak. Apart from that there is a hodgepodge of players playing in China, Poland, Russia, bottom feeding German clubs, no-one that would, as you say, "look out of place in the Championship".

I don't see the relevance.

Germany. It's the only team in the group and one of a maximum of 8-10 in Europe who would look largely out of place in the Championship. Don't mistake me they are much better than us, but before we even play them we are losing the psychological battle. I feel we don't even consider the possibility of beating them. Even Scotland beat world class France & Italy teams shortly after their Intl. successes! We just don't have the bottle to go toe to toe though.

I mean look at the game six odd months ago. They had a novice at RB in Antonio Rudiger; struggling domestically at club level with Stuttgart. We didn't try to exploit this at all. Philipp Lahm might as well have been playing. Durm, Ginter, Boateng, Bellarabi, Draxler - not world beaters I am sorry. No out and out striker. Mario Gotze & Bastien Schweinsteiger their best known players and they lose their places at club level.

Even now, from top to bottom, the organisation to the media to the fans talk as if we will be taking a hammering in Dublin.

We just downplay our qualities too much and play up the opposition too much. It needs to stop. And as has been said by others, we need to stop trying just to cancel out the opposition and nullify their strengths. We just have to focus on ourselves and maximise our qualities! Exploit anything you see as a potential weakness in the opposition. Whether it is Antonio Rudiger of Germany or Matt bleedin' Ritchie of Scotland!

It's that old chestnut again " we haven't got the players". For what? Win groups - absolutely we don't have the players. You'd want to be bonkers to think we should be winning groups with the players we have, unless we get lucky with our number one seed.

But do we have the players to be competitive against any second, third or fourth seed? I think we do. You don't need a Roy Keane in your side to think you can have a good go at beating Scotland at home without thinking your best option is a long ball.

I'm not critical of O'Neill's belief in set pieces. Almost every big home Champions League result at Celtic was won from a penalty, a free or a Larsson or Sutton header from a Thompson corner. I'd love if a stattto here can go back over each home goal scored in a CL group stage under O'Neill.

I think we are where we deserve to be so far but the frustrating thing is that we have been architects of our own downfall at home to Poland and away in Scotland, and to a large extent again yesterday. I think we lack a bit of professionalism and that includes our attitude.

Maybe it's time to play one of or both Coleman and Brady in wide midfield to get the most out of them and play Ward at full back.

I think we all overstate how bad he is sometimes (me included). He is solid enough.

Northern Ireland's RB plays for Fleetwood Town in League One and he has took to this level like a duck in water.

A lot of very good comments on here lads. But what is the take away from all of this discussion? For me it is the fact that we need to change the coaching system at home - that's priority number 1. Look at the players Uruguay, Chile, Holland, Belgium produce. All smaller nations with populations of 10 million or under. And in terms of playing for the shirt, as someone pointed out, we could do with a bit of the same sort of pride shown by Costa Rica in last year's World Cup. Another take away is that we have to invest in / change drastically / and then support the LOI. Strange as it may sound the road to Irish international success, as has been stated by several former footballers, is through the LOI.

The English system for our young players is no longer an option. I've pointed this out elsewhere, here's a rough breakdown of exactly why.

Of the 14 players that played last night, five of them made their senior starts in the League of Ireland, Coleman, McClean, Hoolahan, Murphy and Long. Three of those are arguably our better performers in the last couple of years at club and international level.

Of the rest of the squad, Forde, Quinn, Meyler and Ward also played League of Ireland. 9 players from 15 Irish born in the squad came through the League of Ireland.

8 of the rest are players in born in different countries.

Only 6 Irish born players came through youth systems in the UK in the entire squad, of which only Brady and Hendrick are under 30 years of age.

It's time investment and focus was placed on the League of Ireland. The FAI really need to step up here.

I agree Nigel and clearly the whole shape and organisation of our game and the FAI needs to be addressed. But that's not to say we shouldn't debate the way we approach these games.

In fairness a lot of what I read in the papers this morning was complimentary about the first half. That's probably reasonable. Goals and results change everything.

Yesterday evening I felt so depressed that I wanted to go to bed and sleep for a week. How Ireland turned a lead into a draw is beyond me, though they didn't lose, which is vital. I do not blame JD, MON, RMK or anyone involved with the National team with the fact that we didn't manage to turn over a decent Scottish side. Only a short time ago were were thrilled with a draw against Germany, and beating the crap out of a good Polish side and getting a draw. Of course our players play with fear, it's not the management, it's everything associated with our team. Our media, the stunts by media, by "fans", the ott reaction to every little decision. Yet all the time our game rots from the had down and @rse up.

ED had it very correct last night but didn't go far enough in shutting up RS. The DDSL and all the other little moneymaking fiefdoms in Irish football are tearing the soul out of the game. We supporters of the LOI decry the lack of effort by the FAI in promoting and developing the league - yet how long ago was it since the LOI clubs re-signed with the FAI? The same clubs we support sold out the supporters because they'd rather pass the buck.

And our media and JD and fans all pontificating about FIFA and corruption - when we cannot organise a proper developmental system in our own country with accountability and transparency - because we're all a bunch of self-interested lumps who want everything done for us. In other words - humans! So until we change how football is organised within our own country, we're never going to get another generation as we had in the 1980's/90's/00's.

And sitting watching Russia play a good Austria side - Russia lost their 2 centre backs within 10 minutes and one sub is a 19 year old who's played CL and Cup only for CSKA, yet he's a good skilled kid. And beside him is another novice. Would any of our 18/19 year olds be able to step up to the senior side, or would our management just do what is right and blood them - and pay the price later?

I love the self interested lumps bit. I think we have got all the raw ingredients to make a big success of our game. Even the LOI with some imagination, backing and, in my opinion, strong politicking at UEFA level can be turned into something at the very heart of a national success story. But most fans are instant gratification junkies that want things done for them but who won't give anything back.

But for those who harp on about how great the rugby and GAA guys are and how they engage kids so well and how sh1t everything football related is, this piece by Liam Mackey on Friday really heartened me:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/c...nt-336731.html

The evidence for the latter can be found at Cabinteely FC in south County Dublin today where the club’s mini-World Cup reaches its climax. Running for the last10 days and playing host to over 1,100 hundred young boys and girls assigned to 108 teams, the 26th staging of this inspiring community event suggests that if trickle-up was a stronger force than trickle-down, the very top of the football pyramid would be a lot prettier to behold.

Down here at the base, meanwhile, the spectacle is simply a joy to behold, the Cabinteely club, in conjunction with local sponsors, advertisers and, most of all, an extremely hard-working volunteer corps, making the running of a tournament of considerable complexity seem exactly like what it so successively provides – child’s play.

And, of course, there are many other clubs around the country doing no less sterling work, if not quite on the same scale as this.

To them all, I doff my cap.

I should, however, declare a personal interest here:

my seven-year-old daughter’s team, the mighty Niger, are up against the no less mighty Libya in a semi-final in Cabinteely today, leaving me with just one small question: Should events conspire to see Niger eliminated in perhaps contentious circumstances, to whom do I need to speak about, um, compensation?

Answers on the back of a brown envelope, please.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Of course our players play with fear, it's not the management, it's everything associated with our team.........ED had it very correct last night but didn't go far enough in shutting up RS. The DDSL and all the other little moneymaking fiefdoms in Irish football are tearing the soul out of the game. We supporters of the LOI decry the lack of effort by the FAI in promoting and developing the league - yet how long ago was it since the LOI clubs re-signed with the FAI? The same clubs we support sold out the supporters because they'd rather pass the buck....... So until we change how football is organised within our own country, we're never going to get another generation as we had in the 1980's/90's/00's.

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Good to see a comment like this. At least we are beginning to identify the forces which are inhibiting the development of players in Ireland. I am not that familiar with the DDSL but have heard nothing but negativity about them from a lot of people I trust. So if you are reading on here (members of the DDSL) will you pay heed to these comments? Will you do your part by changing your ways and allowing young kids to develop properly? Decades and decades of doing things the wrong way were manifested on the pitch at the Aviva last night. You can help. Let's hope you do.

By the way, not sure if this has been mentioned, but the moment after the Scotland goal was the most surreal moment I've ever experienced in Lansdowne Road.

Are we the only professional team in sporting history to celebrate an away goal with music via the PA system? I reckon we might be. It was a disgusting moment.

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

By the way, not sure if this has been mentioned, but the moment after the Scotland goal was the most surreal moment I've ever experienced in Lansdowne Road.

Are we the only professional team in sporting history to celebrate an away goal with music via the PA system? I reckon we might be. It was a disgusting moment.

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But sure Celtic are Irish, so really, Scotland are kinda Irish so it makes it okay.

The amount of cringey Irish flags with Celtic badges and 'Hail Hail' all over the place was embarrassing too. Biggest contradiction of the day really. I respect anyones right to support whatever team they want, but leave it at home on a day like that.

I was going to go on another tangent but I decided not to veer off-topic, suffice to say that Irish people long for the approval of Scottish people and it's rather one-sided.

Go to Scotland and it's like being home with the amount of Irish people spoofing around over there.

In all my years in Ireland I have only ever met one Scottish person.

Edit: One of my college lecturers was Scottish. Lovely Woman. Still, only two.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Good to see a comment like this. At least we are beginning to identify the forces which are inhibiting the development of players in Ireland. I am not that familiar with the DDSL but have heard nothing but negativity about them from a lot of people I trust. So if you are reading on here (members of the DDSL) will you pay heed to these comments? Will you do your part by changing your ways and allowing young kids to develop properly? Decades and decades of doing things the wrong way were manifested on the pitch at the Aviva last night. You can help. Let's hope you do.

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i have heard that the NDSL is extremely progressive, almost a model of international best practice, but that they are just eaten by the DDSL vampire squid.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

i have heard that the NDSL is extremely progressive, almost a model of international best practice, but that they are just eaten by the DDSL vampire squid.

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Disappointing to hear that the DDSL have such a monopoly / negative influence. I guess the only thing that can be done is to call them out on this as much as we can. Because unless we can effect change at the youth level we will be looking at years and years of abject performances from the national team.

Yea maybe we spend too much time looking at the frailties in our team rather then looking for weaknesses in the opposition.

I thought it was going to be a 1-1 draw, we are so predictable really. I'm surprised the odds were as decent as they were on a 1-1 draw!

After the draw was made for these groups, I felt Wales and SCotland were better than us forgetting about anything about individual players, which was the counter argument at the time, citing Strachan and some decent results for Scotland both home and away i feared they would get the upper hand on us. They have and it's been so predictable, O'Neill didnt need to be bold at home he needed to be bold in that away game, and we are caught out again, just like we were under Trap.

I am still trying to understand the selection with the formation, one negates the other, if playing hoolahan then play speedy forwards and wingers, don't play him with walters and murphy, I really dont see the point in that. I thought Wes got very tired towards the end and he wasn't tracking back so I know why he was taken off, but we should have gone with a different formation. Walters did well but he is part of the problem in that we just lob it up to him and although he does his job, that job is not very effective in producing anything of merit.

We were so laboured and slow, lacked any urgency, a few people used the word urgency to me, and its something we have lacked for a very long time. We were drawing, needing a win and lads were trudging over and no one wanting to take a throw, and then no one coming for a throw, there is a distinct lack of a leader on the pitch to command the ball and drive the players. And if we are going to play as a set piece team and that's all we are going to do, its the only game plan then Please God make sure we have it drilled and rehearsed again and again. Countless times we over-hit, or under-hit, taking the wrong option of going low when we should have gone high etc. We lacked co-ordination. I really didn't think we played that well in the first half, we created little, and had few shots on goal, we had possession and held onto the ball, but I think that clouded how we played overall. I was really hoping that O'Neill would have instilled in them to go out and finish them off, but the usual dopey sloppiness comes back to haunt us. I'd love to see an accumulation of all those type goals we have conceded.

I also don't agree with O'Neill saying we didnt want half time to come. We did we were so slow and drawn after we scored, I was praying for half time to get us going again. Whats really worrying, and again mentioned in the past is O'Neill is definitely not seeing what most of us are seeing out there.

Brady looked very tired in the second half and he really looked like he didnt want the ball he just kept crossing straight away with the head down without really thinking or looking. I think that shows that the team don't really know what the role is or how they should play and its hit(hoofed) and hope!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

i have heard that the NDSL is extremely progressive, almost a model of international best practice, but that they are just eaten by the DDSL vampire squid.

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They probably are, the difficulty they have is that the DDSL clubs have the name to attract all the best players. So they wouldn't be working with the same quality. But plans are afoot to break the stranglehold of these clubs and transfer it to the LOI clubs, not before time

One thing that really annoyed me was Given refusing to role the ball out to Coleman or Wilson and waving his arms about indicating he's kicking it long. Especially after they scored, we had plenty of time to score. We should be trying to play not lump it forward in the 50th minute.

Paul and Sean, would just one willing and able central midfielder change all that? I think it could.

Paul is right about picking Wes with the front two he picked. He's not the only one who made the point either. I referred to it as picking a mallet as the weapon of choice but also packing a penknife just in case the mallet doesn't work. But if you pick Wes surely you pick someone who makes the clever runs.

Ya but we said this before the game as well.

I think with the more sensible options, and a more brave approach we would be sitting in a lot better position than we find ourselves in. Sadly I dont think Kerr/Trap/MON could give us that. I do think Strachan would have if he were in charge, or other similar ones. It's funny most people on here laughed and ridiculed strachan yet he is doing a much better job than oneill is for us, and getting Scotland to at least a play-off, for the first time in a very long time.

I'd be interested to see that stat you mentioned, because I do think luck plays a part but over the course of a campaign it evens itself out, and we are solely focused and told to play for the set pieces, yet we get very little from it.