Ciaran Clark D Free agent b.1989

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Well they briefly experimented with with him at CB at the start of the season

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Experimented? You do realise he's played CB all his life? Not to mention when he made his senior debut at CB against Fulham, at the start of last season.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

which pretty much ended with a serious humping by Newcastle in which he had a horrendous time, and I can only recall him starting there once since I think.

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No. This season Clark has started at CB five times (and came on at CB for 80 minutes against Chelsea) and has started at CM four times (coming off the bench against Fulham). Since that Newcastle 'humping', he's started at CB twice (as well as 80 mins against Chelsea game).

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Originally Posted by Adrock

He's playing where he is at the moment to break up play and get the ball to Downing and Young as thats Villa's game plan and he can do the same for us, with maybe Gibson alongside him as more of a playmaker.

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Bottom line is this - Clark playing in midfield has nothing at all to do with form or tactics and everything to do with necessity. Villa have four senior CM's missing and he's playing there as an emergency CM. Incidentally this emergency is why Villa are also playing a 4'3' Scottish hobbit and a reserve no-hoper in midfield. And it's why they've signed a geriatric Frenchman with the pace of a tyreless bicycle...

Anyway since his debut at midfield, Reo Coker and Sidwell have both been chosen instead of Clark when fit. Hardly suggests Houllier really thinks he's a viable option beyond a stop gap.

Anyone who's seen him play much would likely agree.His performances at CM have been patchy. His positioning is poor, and he struggles to do just what you suggest he's there to do (break up play). Right now I'm putting this down to inexperience, his postitioning and reading of the game will improve if he's gets more time at CM. And on the plus side, he's very composed on the ball. But his CB performances have been so assured I wouldn't see the point on keeping him there when Villa's midfield returns to fitness.

Things might change. But right now he deserves a call-up based largely on his CB performances which have been far more consistent and impressive imo.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Given the sparcity of alternative options seems as good a gameplan as any.

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Call me old fashioned but I like to select people on form and merit. If the only argument for playing Clark at midfield is because he can play in midfield then it's hardly worth debating. O'Shea and Killer can play centre mid as well but that doesn't mean they should.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Experimented? You do realise he's played CB all his life? Not to mention when he made his senior debut at CB against Fulham, at the start of last season.



Bottom line is this - Clark playing in midfield has nothing at all to do with form or tactics and everything to do with necessity. Villa have four senior CM's missing and he's playing there as an emergency CM. Incidentally this emergency is why Villa are also playing a 4'3' Scottish hobbit and a reserve no-hoper in midfield. And it's why they've signed a geriatric Frenchman with the pace of a tyreless bicycle...

Things might change. But right now he deserves a call-up based largely on his CB performances which have been far more consistent and impressive imo.



Call me old fashioned but I like to select people on form and merit. If the only argument for playing Clark at midfield is because he can play in midfield then it's hardly worth debating. O'Shea and Killer can play centre mid as well but that doesn't mean they should.

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If you cant get in the Villa defence ahead of James Collins who is responsible directly for 60% of the goals Wales concede (and thats a lot) and looks an accident waiting to happen for Villa it doesnt tend to suggest either O'Neil or Houllier rate his centreback skills as highly as you. Are you watching the Liverpool game? If I've learnt one thing from watching Clark's performances this season, its that he seems a lot more proficient attacking the opponent's penalty box than he is defending his own. I'll keep an open mind on the lad as its still early days but being a midfielder of limited capacaties still puts him ahead on merit of members of our national squad with no capacities at all that seem to disappear in to the black hole in the middle of the pitch throughout Trap's tenure.

Subbed off at half-time today. I didn't see the game, but any time I have seen him he hasn't looked anything great yet. It is great to see a young Irish guy in an EPL starting XI but I don't think that necessarily means he should be fast tracked in to the Irish XI.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

If you cant get in the Villa defence ahead of James Collins who is responsible directly for 60% of the goals Wales concede (and thats a lot) and looks an accident waiting to happen for Villa it doesnt tend to suggest either O'Neil or Houllier rate his centreback skills as highly as you. Are you watching the Liverpool game? If I've learnt one thing from watching Clark's performances this season, its that he seems a lot more proficient attacking the opponent's penalty box than he is defending his own. I'll keep an open mind on the lad as its still early days but being a midfielder of limited capacaties still puts him ahead on merit of members of our national squad with no capacities at all that seem to disappear in to the black hole in the middle of the pitch throughout Trap's tenure.

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Clarke is left-sided so he'd mainly be competing with Dunne for a shirt, unless Dunne were to move across to his less-favoured side. It could work but then again it might not, and Collins is a quality players whose form has just dipped at the moment, just like our Richard.

Clark played OK today and I thought he was a little unlucky to get hooked. Hogg was probably Villa's only good performer on the day so it's understandable.

He looked a bit lost against Liverpool. Lucas and Meireles were running the show in midfield and neither Clark or Hogg could get anywhere near them for much of the game and didn't get much help from Ireland either. Don't think he's going to be a central midfielder in the long run anyway.

It's hard for a young player to settle in to a losing team. Early days.

Wonder where the "O'Neill out!" Villa fans are now?

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Originally Posted by Jicked

Subbed off at half-time today. I didn't see the game, but any time I have seen him he hasn't looked anything great yet. It is great to see a young Irish guy in an EPL starting XI but I don't think that necessarily means he should be fast tracked in to the Irish XI.

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I thought he was better than most games, and he was miles ahead of Ireland performance-wise. He shouldn't have been taken off at half-time. Picked up yet another stupid booking though.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

If you cant get in the Villa defence ahead of James Collins who is responsible directly for 60% of the goals Wales concede (and thats a lot) and looks an accident waiting to happen for Villa it doesnt tend to suggest either O'Neil or Houllier rate his centreback skills as highly as you. Are you watching the Liverpool game? If I've learnt one thing from watching Clark's performances this season, its that he seems a lot more proficient attacking the opponent's penalty box than he is defending his own. I'll keep an open mind on the lad as its still early days but being a midfielder of limited capacaties still puts him ahead on merit of members of our national squad with no capacities at all that seem to disappear in to the black hole in the middle of the pitch throughout Trap's tenure.

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Don't know what Collins' performances for Wales have to do with anything. Anyway the only argument you're making is that Clark can't displace two international standard, experienced defenders who both had very fine seasons last year and are currently playing terribly. Personally I'd have Clark over either of them, but if Houllier (who I don't particularly rate) really wants to stick with them it's fair enough given their experience and past performances.

Your argument also ignores the key point I was making - Clark is a CB by trade and his performances there have been better. He was totally bypassed last night and outshone by Hogg, a player who isn't much cop but is actually a midfielder.

I'm not having a go at him cos I think he's great - I just think if anyone's really advocating him for midfield, then they haven't really seen him play.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

It's hard for a young player to settle in to a losing team. Early days.

Wonder where the "O'Neill out!" Villa fans are now?

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No one's really having a go at him, it's about where he's best employed. Having watched him extensively, it's hands down centre half for me. He settled in there very well at the start of the season.

Great points Swan, I tend to agree. I'm excited that we've got Clark now, but not entirely sure midfield is his position. As you say, looked a bit lost against Liverpool for large chunks of time. Definitely looked like a centre-half playing in midfield rather than a natural midfielder.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Wonder where the "O'Neill out!" Villa fans are now?

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In Clark's case I don't think we should care, as he wouldn't have received the amount of opportunities he has had, if O'Neill had still been in charge.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

In Clark's case I don't think we should care, as he wouldn't have received the amount of opportunities he has had, if O'Neill had still been in charge.

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In fairness I don't think that's strictly true. O'Neill gave Clark his debut last season and kept him in the squad ahead of Curtis Davies. And Clark would surely been heavily involved this season no matter who was in charge due to Villa's injury problems.

It's not really relevant to Clark but I'm with OwlsFan - Houllier's reaching O'Leary levels of popularity with Villa fans in record time.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

In fairness I don't think that's strictly true. O'Neill gave Clark his debut last season and kept him in the squad ahead of Curtis Davies. And Clark would surely been heavily involved this season no matter who was in charge due to Villa's injury problems.

It's not really relevant to Clark but I'm with OwlsFan - Houllier's reaching O'Leary levels of popularity with Villa fans in record time.

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He only played once all season though. What's a mystery to me is why they consistently leave Carlos Cuellar - a defender of some real class- out of the team and keep on playing a donkey like Ginge Collins. Ultimatley Villa are a squad that has suffered for lack of investment as well as dubious transfer decisions (getting rid of Cahill and Whittingham and wasting most their transfer budget on Curtis Davies) and that catches up on you after a while.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

In fairness I don't think that's strictly true.

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Whilst perhaps not strictly true, it is mostly true. ;)

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Originally Posted by Adrock

He only played once all season though. What's a mystery to me is why they consistently leave Carlos Cuellar - a defender of some real class- out of the team and keep on playing a donkey like Ginge Collins. Ultimatley Villa are a squad that has suffered for lack of investment as well as dubious transfer decisions (getting rid of Cahill and Whittingham and wasting most their transfer budget on Curtis Davies) and that catches up on you after a while.

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He only played once because Dunne and Collins were really excellent last year, which makes their current form all the more baffling. I'm with you on Cuellar as are most Villa fans, but like I said Collins really did play well last season (much to my surprise as well). He can play a bit but him and Dunne are well out of it so far this season. Also Villa's problems go way beyond letting an Championship level midfielder (Whittingham) and signing a promising, if occasionally ropey, centre half. ;) I actually think Davies could yet turn into a top notch centre half.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Whilst perhaps not strictly true, it is mostly true. ;)

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Ok I'll rephrase - it's not really true at all. ;)

Fly, you write more sense when you just provide a link :D

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Ok I'll rephrase - it's not really true at all. ;)

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Forgive me for being pedantic, but, 'not really true at all' is not an alternate version of 'not strictly true'.

;)

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Originally Posted by geysir

Fly, you write more sense when you just provide a link :D

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In all seriousness though, I sincerely doubt that Clark, Bannan, Hogg etc.. would have received the amount of first-team opportunities that they have, had Martin O'Neill still been in charge. O'Neill has always played his favourites and was never really known for giving youth a chance.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

He only played once because Dunne and Collins were really excellent last year, which makes their current form all the more baffling. I'm with you on Cuellar as are most Villa fans, but like I said Collins really did play well last season (much to my surprise as well). He can play a bit but him and Dunne are well out of it so far this season. Also Villa's problems go way beyond letting an Championship level midfielder (Whittingham) and signing a promising, if occasionally ropey, centre half. ;) I actually think Davies could yet turn into a top notch centre half.

Ok I'll rephrase - it's not really true at all. ;)

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I think Whittingham's a Premiership quality player though just playing a division below his right level, much like Nolan last season. He's certainly be an asset for Villa now. The thing with O'Neil is he makes a big thing of signing English players, even if they are somewhat mediocre like Davies, Knight, Shorey and Harewood but then english players who come through their youth ranks have to go elsewhere to get an opportunity. I honestly think O'Neil would have found a way to get round having to use Clark, Hogg and even Albrighton as starters in their team as he is a little too conservative that way.

They seem to actually have a few Irish players in their youth squad now so hopefully they turn out a little better than Steven Foley and that Fahey guy they used to have.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

In all seriousness though, I sincerely doubt that Clark, Bannan, Hogg etc.. would have received the amount of first-team opportunities that they have, had Martin O'Neill still been in charge. O'Neill has always played his favourites and was never really known for giving youth a chance.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

I think Whittingham's a Premiership quality player though just playing a division below his right level, much like Nolan last season. He's certainly be an asset for Villa now. The thing with O'Neil is he makes a big thing of signing English players, even if they are somewhat mediocre like Davies, Knight, Shorey and Harewood but then english players who come through their youth ranks have to go elsewhere to get an opportunity. I honestly think O'Neil would have found a way to get round having to use Clark, Hogg and even Albrighton as starters in their team as he is a little too conservative that way.

They seem to actually have a few Irish players in their youth squad now so hopefully they turn out a little better than Steven Foley and that Fahey guy they used to have.

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Fair points and it really depends where you fall down on the MON debate. He definitely had his 'favourites' but he signed some decent players and moulded them into a highly competitive side.

Meanwhile this season has seen the emergence of younger players but we're struggling. It's a difficult question to even out. I'd like to think, particularly given the injuries this year, O'Neill would've turned to Albrighton and Clark, although he definitely didn't seem to rate Bannan.

Anyway it's must win this weekend for Villa and it'll be interesting to see what happens to Clark. There's a lot of support for recalling Cuellar and pairing him with Clark at CB, particularly with Ashley Young and possibly Bannan returning to midfield.

Just nodded in at the far post to make it 3-3 in the Chelsea - Villa game