Are we any good?

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Croatia - Hajduk and Dinamo are well known clubs with a strong european tradition. NK Zagreb, Osijek and Rijeka are three more clubs that are strong in domestic terms. They bring through their young players and export their best. They have 2 domestic players in their squad..

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But Hadjuk and Dinamo have not done much in Europe for the last decade or so. IIRC only Dinamo have made the group stage of the CL in the last 10 years and that was about 8-9 years ago. I appreciate that they knocked out Ajax and were very unlucky against Werder in the quals but then the flopped in the UEFA this season

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Serbia - they arent even in this tournament but ill allow you to bring them up. They are only the twentieth ranked league in UEFA despite having powerhouses like Red Star and Partizan. They have only been in two major finals since the split of Yugoslavia.

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They are a very strong team and when you factor into account things like the difficulty of their group (Poland, Portugal, Finland, Belgium etc) and the re-organisation after the Montenegran players left I think they had a much better showing than us. It's three finals anyway, Euro 2000, France 1998, World Cup 2006, prior to France 1998 they were banned from competitions and had issues playing home matches due to the war and sanctions. Red Star and Partizan were powerhouses, but now they are also-rans in terms of European Football. Partizan have made the group stage of the Champions League once, Crvena never. Cork ran them close 2-3 years ago (before they lost to Milan) and this season just gone they lost to Rangers.

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Sweden - they have an ultra competitive league with a number of clubs that have done well recently in Europe. IFK, Djurgardens, Malmo, Halmstad, Hammarby and Helsingborgs. Again, like Croatia they nurture their talent and export the best. And they do it brilliantly.

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Is the Swedish league really that strong though ? I remember Cork City beating Malmoe a few years ago, and I can't remember the last time a Swedish club was in the group stage of the Champions League (maybe AIK Solna in 1999-ish?).

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Poland - a well supported league with some good teams in European terms - Legia Warsaw, Krakow and Poznan would all be fairly well known teams. In their Euro squad they have 10 domestic players.

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Again, I don't think the Polish league is that strong, even Wislwa Krakow who've won most the of the last few years, have been poor in Europe.

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We rely on the English league to develop our players. England didnt qualify and are famously at crisis point in terms of the amount of English born players starting each week in the Premier League - what chance do we have in such a situation? Remote. Its down to pure luck that a crop of talented players will make an impact in England simultaneously.

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Exactly but my long term solution would be to encourage more of our players to move to the continent. If more of our players were exposed to different leagues and different styles of play they would develop more, and we could have better managers in a generation or so.

For Ireland, qualification for major tournaments has always rested on our ability to beat lesser teams. For USA 94, we picked up maximum points from our games with Albania, Latvia and Lithuania. For 2002, we took 18 points out of 18 against Cyprus, Andorra and Estonia. We failed to qualify for 2006 because of two draws with Israel, two games which we dominated but missed our chances. In 2000, it was two dropped points in Macedonia that cost us. In the last campaign, we dropped points against Cyprus and Slovakia, which left us playing catch-up. In the four games, we were quite competitive against Germany and the Czechs, despite the erratic team-selections and general mismanagement of the squad.

In international football, the saying rings true; 'you don't trip over a mountain, you trip over a stone.' Scotland threw away qualification for Euro 2008 with a defeat in Georgia. Northern Ireland beat Spain, Sweden and Denmark, yet were crippled by defeats to Iceland and Latvia. If we are to be competitive, we must beat the weaker teams; I firmly believe that we have better players than Cyprus, Georgia, Montenegro and Bulgaria, and I have faith in the team's ability, particularly under such an excellent manager, to turn things around. Our players have to be ruthless and confident when playing in the green jersey - it's the manager's job to instil these qualities in the team.

In the last three-and-a-half years, respective managers have utterly failed to extract any potential from the players at their disposal. Our results couldn't have been any worse. We don't know what our best team is, as we haven't played a meaningful game since last September. Thus, we don't know how good we really are, and will only really know by next April. But I'm optimistic; I can understand how disillusioned people feel, but if I remember correctly, a similar kind of pessimism surrounded the team before the 2002 qualifiers. History can repeat itself.:)

I totally agree. Good post.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

agreed, on current form the North is streets ahead of us. Trap can hopefully change that.

Im just surprised we are still able to convince their players to come to us... :o

"Are we any good?" The fact that we even have to ask that question really gives us our answer. No, we're not really that good. We arent terrible though. We're tough to beat at home and we have one or two quality players. Hopefully Trap can help us maximise our potential.

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

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This is nonsense. Two English teams played in the Champions League final with several of the English national team involved, and they didn't qualify. It's a different beast.

The Swedes have a strong history of getting beaten by Eircom League sides.

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Originally Posted by DotTV

This is nonsense. Two English teams played in the Champions League final with several of the English national team involved, and they didn't qualify. It's a different beast.

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The English league itself is a different beast. Add to that the other major leagues in Europe. Im talking about the smaller nations such as ourselves. Surely that much is clear?

to GavinZav - a quick look through various clubs records on Wikipedia shows that your comment is not really that accurate. Id say its 50/50 between Irish teams and Swedish teams though Cork and Derry have both done their fair share to even things up but please lets not get sidetracked by that.

To edmundo - Im not necessarily saying that the individual clubs are strong - im saying the leagues themselves are. They have self sufficient clubs with decent facilities, they have a decent record at European level, they attract good crowds, decent sponsorship and they supply their national team with good domestic players and the rest of the squads are players that are too good for their domestic league.

We dont have any of that, instead relying on the english leagues to bring our talent through - the same leagues that failed English born players and thus the English international team. What chance do we have in such a climate?

Once Turkey got club football working well and successfully, international success followed. Same with the Greek clubs. And Greece was suddenly doing well. All im saying is, that if we want regular international qualification for major tournaments, we need to start at home. Our best players can still move on to better leagues.

Its pretty obvious but i dont think that this is what the majority of posters here want to read.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

For 2002, we took 18 points out of 18 against Cyprus, Andorra and Estonia. We failed to qualify for 2006 [B]because of two draws with Israel, two games which we dominated but missed our chances[/B]. In 2000, it was two dropped points in Macedonia that cost us.

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Israel away we dominated ?, my recollection is we went 1-0 up after about 6 min and done absolutley nothing else until Israel deservedly equalised in the last minute. (It was the minumim they deserved). We then promptly went up the other end and I think Duff hit the post. To compound it Kerr then said we were unluckly :mad: we were a lot of things that night but were werent unlucky.

Agree with the rest of the post.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

The English league itself is a different beast. Add to that the other major leagues in Europe. Im talking about the smaller nations such as ourselves. Surely that much is clear?.....................

Its pretty obvious but i dont think that this is what the majority of posters here want to read.

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I think we can all agree a strong domestic league would certainly not reduce our chances of qualification.

I think our big problem is that all our good young players are farmed across the sea, most get chewed up and spat out within a few years and drop out of the game. We should have some sort of acadmey for talented youngsters that is linked with the eircom league clubs, where their talent can be nurtured and used to benefit Irish football.

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Originally Posted by DotTV

I think our big problem is that all our good young players are farmed across the sea, most get chewed up and spat out within a few years and drop out of the game. We should have some sort of acadmey for talented youngsters that is linked with the eircom league clubs, where their talent can be nurtured and used to benefit Irish football.

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It wont happen as long as the big DDSL clubs run football in this country.

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

It wont happen as long as the big DDSL clubs run football in this country.

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Now you've hit the nail on the head. There is no structure, these clubs (the Belvo's, Stella, Home Farm, Joeys) all should have teams in the A championship and Eircom League. They develop players then whore them across the water. Its disgusting.
I've known kids travelling from Kerry, Cork, Wexford, Offaly all to play for DDSL teams, some of the further ones travelling 3 times a week! How can that be good for what is essentially a child?

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

Israel away we dominated ?, my recollection is we went 1-0 up after about 6 min and done absolutley nothing else until Israel deservedly equalised in the last minute. (It was the minumim they deserved). We then promptly went up the other end and I think Duff hit the post. To compound it Kerr then said we were unluckly :mad: we were a lot of things that night but were werent unlucky.

Agree with the rest of the post.

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My recollection is that we scored, played some great football (possession football actually - something we haven't shown since) but didn't commit players forward, and conceded a poxy goal 5 mins from the end.
You are right though, our next meaningful attack led to a post.
We were the one team Israel didn't give the runaround to in that group.

Both points are good ones.

One good thing Kerr did was spread the selection process of youngsters (playing as underage internationals) across the country. It's continued on a bit, but not enough. As Stojkovic says there are lads travelling long distances three times a week. What we need is more and bigger junior clubs in the provinces.

As far as farming youngsters out to England - it's been a graveyard for Irish talent for many years. Sre some make it but too many don't. I saw too many young lads in Dublin in the eighties who were super technicians with the ball, but were ruined as players because of the speed and high ball game which is English football. And because you don't make it there you're deemed a failure.

Wish our young lads would head to places like France and Holland, Germany etc.

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

Israel away we dominated ?, my recollection is we went 1-0 up after about 6 min and done absolutley nothing else until Israel deservedly equalised in the last minute. (It was the minumim they deserved). We then promptly went up the other end and I think Duff hit the post. To compound it Kerr then said we were unluckly :mad: we were a lot of things that night but were werent unlucky.

Agree with the rest of the post.

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My recollection is we scored early, then played possesion football as if we were playing out the game for the last 80 minutes, I remember a lot of people around me in the crowd saying we were going to be caught out as the game entered the last 20 mins or so, and unfortunately were right. The Israellis were there for the taking that night, but we didnt push forward until they got the equaliser.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

As Stojkovic says there are lads travelling long distances three times a week. What we need is more and bigger junior clubs in the provinces.



Wish our young lads would head to places like France and Holland, Germany etc.

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As i've posted on other threads we need a major reorganisation of football in this country but don't have th e guts to do it.

The EL will never prosper in it's current format simply because we have too many clubs with too small a catchment area. Clubs realistically need probably a million people in their catchment area to develop a strong fan base, certainly no less than half a million.

Filtering the whole way down to junior level we need the likes of Joeys, Belvo, Cherry Orchard to be the minimum standard for clubs.

Clubs should be licensed with a requirement for a minimum of 2 teams at each underage level up to say U15 and then one at each age level till out of schoolboys and a minimum of an U21 and 2 senior teams. Clubs of this size can provide better facilities and generate better fundraising etc.

New clubs shoul have to produce a business plan to show there is a need for a new club in the area.

The FAI should grant aid amalagamtions of smaller clubs to acheive this, and actively promote it.

You wont find many one or two team clubs in GAA or Rugby.

They should also encourage a reduction in Dublin Clubs by way of amalgamation. This of course will be unacceptable to the fans of the clubs, but the reality is the clubs do not have enough fans to survive and the only way to increase the fan base is to be succesful and qualify for the champions league group stages.

Munster Rugby is the perfect role model, No 1 club in Europe, and while the game is only big in Britain and Franc it still is an achievement to be admired.

To have any chance of having any semblence of a competitive domestic league the most important thing I believe we need to do is to merge the leagues both North and South of the Border. With the combined population of over 6 million people and with the increase in the number of relatively large urban areas we should be able to maintain a decent standard of football and a higher average attendance. At present the main obstacle to having a stronger league in the Republic is simple demographics (I'm not just talking about overall numbers the relatively low levels of urbanisation in our population is perhaps our biggest problem).

I'm not campaigning for the International teams to be merged just to make things clear before EG encounters this thread but a stronger domestic league would help both International teams on both sides of the border.

its easy to say, lads should go to france, germany and wherever, but its not a simple case of donkey-tailing on google maps their next destination there has to be links established with the clubs. I said a couple of years ago or so to strengthen the EL why didnt clubs look to establish with some clubs in central and/or south america, for example, where players could play for a year on loan or whatever in the league, it would probably strenghten the league in terms of quality and the players themselves wouldn't have to be paid anymore than their home country(loads more benefits, just examples, plus tapping into extra supporters those from the players originating country whose first sport is soccer, plus irish people are more likely to go watch a south american for example, than they are an irish fella beleive it or not!)), and I say the same again in relation to young players here, clubs should try to establish links with continental clubs and both can benefit, EL clubs could get younger players out on loan for a season or two like united do in belgium etc and could also look to move on their players to the continent if the right price came in for them.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

To have any chance of having any semblence of a competitive domestic league the most thing I believe we need to do is to merge the leagues both North and South of the Border. With the combined population of over 6 million people and with the increase in the number of relatively large urban areas we should be able to maintain a decent standard of football and a higher average attendance. At present the main obstacle to having a stronger league in the Republic is simple demographics (I'm not just talking about overall numbers the relatively low levels of urbanisation in our population is perhaps our biggest problem).

I'm not campaigning for the International teams to be merged just to make things clear before EG encounters this thread but a atronger domestic league would help both International teams on both sides of the border.

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It is blindingly obvious that you are right but things that are blindingly obvious can take a long time in this country north and south.Witness Good friday agreement[sunningdale for slow learners,quote from sheamass mallon]

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Originally Posted by youngirish

To have any chance of having any semblence of a competitive domestic league the most thing I believe we need to do is to merge the leagues both North and South of the Border

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From your point of view (as clearly the stronger league), why merge with the weaker? How much stronger would it make the merged league? Not very, I guess. How stronger would Linfield be? Arguably not at all. They wouldn't be the clear favorite every season. And- unlike other notional moves across leagues, say the Old Firm to England, they wouldn't have the carrot of much greater income from TV.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

With the combined population of over 6 million people and with the increase in the number of relatively large urban areas we should be able to maintain a decent standard of football and a higher average attendance

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You'd be adding one large urban area (500,000+?) for a total of two. It's still only marginal. There are more fundamental reasons why the LoI is weaker than those in similarly sized countries (Croatia, Denmark, Norway?).

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Originally Posted by youngirish

At present the main obstacle to having a stronger league in the Republic is simple demographics (I'm not just talking about overall numbers the relatively low levels of urbanisation in our population is perhaps our biggest problem)

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How does this compare- with the countries above, say? 2 million of 6 million odd people in Ireland live in suburban Dublin and Belfast. Is that so different from 1.5 million of 4 million?

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I'm not campaigning for the International teams to be merged just to make things clear before EG encounters this thread but a atronger domestic league would help both International teams on both sides of the border

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That's a relief :)

Of the IL regulars on here, I think Not Brazil is the biggest fan of an all-Ireland league.

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From your point of view (as clearly the stronger league), why merge with the weaker? How much stronger would it make the merged league? Not very, I guess. How stronger would Linfield be? Arguably not at all. They wouldn't be the clear favorite every season. And- unlike other notional moves across leagues, say the Old Firm to England, they wouldn't have the carrot of much greater income from TV.

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If the old firm were transfered to the the championship or first division in england they would create quite a stir.On a smaller scale if linfield and glentoran merged with the bigger clubs in the south it would create an attractive product for fans and tv companies.All clubs would have to improve.By meeting this challenge standards would be forced upwards

In answer to your questions Gather_round.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You'd be adding one large urban area (500,000+?) for a total of two. It's still only marginal. There are more fundamental reasons why the LoI is weaker than those in similarly sized countries (Croatia, Denmark, Norway?).

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Yes I agree with you that Ireland as a whole has really only three cities of any reasonable size (I'd throw in the Cork urban area also) but it doesn't take a city of over 500 thousand people to support a football team. Both NI and the Republic have a similar number of towns of over 25 thousand people (about 11 or 12 each by my count) which should be enough to support a club in an all Ireland league. Obvously bigger towns and cities can support more than one team so we could eventually end up having a large number of competitve teams spread around on both sides of the border. I agree that demographics is not the only probelm but to provide the financial support teams require to be competitve you need a decent sized urban area with a sizeable fan base. Rural areas cannot support large football clubs that are going to be competitive in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

How does this compare- with the countries above, say? 2 million of 6 million odd people in Ireland live in suburban Dublin and Belfast. Is that so different from 1.5 million of 4 million?

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The number of decent sized towns or cities is more important as mentioned above and this could be effectively doubled by any such merger.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

From your point of view (as clearly the stronger league), why merge with the weaker? How much stronger would it make the merged league? Not very, I guess. How stronger would Linfield be? Arguably not at all. They wouldn't be the clear favorite every season. And- unlike other notional moves across leagues, say the Old Firm to England, they wouldn't have the carrot of much greater income from TV.

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Initially Linfield may not be much stronger but surely a more competitive league that's better supported would in the long run ensure the bigger clubs like Linfield would reap the benefits over time. Other than the number of titles in the record books I don't see how being the dominant force every year in a league can be beneficial to any team.

As for TV money then I'd say it's a safe guess that all the clubs involved in such a merger would receive more income from TV coverage due to the extra interest any such merger would generate. Attendences I'm sure would also initally rise. It would be up to the clubs and the associations to ensure that this initial interest would be built upon.

Anyway as I said this is not the only problem and it is possible to have two separate leagues competing at a better level than currently is the case. Unfortunately I do believe the demographics in Ireland are a major obstacle.

Anyway it's all pie in the sky stuff at present though but who knows what may happen in the future with the Setanta cup now being a reality anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

If the old firm were transfered to the the championship or first division in england they would create quite a stir.On a smaller scale if linfield and glentoran merged with the bigger clubs in the south it would create an attractive product for fans and tv companies.All clubs would have to improve.By meeting this challenge standards would be forced upwards

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i have to say i agree with Gather Round more so than this point. If the leagues merged I think that, while attendances might rise temprorarily, after that i think we are really kidding ourselves into giving far too much credit to the armchair fan who only occasionally will drag himself off his arse for an international in Croker. There are also those who totally dismiss the Eircom League, deny its existence even, in favour of the more commercial and satisfying support of a premiership team. These are people who will never follow a local team unless success (in terms of Europe) is guaranteed.

It boils down to the Govt., the FAI and the clubs (league and junior) coming together and setting out a plan for the future in terms of all aspects of the league - from financing and grants to how the clubs are run. The sports minister should also be involved heavily and the Govt. should examine all available opportunities to help the countries football clubs.

At the moment, the FAI is doing a bit (credit where its due) but the clubs are really left to their own devices in a lot of respects. Its just not working, attendances are not increasing in any significant way, in a lot of cases they have decreased.

One thing is for certain, and i mean no offence here, because of the nature of the average Irish football fan (lazy and uninterested), the league wont thrive until it is already self sustainable and relatively successful.

Once the league is successful, it becomes a cycle and the offshoots of this success will be bigger pool of players, bigger pool of better players, the best players having more options on where to play, better performances by the national team and regular qualification for the international team.

Its pretty exciting if it can be pulled off.

The Eircom League could never get enough interest unless a multi billionaire came in and gave clubs a lot of money to bring in players from like Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Africa.

Even still, sometimes I'm convinced people wouldn't go watch an EL game even if Zidane and Maradona were on the damn pitch.