Ssshhh - don't tell the Derry boys!
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Ssshhh - don't tell the Derry boys!
Ludicrous comment, the point was that Forde looked like one of the best keepers in the league at Derry. To suggest otherwise if brainless. I still wouldn't have had him near the international squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
The thing is though, he didn't look like one of the best. Terrible at crosses and high balls, prone to flapping about. There were several goalkeepers better than him at the time he was here, and there remains several better than him now.
Westwood's record for the season added to irish abroad: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroa...playerID=37039
He was ever present for Carlisle this season: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroa...ery?teamID=643
:rolleyes: Won the award as Keeper of the year in 2006. Who were these several goalkeppers beter then him back then? Football's all about opinions but can't agree with you on that. Most keepers are prone to errors and this is even more prevelant in the EL. Brain Murphy had a number of them playing for Swansea and is probably the best keeper in the EL now. Ashley Bayes was able to win a title ffs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torn-Ado
Bosco Izecson Pereira Leite - Kaka's Dads Name - Hardly German?
But i dont believe hes catholic, heard somewhere before he wasnt..
From RTE
I'm confident that Trap knows what he's doing and he wont shy away from picking Eircom players if they show theyre good enough.Quote:
There was still time for Vitinha to force a solid save from Westwood, a 62nd-minute replacement for Joe Murphy, after Damien Delaney's slip had put the midfielder in on goal.
Trapattoni later defended his decision to call up the Carlisle keeper in the wake of criticism from Bohemians counterpart Brian Murphy that he should have looked closer to home.
The Italian said: 'I did not know him (Westwood), but our scouts told me he played in the (English League One play-off) semi-final against Leeds and played two or three important games. We are looking at the young players. We have to look at all the possibilities.
Well, Kieron Westwood has succeeded in making a career in League One. Brian Murphy did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky77
Drumcondra 69er says it better than me really........I don't want to cause offence but I really think you guys overestimate how good your league is. It's nowhere near Championship standard, as some think.
Westwood isn't Irish, Murphy is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymro
The Championship is a better standard than the Premier Division in the LOI - I think the majority of LOI supporters would acknowlege this. But that's irrelevant as Carlisle United isn't a Championship club or a Championship standard club.
Westwood got the "call-up" because he can potentially play international football for another country.
oh come on, what are the realistic chances of Westwood getting an England call up in the next few years? There are good English keepers coming through the ranks and James' place in the side is pretty comfortable after another good season.
Westwood is unlikely to feature in September he was just called up at short notice so they could explore other goalkeeping possibilities.
So he's no good then?Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
How convenient. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Due to criticism i recieved for not bothering about the EL i've watched a load of games recently and must say i've been surprised. It is around championship level, probably the bottom half of the championship would be suitable to accomodate the best 3 or 4 sides in the el. the rest would be league one although possible one or two would struggle at that level. the championship in england however, is a shocking league; demonstrated by the massive struggle any side getting out of it has in avoiding immediate demotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymro
It's not tounge in cheek at all. ffs the majority of ordinary people in Britain think that the troubles was solely a sectarian war between catholic's and protestantsQuote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
they just seem to equate catholic with Irish as though the 2 are mutually exclusive
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
So if Westwood is not Irish he is probably English then or do you mean he is Irish but wasn't born in Ireland like Murphy making him less Irish of course? Just a bit confused as to why an English man was called up to play for us thats all.:confused:
Non Irish Irish Italians Non League of Ireland playing Irish have been playing for us for years. Whats the problem?
John Aldridge is as Liverpool as they come and Houghton is Scotish through and through. 9 out of 10 ex Irish internationals live in England. They speak english and probably read english papers.
How many of the WC90 Squad could claim to have been born in Ireland, played LOI football ?
Always thought Vinny Jones was hard done by to be honest with some of the lads we took in.
I suppose in all honesty, If were depending on Westwood or Murphy to qualify for any major tournament were in trouble. Were not blessed with talent on tap and if we uncover a gem, welcome aboard. Thats the crux of the matter.
It's quite simple to understand. He said the following words "I'm not Irish" in that combination. Does that confuse you?Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeag
One of the most ill informed posts I've ever read. Like it or not for a lot of people of Irish descent living in England then being sent to Catholic / Irish schools over in England defined what was different about them to other kids over there. Most of the lads I travel to away trips with are born in Birmingham or London, the phrase 'a good catholic boy' is totally tounge in cheek and is one I've regulalry heard used by second generation Irish in a jokey manner. It's exactly the sort of thing the likes of Dermot O'Leary (who's big on his Irish heritage) would say for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
And the last line of your post actually makes no sense at all, I assume you meant the opposite as 'mutually exclusive' means 'unable to be true at the same time' which clearly being Irish and Cathloic isn't. Did you mean as though the 2 are one and the same?
The fact that you left the 'as such' out of you're I'm not Irish (as such)' quote completly changes the context. Cr@p argument. My opinion is that he meant he wasn't born over here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
He's hardly the first and won't be the last player to be like this, can't believe why people are up in arms about this, if we cap him and he turns out to be a top keeper then happy days, if he doesn't he doesn't make the squads. What's the big deal?
A basic requirement for anyone playing for us is that they consider themselves Irish. I don't care if they are second, third or whatever generation Irish as long as they identify themselves as Irish. He said he's not Irish so your cr@p argument that he might turn out to be a top goalkeeper doesn't cut it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
any reasonable reading of what he said would see that he meant he was not born in Ireland.
please, IFK, pick something else to get all worked up over.
Anyone proficient in the English language read what he meant, i.e. he doesn't consider himself Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
So please, SkStu, be respectful of others having an opinion that differs from yours.
i dont think i was being disrespectful :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
i just think your reading of his comments are wrong. You even misquoted him in your posts so far. His full statement in context makes far more sense and sounds far better than your selective quoting.
“I’m not Irish as such, but I’m a Catholic boy and it’s in my blood through my dad’s mum".
I going to have to go back to school as my reading of that is; he doesn't identify himself as Irish, but he's Catholic and his Dad's mum is/was Irish so he can play for us.
If I wanted to say I wasn't born in Ireland I'd use the phrase "I wasn't born in Ireland (as such) ;)" but that's just me.
Anyways I've said my piece now and let my feelings known. So this is my last post on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
You are reading way too much into this. Do you think many of the English born players who have represented us down through the years have stood up and said they were actually Irish apart from the obvious, Kilbane, Breen, McCarthy. I bet the likes of Morrison, Lawrensen, Holland, etc though themselves as English men playing for Ireland. Most of them would have played for England if given the chance. I bet this did not stop you from cheering them on when they were sweating their arses off for the cause. At least this chap declared at a young age and did not have to be asked to do so. That’s good enough for me and I will support him 100%.
I'd agree wholehearted with your posts on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
The 'most ill informed post' accusation is not one to be thrown around lightly. This type of "Irishness" thread always throws up a few candidates, sometimes justifying the absence of rationality in a creative interpretation with a 'Im just expressing my feelings' excuse.
.
To be honest, if he wants to play and is good enough then i dont see the problem, however if its a stop gap and hes just taking the mick, then he can fcuk off. A problem i have is Irish people who ill wish on England and the English National team, yet when the weekend comes they wear their Liverpool, United and Arsenal tops and refer to these Teams as "We" and "Us". Thats a pain in the arse, these are also the people who wont go to Eircom league games, and will sneer about their local EL clubs. (In case i hurt anyones feelings, i knoe not all people who follow English football turn their noses up at the EL, but there is quite a lot who do..)
Talk about a sly silly little dig.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The issue isn't about second or third generation Irish playing for Ireland. I've already said I wholeheartily welcome them. It's about whether these players are "committed to the cause". Kieron Westwood said he'd "consider" playing for the Republic. That's all well and good but I personally wouldn't need to consider about playing for Ireland.
Nobody here had mentioned the name of Kieron Westwood before he appeared on your TV screens last week. He makes a few saves for Carlisle United and all of sudden we get the usual lyrics posted about a lower league player in England that should get a "call-up".
Brian Murphy hit the nail on the head with his comments. What Westwood's call-up says is if you want to play for Ireland, go across the water and make a few saves in front of the Sky Sports cameras. If somebody posted a thread in the Ireland section of foot.ie about an LOI player deserving of a "call-up" that thread would be threated with disdain by the vast majority of posters. However if somebody else comes along and states there's a player making strides at Torquay United it's a whole different story. Like Flawless said in his post there're hoardes of so called "Irish football fans" puked up across the country telling everyone in earshot how they are "Man U til I die" or I'm "Liverpool til I die". These are the same people that go out of there way to sheer at the English national side and at players who play at the same clubs at which their "hearts" lie. There're all "football fans" that pay countless sums of money buying trips to the UK but wouldn't dream of watching the football that's played on their doorsteps.
Sometimes you have to take the long-sighted prespective rather than the shortsighted and the case of Kieron Westwood is a perfect example. It sends (another) signal that LOI players will constantly be overlooked in favour of players that highlight their availibilty after they realise they'll never get to play for their nation of choice. It's another kick in the teeth for the development of domestic soccer and like it our lump it we need a strong domestic league if we consistently want to qualify for major tournaments and we wouldn't need these continuous whinging threads about journeymen not getting their games with their respective British clubs as we'd be in a position to pick players playing regularly in the LOI.
It was stated in the LOI section of this forum that Norway has picked an international squad containing 16/18 players from Norwegian clubs. What's wrong in encouraging the development of our own league so that we can be in a position to do this as well. Yes it might "just be a training camp" for the most of you but it's still a training camp for the national team and a strong source of recognition for any previously uncapped player. A lot people take a great source of pride in their inclusion in such training camps. And rightly so. That's the "type of Irishness" I want.
Yep :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
had a feeling I was using the wrong term. Still think their are plenty of British that would fit into my description though, jesus knows I've met enough of them down the years
Oh yeah, the "as such" makes all the difference!Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
"As such" in that sentence means as much as "obviously", "in fairness", "to be fair" or any of the other meaningless sentence fillers that footballers use.
Expertly put. The most concise reading of the situation so farQuote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I shouldn't have used the word creative, it's more a subjective drivel based on unimaginative cynical interpretation over a few words from a player, which in the opinion of others, have more obvious meanings.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
The whole Catholic boy thing was a tongue in cheek comment in fairness to him.
I don't know what to make of this. I think myself that when a player has a choice of playing for two countries they will almost always play for the best team that they will be able to get selected for, like alot of the African players who have played for France in the past. On the one hand I would nearly say fair play for admitting it that he is not Irish(or fully Irish.......) and on the other hand I would prefer to have people who would always see Ireland as their one and only national team playing for us. He is as qualified as many of the guys who have played for us down the years, he has just put his foot in it with that comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
While my previous posts on this indiacte that it is no more than a holiday camp, I do accept your comments and others, that it should be a great source of pride for anyone to be called up, and maybe a number of EL players should have been called up, like a number of U21s were.
Maybe I'm wrong in assuming that EL managers would not be happy to lose 1 or 2 of their best players for 2 weeks and possibly 3 matches for this.
With our away game scheduled for next June against Bulgaria, maybe Trap will organise another week away and if arranged earlier enough a break in the EL season could be planned now to facilitate the calling up of say 4 players for the training camp.
great post ifk. I have to agree - my original disagreement was on your attacking of what he said, which i think is innoccuos enough in the greater context. Compare to Clinton "come and get me Sven" Morrison and you can see where im coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
On ability, however, i totally agree that there are far superior candidates out there and i fully agree with the overall jist of your post.
Ive been posting a lot of what you said on here (the bolded bits) for a while concerning the success of the domestic league and its relevance to the success of the national team.
Maith an fear.
Now we have judgements made, about a 2 or 3 generation player based on an innocuous quote, to determine his level of commitment to the cause.
Save us from this insanity.
How does the commitment scoring system work?
I guess Dean Kiely is okay, he is safe. Even if he is a shadow of his former greatness. When or how did he pass the goalkeeper Irish commitment test? Was it before or after he played for England?
Or is it now that we just assume he is Irish because he is Irish.
Agree 100%, best response in this thread..Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
There are some very valid and noble points in ifk101s post though some of them are some way beyond the subject here. Also none of them lessen by a jot Westwoods eligibility to represent us ...not if he considers himself Irish, not if he doesn't, not if hates the Irish, thinks they're redheaded freckly inbred tinker tarmaccers who deserve all the mick-slapping that can be heaped on them.
With that as the bottom line -it simply becomes a question of those in charge managing and exploiting the pool of players available to Ireland to our greatest advantage. If that's the situation then there's a case to be made that a goalkeeper who it is highly likely will be playing at a higher level next season* should be encouraged and welcomed into the fold. The Irish born and Irish based keepers will be no less eligible thereafter. They are disadvantaged for sure but that's the situation they find themselves in.
*If Leeds United are promoted on Sunday I wouldn't be surprised if Westwood was top of McAllisters shopping list. He's the only player I've seen in that division that I would think could displace Casper Ankergren. Even if they don't come in for him I think it's been said on here that the Carlisle supporters broadly reckon he'll be off soon.
I'd be inclined to disagree with your last comment. Your claim that teams getting promoted find it very hard to stay up for one year is debateable to say the least. In every season since 2000 at least one promoted club has stayed up, and possibly this trend stretches further into the past; I didn't bother to look at every season, feeling those facts alone are enough to disprove your claim. In any case, the league those clubs are being promoted into is the wealthiest and very arguably best in the world, so to go down from it is no disgrace, and very few promoted clubs do as badly as Derby did this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
The Championship is not a shocking league. For as long as I can remember, it has been amongst the top 10 European leagues for average attendance, and the highest of any European second tier; it is a competitive league from top to bottom and practically every side in it has multiple full senior internationals.
I don't personally think any Irish side could survive at Championship level for longer than a season or two; even Colchester have higher gates than the top side in Ireland, and they are widely regarded as being one of the most 'punch above your weight' clubs at Championship level for a long time. Furthermore, although a handful of Irish league players have made it in the Championship, many who have tried have not succeeded. These are top players in Ireland. I think that if the leagues were genuinely comparable you would not have this sort of failure rate.
Disagree with me if you want to on that, but it's my honest opinion.
how can you comment on a league that (i presume) you have never seen? Not necessarily saying i agree with the original poster but i just wonder how you intend to validate your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymro
Attendances is not a valid argument against the quality of some of the footie on show in Ireland. Similarly, the championship being in the top ten leagues in Europe for attendance does not make it one of the ten best leagues in Europe. By a long long shot.
For the record - in my opinion, there are some exceptionally good players and a handful of good teams in the leagues here that would yo-yo between Championship and first. Naturally, there are others that would be in the Conference or lower.
I have seen quite a few games involving Irish sides, actually, particularly recently as I have started to take an interest in it (as well as reading/posting on here). It's not particularly difficult to get access to live matches and highlights clips if you are genuinely interested. Matches are broadcast on Setanta and occasionally on the internet, neither of which require me to do much more than minimal work to access.
Now obviously I wouldn't claim to be an authority on the league. However, having watched hundreds of Football League games I most certainly know about the English league and it was that comment about the Championship being shocking I was taking issue with. My views on Irish football were simply an opinion and I was clear on that, unlike livehead, who stated his opinion as though it were fact.
As for my argument, attendances and ticket prices (basically, matchday income) are linked to football quality. Certainly, it's not the be-all and end-all, but generally, the more money you draw in on a Saturday afternoon, the better your team is likely to be, especially in the modern era where it's not particularly difficult to sign players from foreign countries, even for clubs lower down the Football League ladder. From what I understand, the Irish leagues (north and south) are roughly comparable with the English League Two/Conference in this area. I'm not necessarily suggesting this automatically disqualifies any Irish side from having a Championship-standard team ever, but it would probably take considerable investment to reach that standard, as at present, all the best players over in Ireland are getting cherry-picked by Championship and SPL clubs.