She already tried to take down the whole party, that was the whole point of holding out so long...
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She already tried to take down the whole party, that was the whole point of holding out so long...
we can all guess whats going to happen but it would be remarkable if america voted for a black person to be president.I certainly hope that they do especially if he has more inclusive policies than bush.I wonder if it makes a difference that he is a lighter shade of black than most black people[I am being serious here]Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
It is also very important that people do not follow this politician blindly[like people did with tony blair[liar] see how that turned out.His policies must be scrutinised and some pressure enforced that he sticks broadly to them if he is elected
Well she's said she's not going to demand the Vice Presidency so she could have done a lot worse, that said I wouldn't be surprised if she does an about turn and urges her voters not to vote for Obama unless she is made VPQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
It wouldn't be the first time she did an about-turn, by any stretch of the imagination. She's a thundering cow and no mistake; America's very lucky her campaign lost steam half way through.
Can you imaginer her as president? She'd be worse than Bush for god's sake; at least you know damn well which way Bush is going to go!
adam
I agree she would be worse than Bush, I personally think she has ran a more underhanded campaign than Bush or even Nixon ever did, and that had she recieved the nod from the Democrats she would have sunk to new levels to bring down McCain (for the record I'd pick McCain over Hilary as well). It's been one of the more enjoyable political events I've ever witnessed watching her have the rug swept out from underneath by Obama. The fact that she didn't have her campaign budgeted for beyond Super Tuesday (Feb 5th) shows the absolute arrogance that her family has in relation to US politics. Glad to see the back of the pair of them to be honest
yes, youre right but he will not be looking to take many votes off the Republicans anyway, he will just be looking to motivate all Democrats to come out and vote in big numbers which he has proven he is capable of doing. He and Hilary have broken numerous records for primary/caucus voter turnout and he is streets ahead of ALL rivals in the big issue of fund raising *spits* and using the internet to rally people to donate and vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I think in general though, America wants a change of direction. They want to be respected again, like they have been in the past and i think to most observers there, Obame represents the best prospect for acceptance of cultural diversity, change, discussion and possibly even peace.
You're not serious are you? Whilst her campaign was somewhat "underhanded" it fell WAY short of the swiftboating involved in the Bush campaign. Hillary, while snide, doesn't even come close to Republicans in the arena of dirty politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
To pick McCain over Clinton is sheer and utter foolishness....and needs no counter argument really.
And to counter what adam said with regards to Hillary "running out of steam halfway through" the campaign. The opposite infact happened...she BUILT UP a head of steam in the second half as she closed out really strongly. But thankfully Obama had already done the damage delegate wise.
I'm deadly serious. The Republicans for all their over-the-top villianry are at least straight with you in their method of politics. They're hyper-conservative and they will attack you without mercy if you have skeletons in the closet. Hilary on the other hand released bits and pieces to the press from 'unnamed sources' in her camp attacking Obama for his former drug use and his Muslim father. Of course she rolled a few non-descript heads after the slurs were printed, but make no mistake that it wasn't her who put them out there. Couple that with refusal to back out when it was obvious she wouldn't win (couple it even with that walking human travesty Mitt Romney), her early indications that she would insist on becoming Vice President (I assume the Party had a word), and her switch to good ol' Southern Gal as opposed to the Black Man and you can see why I think she's scum.
As per your point that it's ridiculous to suggest McCain over Hilary, well let me ask you this. If you didn't have a clue who Hilary was and I laid out her speeches and her political record ('I'll obliterate Iran' at the front of the queue) and I told you she was Republican would you doubt me? I don't think so to be truthful
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-j...i_b_30654.html Scroll to the lower part of that and see the hatchet job the Bush campaign done "indirectly" to McCain in 2000 - Hillary is an amateur. And Obama better toughen up, coz he's about to come up against a campaign the likes of which he'll unlikely ever come up against again.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Apart from foreign policy stances what else would you put on that list? Now bear in mind that her policies and Obamas are almost identical...the only substantive difference being diplomacy with foreign countries. Infact their policies were so similar that many seen that as the reason it got so personal, neither camp barely mentioned policies for the last couple of months, even the debates weren't really debates. So by your way of thinking we could also say that Obama is Republican?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Clinton is a career politician. I think it is very naive not to think politicans do what they can to win. She was never going to give up easily. Obama got ahead so as the trailing candidate she had to attack. Obama would do it if he would win that way. Same with McCain. They are all the same just slightly different shades of grey. McCain has made a career campaigning against lobbying but then realised he had lots of them in his senior staff.
Obama is the favourite as has a massive organisation behind him. McCain nearly went broke early in the republican campaign until he got a few wins. He is running on a shoestring.
On Clinton vs Obama:
She talks a good game with tax reforms (as do all decent politicians) but she never signed for Americans for Tax Reforms pledge, despite stating that she wouldn't raise any existing taxes and would cut the advantages of the wealthy. Makes me think it was all words from her, much like the Republicans, bar McCain, who has supported it and said he will introduce it if President, much to anger of his party. Obama wants to introduce a restructured model of Roosevelt's New Deal bill, to help the disadvantaged in America, he has stated that's his number one priority.
She says she's in favour of worker rights re: health plans etc. and yet when she was on the board of WalMart she did **** all to try to help it's employees, again it sounds like a token gesture to say she's in favour of the working man. Obama worked in Chicago with disadvantaged people while she was doing this (as per his Memorys Of My Father book. Obama has also promised to introduce the Employee Free Choice Act
On the illegal immigrant position in America she seems liberal until you read through some of her speeches where you find she is actually just saying whatever needs to be said to the people she is talking to. She supported a bill to give drivers licences to illegal immigrants with one crowd, but a few weeks later she said she didn't when there was a backlash against said bill. Makes me think she doesn't actually have any clear opinions on these issues. Fair enough though in that she does support giving Visas to 'aliens' that have been in the States a certain number of years.. Obama however wants to lay down a plan for illegal immigrants to gain citzenship, and has stuck with his belief that they should be given driver's licences as a way to help them, despite the criticism
She flip flopped on her earlier support of imposing sanctions on gun owners when she announced she'd run for President, instead she said she'd fight for the right to have firearms :rolleyes: Obama thinks it should be regulated, but that there should be a ban on people carrying concealed weapons
She's pro-choice, fair enough, so is he
She supports the death penalty (book called Hilary's Choice, that Hilary has backed states that), he thinks it should only be used in extreme cases
She apparantly thinks video games are attacking society's core models :rolleyes:, Obama thinks it is ultimately the parent who needs to control what is viewed, ate and done in their house
It's clear to me that while Clinton talks whatever game she feels necessary to win votes, Barack has firmly set liberal ideals, and doesn't flip flop on them even when it could cost him votes. That's why I'd be more trusting of his liberal credits than Hilary's.
Oh and you can't just say, forget about foreign policy when comparing her and Obama, and this is where the difference between the two is really shown. Obama supports dialogue between America and hostile states as a means of easing America back into world affairs, Clinton believes that Palestines and Iranians should live in fear of America. Obama moved to say to Israelis that he had no plans to abandon them, but that dialogues does need to be opened with Iran (he doesn't support talking to Hamas I know), marked difference from Hilary's 'I'll obliterate them!' speech. Obama supports easing restrictions on Cuba, Hilary doesn't. And then of course there's Iraq....
Plus the main area that marks Hilary as being more Republican than Obama is that she is in the pocket of her moneymen (people she had to go back to time and time again, and presumably promise more and more favours to), where as Obama's 'organization' as you call it is mostly made up of people like you and me giving whatever money they can. Huge difference in terms of what they would be allowed do in office in relation to things like carbon cutting arrising from that
Neither Obama or Clinton are left wing. I don't think a liberal can get elected as President. Will watch with interest to see if Obama has to shift a few beliefs to get elected. saw he was at the Israel Support Organisation touting their votes last week.
He's by far the most liberal candidate in my lifetime. Being liberal and left wing aren't neccesairly the same thing. However...Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
... this bit is true. Of course he needs support of American Jews.Quote:
Will watch with interest to see if Obama has to shift a few beliefs to get elected. saw he was at the Israel Support Organisation touting their votes last week.
I'd rather he did keep touting for the Israeli vote to be honest, I'd rather have a guy willing to talk to Palestine (not Hamas) and Israel then some left wing nut harping on about Palestine having more rights than Israel. Obama's liberal, just not the hysterical left winger the hysterical left wing wanted him to beQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
While saying he will talk to Hamas & also saying he is a friend of Israel isn't a u-turn I think gives an indication of the way he will be flexible on certain topics.
agreed with Jebus and your first line Dodge. In my opinion, Hilary is as right wing as the Democrats get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The difference, on the major issues, between Clinton and Obama is staggering.
Something interesting i heard last night on CNN is that the common perception that Hilary carried the womans vote is a bit of a myth. Surprisingly (to me anyway) Obama outscored her in all demographics (by 10-15 points!) except the one for women over 50 in which she gained a substantial lead over him.
Obama speaks to and motivates young america and that is a good thing for him and pretty bad news for McCain.