The Maze

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Originally Posted by Krstic

I noticed EalingGreen mention the abuse Pat Jennings got whilst playing for NI in another thread.
Why was he abused, do Northern Ireland fans not like Spurs or Arsenal as well as the above mentioned???

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Personally never recall big Pat getting abuse, recall his name being sung on the Kop. He is one of my favourite all time Northern Ireland players.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.
But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.

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Here you go.

http://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports...harvie95-7.htm

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A survey carried out in 1991 showed that when asked to place the 5 national sides from the British Isles in order of preference, 91 % of Catholic respondents placed the Republic of Ireland and 88% of Protestant respondents placed Northern Ireland first. 79% of Catholic respondents against 35% of Protestant respondents supported an all-Irish team. 76% of Catholic respondents claimed to have had more satisfaction from the achievements of the Republic in the 1990 World Cup compared to Northern Ireland’s success in 1982, while 69% of Protestants stated that they had taken more satisfaction from the latter (12).However the same evidence suggests that the polarisation of attitudes is by no means complete. 20% of Protestant respondents selected the Republic and 54% of Catholic respondents chose Northern Ireland as second preferences amongst the five ‘nations’. 23% of Protestants and 18% of Catholics included in the survey claimed to have obtained equal satisfaction from the achievements of the Republic of Ireland in the 1990 World Cup and Northern Ireland eight years earlier. This suggests that when no zero-sum choice has to be made fairly sizeable elements in both communities may not be averse to cheering on either Ireland especially on a world stage. Having said this, when the two Irish soccer nations are placed in direct, head-to-head confrontation with one another, as has happened frequently over recent years, the loyalties of supporters are more closely determined than ever by their community background and political affiliations.

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Originally Posted by lofty9

Here you go.

http://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports...harvie95-7.htm

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Thanks, Lofty. It might be in there somewhere, or it may be a different Report, but I was referring specifically to a survey of the religious make up of fans who actually attended NI internationals at Windsor Park. I'm sure the figure was 8%.

P.S. I recall from having read this Report previously, that there a number of (worrying) inaccuracies contained in it. I note from briefly scanning it this time, for instance, that they repeat the Canard that Windsor Park (opened in 1905) was named after the British Royal Family (changed their name to Windsor in 1917).

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Originally Posted by David

Personally never recall big Pat getting abuse, recall his name being sung on the Kop. He is one of my favourite all time Northern Ireland players.

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Never heard it myself, either, though I didn't often stand on the Kop in the early days (i.e. before he attained legend status).

Incidentally, I recently came across an interview with PJ where he reminisced about how much he enjoyed it when their father used to take him and his older brother Brian (ex-IL player) as kids to Windsor to watch NI* play

* - I imagine they were commonly called "Ireland" by the fans in those days

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.

But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.

Of course, although that means over 1,000 at every game, I accept that is still a very small percentage. However, the Report was from several years ago, when comditions were so much worse, both in football in particular, and in NI generally.

Now that there has been so much improvements (football and NI), there is lots of evidence of a return to the situation of earlier, pre-Troubles days, when the situation was much different. There is real demand for match tickets currently, which is being frustrated by capacity limitations at Windsor.
I have little doubt that at least some of that demand is coming from RC/Nats, so that if we did have a modern stadium, in the optimum location, that the latent, residual goodwill from that community of former days could be revitalised.

It is there today to an extent, it was there even during the bad old days of the 1980's, when at least our team was giving everyone something to cheer about and it was certainly there before The Troubles were even heard about.

On which last point, I recently came across a piece by NI Legend Bertie Peacock, who was also a star for Celtic at the time, and not one jot less popular in NI for it. Speaking of sectarianism etc in football at the time of the Lennon incident, his simple comment was:
''It certainly didn't go on in my day, I can tell you that.''

I live for the day when people from NI will decline to support the NI team for no other reason than that we're rubbish. It was the case before now, it can be the case in future.

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Good post. Obviously having never attended a NI game I'd have less of an insight that yourself.

I reckon it would be interesting to find out about an East-West split in Catholic/Nationalist attitudes to the NI team. From my own experience, Catholics from around the Belfast suburbs are alot more open-minded when it comes to supporting NI, but in Derry I only know of one Catholic who would say that they supported NI.

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Originally Posted by David

Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

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I stood on the Kop at Windsor and went to enough away games during enough NI games to hear it for myself and heard the sectarian bile given to NI players.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

I stood on the Kop at Windsor and went to enough away games during enough NI games to hear it for myself and heard the sectarian bile given to NI players.

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

:rolleyes:

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Insightful as usual.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

:rolleyes:

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Any particular piece of my comment that you wish to take issue with or have you just nothing worthwhile to add to the discussion....

I know many Northern Ireland fans who come from a nationalist background but continue to support Northern Ireland.

Northern Catholics only changed their team when ROI appointed a British manager, Jack Charlton. Oh the irony......................!!! :D

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Originally Posted by BleusAvantTout

I know many Northern Ireland fans who come from a nationalist background but continue to support Northern Ireland.

Northern Catholics only changed their team when ROI appointed a British manager, Jack Charlton. Oh the irony......................!!! :D

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Bullsh1t.

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Originally Posted by pól-dcfc

No, the reason Catholic fans won't support N Ireland is because we don't see it as at all representative of us. And it never will be. The majority of Catholics are Nationalists, and Nationalists don't believe that there should be a state called Norther Ireland. We identify with the Republic, which is turning out to be a All-Ireland team anyway.

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If you wish to give witness to your religious beliefs, would Church/Chapel not be a better place to do that than a football ground?:confused:

What has your particular religious beliefs got to do with the discussion anyway?:confused:

Now, allow me to be Devils Advocate, if Nationalists don't believe there should be a state called Northern Ireland, why should those who do support the Northern Ireland team pander in any way to those who seek the destruction of our state and football team?

I do, however, think your comments are revealingly honest.

This notion that passionate supporters of the Republic Of Ireland team, born and bred in Northern Ireland, are somehow going to be convinced to change allegiance is bull****.

Either that, or they're not very passionate in their support for the Republic Of Ireland side - and, it's all pretentious.;)

Back on topic:

These Maze proposals...

Going, going.......:cool:

Only in Northern Ireland would you have people celebrating one less decent stadium.

The best site in the city as far as i can tell is Musgrave Park. It is owned by the city council at an existing off slip on the M1, there is ample parking nearby at the kings hall and the shops on the boucher road, and Balmoral station is a matter of yards away. The park is used for very little at the minute and enjoys easy access to West, South and East Belfast, as well as Lisburn and the south via the M1, and the north via the M2.

A 25,000 seater stadium there, perhaps similer to Pride Park in Derby (which was built for only £28m stg in 18months), would be ideal for Belfast if it is to be for Rugby & Soccer alone.

If GAA is to be involved i see no reason why temporary removable seats can't be incorporated into the design which could be removed for GAA/Athletics. Naturally this would reduce the capacity rather than increase it for the GAA, but given the access and parking problems at Casement Park GAA fans would be no worse off. Failing that there would be plenty of cash left over compared to the maze proposals to tunnel under the M1 and allow the parking for the new stadium to be used to give people access to a redeveloped Casement Park only yards away on the other side of the motorway via Owenvaragh Park or Mooreland Drive

The Maze is out but the newest proposal is the Danny Blanchflower stadium a 20,000 seater to be built in East Belfast for Rugby and Soccer...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/nort...nd/7963513.stm

Ulster Rugby have said that they aren't interested and the GAA are going to press ahead with a major upgrade of Casement park, this whole thing just seems to be going round in circles!

Fair play to the GAA for getting their plans out so quick.

One has to wonder why they needed a new stadium when they seem happy enough to splash money on upgrading Casement.

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Originally Posted by awec

Fair play to the GAA for getting their plans out so quick.

One has to wonder why they needed a new stadium when they seem happy enough to splash money on upgrading Casement.

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Dont let that crowd anywhere near any new stadium. The size of pitch for gaah requirements aren't worth it. they make the pitch much further away for Football and Rugby matches - besides, theyre absolutely loaded themselves...

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Originally Posted by Buller

Dont let that crowd anywhere near any new stadium. The size of pitch for gaah requirements aren't worth it. they make the pitch much further away for Football and Rugby matches - besides, theyre absolutely loaded themselves...

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That's been my argument all along. It's not feasible to make a stadium that is perfect for football and perfect for GAA. Their pitch is a LOT bigger and the fact our fans are so close to the pitch etc is one reason why NI play so well at home. Removing that factor would have implications.

I'm sure you are all well aware of that however, what with you having to play at Croke Park.

Not to mention the GAA will need a stadium much bigger than what we need.

The problem is, even if we express genuine concerns about excluding the GAA (and if I had my way I'd exclude rugby as well) we get labelled as bigots. We can't win. We either accept a stadium that doesn't best suit or needs and wants, or we get labelled as bigots.

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Originally Posted by awec

Their pitch is a LOT bigger and the fact our fans are so close to the pitch etc is one reason why NI play so well at home. Removing that factor would have implications.

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A couple of points that always have always shown that to be a nonsense arguement. The current distance from the front of the South Stand of Windsor would be at least the same in a multi purpose stadium. The West Stand is also set back from the pitch too.

If you were to take your measurements of Windsor from the front of the Railway Stand and utilise the terracing in front of it to the West Stand, you could actually fit in a GAA pitch.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

A couple of points that always have always shown that to be a nonsense arguement. The current distance from the front of the South Stand of Windsor would be at least the same in a multi purpose stadium. The West Stand is also set back from the pitch too.

If you were to take your measurements of Windsor from the front of the Railway Stand and utilise the terracing in front of it to the West Stand, you could actually fit in a GAA pitch.

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The South stand is too far away. Without a doubt.

A GAA pitch is too big, but can't say I'm surprised that you are trying to turn this round into something else.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

A couple of points that always have always shown that to be a nonsense arguement. The current distance from the front of the South Stand of Windsor would be at least the same in a multi purpose stadium. The West Stand is also set back from the pitch too.

If you were to take your measurements of Windsor from the front of the Railway Stand and utilise the terracing in front of it to the West Stand, you could actually fit in a GAA pitch

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You have a point- the existing seats in Windsor's South and (disused) East/ railway stands are a long way from the touch and goal lines. Even if the terracing in the South was reopened or converted to seats, the grass/hardstanding area is still about 84m across- GAA requires between 80m and 90m I think.

On the other hand- a showpiece GAA stadium would be bigger, so clearly the gaps from touchline and goalline would be greater, as at Croke.

Personally, I don't mind being well behind the action (I watch a lot of cricket), I'm in favour of shared stadia for cost reasons and I'd prefer to stay at a revamped Windsor.

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Originally Posted by awec

The South stand is too far away. Without a doubt.

A GAA pitch is too big, but can't say I'm surprised that you are trying to turn this round into something else.

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:confused: All I have done is point out the folly in your argument. I haven't brought anything else into the debate. What "something else" are you saying I am turning it to?

Just because the South Stand is a million miles away, doesn’t make a folly of his argument to say that the GAA pitch is far to big.

I sit in the South Stand every other week and everyone around us agrees the pitch is to far away from the action and we miss small details through out the game.

Unlike the North Stand where it is right over the pitch and you have a perfect view. Have that right around the pitch and it is perfect for football. You wouldn’t get this with a GAA pitch playing football on it.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Just because the South Stand is a million miles away, doesn’t make a folly of his argument to say that the GAA pitch is far to big.

I sit in the South Stand every other week and everyone around us agrees the pitch is to far away from the action and we miss small details through out the game.

Unlike the North Stand where it is right over the pitch and you have a perfect view. Have that right around the pitch and it is perfect for football. You wouldn’t get this with a GAA pitch playing football on it.

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I suggest you read back on the post made, the assertion contained in it and my response.