I trust you, you're occasionally right :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus
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I trust you, you're occasionally right :pQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus
It has been known to happen on occasionQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
im tipsy after the celebrations post of the thread is a great honour
Unfortunately, young english talent costs way over the odds due to the general lack of it coming through, so its cheaper to go and get players from around the world and bring them in, and to be honest, the arsenal style requires players of a certain technical capacity which is, no offence to anyone, i think rarely seen in english talent, its just a continental thing, and thats the balance of those continental factors going up against and the english grit which makes the league so exciting to watch.Quote:
Surely Arsene Wengers scouts could find some English talent and develope it.
But back on topic, :) As an arsenal fan, i think we're playing well, but its early days, you have to respect ferguson and united, but arsenal respect united, not fear united, which makes a big difference. Arsenal have a togetherness in the team not seen since the unbeaten run ( and yes before you mention it we do all know who ended it), but we shall see who wins in may. If we don't win it, its no big loss, wenger has built a team of youngsters, who if they stay together should dominate the league for years to come!
:eek: First Scott Brown, now Carrick. If you're being serious you're clueless when it comes to football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
They have a few good English youngsters now though , the llikes of Kieran Gibbs and Rhys Murphy all look promising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomo
Wenger was in FourFourTwo this month saying that some of the English players in the national U-17 side are fantastic and that he's trying to get a few on board
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Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
Carrick is poor. Who would you rather have in your team? Fabregras or Carrick? Its not Wegners fault the foregin players are better quality than the English players. You hardly think he looks at thier nationality and says "oh no there english i wont sign them" :ball:
technically english players wouldnt even be in the top 10/15 in the world as wenger likes his teams to play the game properly it makes sense to buy players who are technically better than english players.all wengers players only need 1 touch to control the ball and then its a pass most of the rest of the league need 2/3 touches to get it down then its a punt forward
:confused: Where did I mention anything about Fabregas?Quote:
Originally Posted by L37Ultra
Anyway there must be something in the water down in Limerick. Carrick is class, in my opinion better than Gerrard and Lampard. He is not the typical 'English midfielder' as he his technique and vision are the main parts of his game. He can also control a game from midfield. He is one of those players who always appears to have that extra second on the ball, which is down to his class.
come on now you have to be taken the ****Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
carrick better than gerrard and lampard:eek:
gerrard or lampard injured would be beter than him
all he can do is pass it to scholes, thats it, hes a joke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
I never said you mentioned anything about Fabregas but we were talking about the fact that Aresnal have a mostly all foregin team and my point was that why would Wenger buy English players when the players abroad are much cheaper and of a higher quality. And come off it, Carrick better than Lampard and Gerrard. In all fairness I know you said that to get your point across but you honestly cant think that. I know their different types of players but I know who id prefer to be in my team. Carricks apperances for England against those of Gerrards and Lampards speak for itself!! And on the something in the water comment, I think your mistaking Limerick for Galway :D
I read a quote from Wenger recently saying that young continental footballers have better technque and more footballing intelligence than their English peers.
No England fan who doesn't support Chelsea would want Lampard in the team. He is imo not a good enough all rounder. Gerrard is class but I still wonder what his best position is. Wenger doesn't like English players David Bentley is a super midfielder and Wenger got ride of him because he liked to have a laugh. Pennant should have been kept at the club, after his mum died he had a rough time so what did Wenger do other than turf him out on his ear. Wenger wants foreigners because they are less trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by L37Ultra
Hmmm, yes. Pennant of course has been a resounding success at Liverpool.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
He was given every chance at Arsenal and he blew it.
The likes of Bentley,Stokes,Muamba,Hoyte and Sidwell came through the ranks at Arsenal so itsnot like they have'nt been bringing players through.If they are not good enough to make it at first team level so be it.It would be foolish to play them just for the sake of it.When Man U won the champions league in 99 there was only four English players in the team.The Premiership would be poorer without the likes of Fabregas and Toure.Its only if clubs are importing inferior talent there is an issue.
9/18 in 99 compared (not including Paul Scholes who would have started) to 2/18 for arsenal 2006 vs barca. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
You're really hung up on this aspect aren't you? Why is it relevant?
I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly. Home grown talent for me is the most important thing about a club is there any better feeling than seeing the young lad who signed for a club as a 12 year old go on to become a legend at a club. Thats what football is about after all not bringing half of Clairefontaine and Africa to a club in search of the holy grail.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
In that case the ideal situation would be Rooney lining out for his boyhood club Everton not athe club most scousers grow up hating who paid millions for him.What about East End London boy Rio(35 million) Geordie Carrick (18 million)Tevez(not sure what his franchise fee is this year),Ronaldo(12 million)Nani&Anderson(40 million combined?)
Vidic,Evra,Saha,Hargreaves(25 million) and of course there was the whole Veron debacle.Yes there was the UTD golden gerneration which came through maybe ten years ago but Arsenal had keown,Adams,Parlour,Cole etc.
Man U are no Ajax they are the biggest buyers of ready made talent after Chelsea.I prefer Wengers method of identifying raw talent and developing them into great players.Whether they are English or not is irrelevant.
homegrown talent is a thing of the past with the big clubs and not just in england the next best thing is buying youngsters at 15/16 make trying to make them into players
just on utd i think neville and scholes are the only homegrown players left also they havent brought a player through since them aswell
If you want to be really technical- OShea, Fletcher, Pique, Gibson(1 of only 4 irish players registered to play champions league), Evans X2, Martin, Shawcross, Cathcart, Brandy and Simpson to name but a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by see's it
That list represents FIVE different national teams....well if you want to be really technical.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
But apart from the extraordinary success of the 1992 youth team vintage has United, or any other team, been a shining beacon in this regard since then?Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
Liverpool have been successful in the youth cup recently yet promote nobody. Ipswich won the youth cup (with 5-6 Irish on board too) 2 years ago and a good portion of this team is still involved. Where? In the Championship. Why? Because the bar has been set so high in the Premiership (Chelsea as good as won 8 or 9 games out of every ten) that taking a chance on youth was almost guaraneed to set you off the pace.
How is Pique any different to the Arsenal players you refer to? Or Anderson or nanni or whoever?
O'Shea and Fletcher are hardly fans' favourites are they? Useful sqaud fillers but nothing else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
Peter Schmeichel
Gary Neville
Jaap Stam
Ronny Johnsen
Denis Irwin
Ryan Giggs
Nicky Butt
David Beckham
Jesper Blomqvist
Andy Cole
Dwight Yorke
The side was packed with homegrown talent alright.
Barca had 3 spanish players in the 2006 winning side, Bayern had 4 German starters in '01
4 that had been with United from school boys, would've been 5 if it wasn't for the Scholes suspension. 4 out of those 5 are from Manchester/ Salford.
Wenger is a great talent spotter. It'd be wrong to suggest he's genuinely bringing through players when he's buying them in at 16/17 when the real technical development has been done. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just different from what he's credited for.
As for overall, the statistics speak for themselves. Credit to Wenger for being the only one that's been able to last the pace and keep bringing teams to challenge United. Everyone else has been couple of seasons wonder.
btw It's not surprising that people with no geographic connection to the team they support write off the benefits of homegrown players. I know at United there's always a special place with the fans for the hometown players. It's obvious enough that someone Dublin, Galway wherever isn't going to "get" that.
btw2 I noticed a couple of references to Kidd's youth team as if it was nothing to do with Ferguson. That just shows a total lack of knowledge as to how Ferguson totally rebuilt the youth structure of United when he took over. He put in place the right people that made it a success. Also plenty of others (other than Fergie or Kidd) working in the background that brought through those players.
Thats the most sensible post yet. 15 of Uniteds squad have "no previous club" beside their names as oppossed to 7 of Arsenals. Ferguson love him or hate him. Set up one the most productive youth systems the world has ever seen or will ever see!! Wenger has a great footballing side yet again but it aint english! it plays in the premier league thats about it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
and utd fans wonder then why their hatedQuote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
To be fair, this is ludicrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
here are some the names you offer in support -
Not exactly household names, most of them.Quote:
OShea, Fletcher, Pique, Gibson(1 of only 4 irish players registered to play champions league), Evans X2, Martin, Shawcross, Cathcart, Brandy and Simpson to name but a few.
But from the starting 11, only 4 were English, and Andy Cole came from a diffrerent club, plus Giggs. IQuote:
On Champions League night, you say -
I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly.
On the other hand, 10 of the Bayern starters were German. You must have been really rooting for them.
[QUOTE=osarusan;819109]To be fair, this is ludicrous.
What is ludicrous about it?. The lads I named have been at the club since they were kids. What do you class as a good youth system?. Buying in players at 17/18 or signing them as 10/11 year olds. United have a history of building a great sides from youth set ups. Arsenal dont!!
I dont support Man Utd I just think that the Arsenal fans are talking shti bout Wenger and the "youth system" because it isn't Wenger has the best Scouting system in the world. Lets pray the qouta on foreigners is passed then Wenger will shti a brick...
I don't want to get into this debate, but Bayern have a history of sucking all of the domestic talent into their clutches. For example, Deisler and Ballach were given large fees to sign pre-contracts 18 months before their contracts expired, so their clubs earned no fees for them. The practice was made illegal shortly afterwards - you can't sign a pre-contract that far ahead now. There's a reason the Bundesliga is often a one team league.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I'm not commenting on their youth policy (although I had no idea about what you've just posted, it is interesting), just pointing out that they were all from the country their club plays in.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, Anderson, Vidic, Evra etc... None were ready made world class players when signing for united in fairness - all young ldas with raw talents which SFA thought he could turn into world class players. Vidic would be one of the best examples IMO, no one knew of him when he signed and everyone thought SFA had really lost the plot for real, after a tough start has now turned into one of the best centre halfs in the EPL.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
In saying that there is no doubting that Wengers scouts are absolutely superb !
Linfield are the most successful team in the world and we ahve a team full of home grown talent :D
in Rooneys and Tevezs case especially , it was hardly a shot in the dark when he was going to sign them , at the time of both signings most of the top teams in the world would have liked to have them both . Evra had already played in a Champions League final and was in the French squad before he had signed him so again hardly a raw young fellaQuote:
Originally Posted by BrayUnknowns
I'd agree with what Gustavo said and add that the above twoQuote:
Originally Posted by BrayUnknowns
are still not world class players by any means.Quote:
not ready made world class players when signing for united in fairness
Carlos Tevez got in massive trouble with Corinthians when he was younger for wearing a Man Utd jersey he was spotted long before West Ham knew who he was. Remember back to the first 3 or 4 games Evra played he was ridiculed by the media after the Man City match in particular. He disappeared for 3/4 months and came back twice the player, same applied to Vidic. United knew well what they were doing signing them. Have you finally accepted what Im saying Osarusan bout Arsenal.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
If you were more careful, you'd have noticed that nowhere on this thread have I said Wenger has a good youth policy. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2
However you aren't more careful, so you didn't notice.
If you want to argue that Wenger's youth policy is poor, there are better ways to do it than to exaggerate the success of Man United's youth policy.
So fu*king what. Surely, surely, surely, you wouldn't be so silly as to offer this as evidence of Man. United's youth policy. Tevez was already world famous when Man. United signed him.Quote:
Originally Posted by shanman2