Dublin Bus Strike

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Originally Posted by Macy

All part of the same pot as people hating unions. Afterall, Trade Unions are made up of normal working people. The attitude today prevails that they must be smashed

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I'm not sure that is the prevailing attitude. I'd sat more workers are members of union than not. As previously stated its just that employers federation and the like have more sway with the media, and do a better PR job.

I also despise the way people blame unions for doing stuff, when basically they only move when demanded to do so by workers.

Still don't think there's much wrong with Dublin Bus in this dispute, but has been said its the workers that feel aggrieved.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm not sure that is the prevailing attitude. I'd sat more workers are members of union than not. As previously stated its just that employers federation and the like have more sway with the media, and do a better PR job.

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On reflection, you're probably right. Maybe views are just more polarised?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I also despise the way people blame unions for doing stuff, when basically they only move when demanded to do so by workers.

Still don't think there's much wrong with Dublin Bus in this dispute, but has been said its the workers that feel aggrieved.

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Certainly in our Branch disputes are avoided were possible and infact it'll be the full time officials talking people down from more drastic action a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by Macy

On reflection, you're probably right. Maybe views are just more polarised?

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Certainly think so. Although even that may just be internet rubbish. "He who shouts loudest" and all that...

My previous union was notorious for inaction. Despite numerous meetings/compaints etc I think they only contacted management once (outside of normal partnership type meetings)

Much as I depise the typical individuals who are the public faces of unions (whose self interest is firmly in maintaining and stoking the somewhat outdated "them versus us" mentality) , capitalism by its nature is rarely benevolent, ergo unions remain necessary in the absence of strong government regulation of the business sector.

Not sure if any information exists on both productivity/profit and pay levels in unionised vs non-unionised sectors, but something like this would make interesting reading.

Not entirely sure how this translates to the public sector (tbh having no real experience of working in it I, rightly or wrongly, view all civil servants with an element of mistrust).

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Not sure if any information exists on both productivity/profit and pay levels in unionised vs non-unionised sectors, but something like this would make interesting reading.

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The interpretation would be a nightmare though. How would you classify industries/ employments for starters before you even get onto the outcomes. After all, some would see high profitability and low pay as good thing, other's would see that as the workers not getting their fair share, and vica versa. Then you'd also have the working conditions, bonuses etc.

It'd be the stupid "average pay" arguments times about 100! :D

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Originally Posted by Macy

The interpretation would be a nightmare though. How would you classify industries/ employments for starters before you even get onto the outcomes. After all, some would see high profitability and low pay as good thing, other's would see that as the workers not getting their fair share, and vica versa. Then you'd also have the working conditions, bonuses etc.

It'd be the stupid "average pay" arguments times about 100! :D

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I see what you mean, but what I would like to see would be, ceteris paribus, higher productivity and higher wage increases in non-unionised sectors when compared with similar unionised sectors.

This would at least question the benefit of the adversarial approach of most unions.

Remember, if an individual employee feels that their employer respects them and treats and rewards them fairly, then unions become unnecessary.

Purely utopian ideal maybe, but worth flagging that unions are not always necessary.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Remember, if an individual employee feels that their employer respects them and treats and rewards them fairly, then unions become unnecessary.

Purely utopian ideal maybe, but worth flagging that unions are not always necessary.

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I don't think anyone has claimed that unions are neccessary in utopia in fairness...

But in real world industrial politik, they are most definitely needed

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

On the comparison between the LUAS and the DART, they both get Public money. One has private money aswell.

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But the lads at Luas do not do stuff like shut down the entire system because one of their son's gets caught fiddling the fare box as happened on the Dublin-Cork line when a rural station master in the middle of the rush hour decided to defend sonny's boys honour after his son was being investigated for missing fares. You see the difference?

It's CIE union thing - it a sick, sick culture within the NBRU - they know no other way of working than being a law unto themselves and they are not public transport professionals in any way. Just a shower who are paid by us to drive buses and trains when it suits THEM.

That brings up another major issue in the CIE unions, incredible nepotism and inter-generational employment for the sons and grandsons of CIE employees and us the suckers in the private sector paying for this system of economic aparthide.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

On the state of public transport in Dublin - it is only subsidised to 5% of its running costs - the privately run London tube is subsidised to the tune of 35% of its running costs by the government. Public transport in spain is recieves subsidies of around 50% of its running costs. So you see, in comparison Irish public transport is GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED!

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I am sorry but in 2007 this is complete bull**** and has been for about 6 years when the huge bucks started flowing in the public transport again. The issue is that a lot of the money spent on capital investment does not always relate to the same level of increased service due to the work-to-rule nature of the CIE workforce. The entire Dublin bus fleet has been replaced, all the tracks, signalling and 90% of railway rolling stock on Irish Rail has been replaced with new gear. So change the "underfunded" record - it's not relevant anymore.

Have we really got ourselves the level of service to match the level of capital investment? I do not think we have. How come other European countries deliver public transport services using old gear and with a tiny subvention compared to what CIE gets off Irish taxpayers?

Here in Ireland we build gyms for Dublin Bus workers and they go on strike! Go to any Eastern European country and you have manky old trams, trains and buses. But they come every couple of minutes and are always useful and very reliable. It's called a "service" for a reason. The NBRU forced CIE to leave brand new trains for the Dublin-Cork line sitting at Limerick Junction for NINE MONTHS and when they finally went into service the *****s refused to drive them! Is this normal to anybody outside the sick, dysfunctional world of the CIE unions?

Here we have CIE with loads of new kit and it's still a case of "are ye right there Micheal" in terms of service. This is a shocking waste of taxpayers money and it lies 100% with the unions in CIE who want gyms (naturally) and new buses and trains (maybe), but still want to work some lazy roster and be given medals for doing it. Ireland is a 24/7 society and economy in 2007. It's still 1977 in the CIE unions.

Consider the situation were the Waterford to Limerick inter-city rail and Hueston to Kildare commuter lines have no Sunday train service as the sons, fathers, grandsons, uncles and cousins who drive the trains want a day off. This is were the gap in public transport service versus actual service improvements are...the NBRU's institutionalised mindset.

One more thing. How come the Luas turns a profit and requires no annual subvention, while every single element of the CIE transport sector sucks in cash like a giant Dyson? The answer is simple, see above.

I was a socialist until I started investigating the NBRU. I am not joking. I am 100% being honest here. I have been studying the CIE unions for a few years now and some of the stuff I came across turned me from a socialist to the capitalist. I am not joking.

Including:

• A new staircase installed at Pearse which after 2 years of complex negotiations between 14 separate CIE unions was finally declared ready for public use. Only to remain locked as the staff at Pearse didn't feel like opening it. It still remains locked.
  
• A bus stop which was moved 50 meters on the Long Mile Road to make way for QBC improvements was turned into a "disturbance money" shakedown by the bus drivers. This issue has still not been resolved after 2 years.
  
• In 1986 a German company wanted to build trains for worldwide export at Inchicore and the CIE train builders unions said no as it would of meant recruiting 3,000 workers from outside CIE (this was at a time were Ireland had 16% unemployment and badly needed outside investment). 3,000 jobs were lost to the Irish economy thanks to the "daycent oul skins" at CIE unions standing up for worker's rights.

ad it goes on and on and on. I could sit here all night typing but I really need to look after my heart.

I'll just close by saying I am not anti-union as such and the situation at Luas shows that a happy compromise between public and private sector can work and deliver good public transport to all. But that abomination we witnessed at Harristown last week was simply lowlife carry on and cannot be defended. The reason why this happened, is because this is the culture within the CIE unions. The are completely out of control and know no other way to function.

Like I said, bring on the Metro and more Luas lines so we can keep the working public transport in this country doing what public transport is mean to do. Serve the eh, "public."

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I don't think anyone has claimed that unions are neccessary in utopia in fairness...

But in real world industrial politik, they are most definitely needed

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What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

Union officials wages need to come from somewhere and therefore in their interest to keep membership as high as possible.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

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If you are paying subs & never strike what is the point. I would guess most union leaders earn nice big salaries & won't criticise the government as they want to get appointed to State boards when they retire.

Still interesting that no one has been able to justify the Dublin Bus strike. A few people supporting but no reasons why... :confused:

Public transport needs large investment but paying the bus drivers more money after each shakedown won't improve the service. When Iarnrod Eireann introduce new trains the union went on strike. When the DAA created more space at Dublin Airport the baggage handlers tried to shake them down for a payout just to work in a different room. :rolleyes: Employees of monopolies (public & private) are always the most militant.

Brendan Ogle should be banned from representing people that work in critical public services.

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Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

But the lads at Luas do not do stuff like shut down the entire system because one of their son's gets caught fiddling the fare box as happened on the Dublin-Cork line

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I thought you were complaining about the DART

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That brings up another major issue in the CIE unions, incredible nepotism and inter-generational employment for the sons and grandsons of CIE employees and us the suckers in the private sector paying for this system of economic aparthide.

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Do us civil servants not count? Can't be nepotism in there and we pay as much tax as anyone. From my experience the nepotism thing is worst in big private sector companies like Banks etc

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

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I agree to some extent, but it's more that the members don't come looking until there's an issue that effects them. We immediately saw an increase of approx 25% when we started on an issue here. It's the members that dictate, not the other way round. Infact I'd go as far as to say in most cases it's the Officials talking down the members more than the other way round!

Union density has suffered as a result of the Unions buying into Partnership, at a local and national level (it is one of the conditions of the wage agreements). It has to be a two way street though - most disputes are when the management don't stick to agreements.


Bohs so Good - to repeat my earlier post, LUAS is a SIPTU closed shop. You know, the union that is the root of all evil according to your earlier posts.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

What unions do need is conflict every once in a while, otherwise they don't get to prove their worth to their members.

Union officials wages need to come from somewhere and therefore in their interest to keep membership as high as possible.

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Again I can speak about my area but unions play a big part in wage negotiations etc. Plenty of support too for individual disputes with management

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Originally Posted by pete

Still interesting that no one has been able to justify the Dublin Bus strike. A few people supporting but no reasons why... :confused:

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Most have said that they don't know enough. To go back to last week, I'll say again, allowing the same time that the Dublin Bus route says it takes from Harristown to the City Centre would've been a start! 45 or 50 minutes, it's still Harristown to Eden Quay 60minutes as per the timetable! Also obvious enough Management were trying to play the system with minor route changes to give major terms and conditions changes rather than go through the proper procedures. i.e. Management trying to pull a fast one, which the Unions pulled them up on. I doubt they'll try the same again too soon, whereas if it'd been let through...

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Originally Posted by pete

Brendan Ogle should be banned from representing people that work in critical public services.

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People should have the right to be represented by who they want.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Certainly think so. Although even that may just be internet rubbish. "He who shouts loudest" and all that...

My previous union was notorious for inaction. Despite numerous meetings/compaints etc I think they only contacted management once (outside of normal partnership type meetings)

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How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

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Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

I am sorry but in 2007 this is complete bull**** and has been for about 6 years when the huge bucks started flowing in the public transport again.

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I based my post on the latest figures.

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Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

I was a socialist until I started investigating the NBRU. I am not joking. I am 100% being honest here. I have been studying the CIE unions for a few years now and some of the stuff I came across turned me from a socialist to the capitalist. I am not joking.

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Sounds like a massive wind up to me. The NBRU and SIPTU have little to do with Socialism, other than that Socialists advocate unionised workforces. We also oppose undemocratic union bureaucracies.

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Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

Like I said, bring on the Metro and more Luas lines so we can keep the working public transport in this country doing what public transport is mean to do. Serve the eh, "public."

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Private companies exist to make a profit for their shareholders. The metro will be payed for out of taxpayers money, then a private company will come in and take the profits. Recently LUAS announced they would increase their fares at rush hour.
Private operators are only interested in lucrative profitable routes. The CIE companies will be then left to try and run the unprofitable but essential lesser used routes with less cash to fund them. WOrkers in CIE companies will be asked to take pay cuts so the state company can compete with yellow pack labour in the private firms. We already have two glaring examples of this in Irish Ferries and now Aer Lingus.
The LUAS is a success, not because is run by a private company but because demand exists for the service. It would be no different if it was run by a state company. However the workers might get paid a bit better.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

How would you differentiate between workers and management as a matter of interest?

I've found that in many companies (particularly relatively new businesses) nowadays there is a blurring or a complete absence of distinction between management and non-management grades.

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In my sector its very clear cut(with HR being definied as management).

I agree with the thrust of your arguement though

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Originally Posted by Spanner

Unions are a joke. They'd call a strike for the slightest change in their work processes. They were a curse on this country for a long time and now its seems to be in vogue again!

It's ESB next possibly according to RTE News

Of course it's alway involves ex state-run companies - feckers wouldn't last a second in a job in the private sector!

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Please read the thread before making stoopid comments.

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

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Originally Posted by jebus

And you think being squashed into a non air conditioned carriage like a sardine, with people jabbing you in the ribs at every turn (thats of course assuming that people can actually move their arms at this stage) with more and more people pilling on at each stop isn't the worst part of your day?

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Have you ever driven during the rush hour? There's no contest.

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Originally Posted by pete

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

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We should have a Daft Post of the Month competition. :rolleyes:


The media is owned by Billionaires in the case of the private media and controlled by the pro-capitalist/neo-liberal state/government in the case of the national broadcaster. Journalists know which side their bread is buttered on and it clearly isn't the workers' side.

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Originally Posted by pete

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ. Can you work for a newspaper without being an NUJ member? If Dublin Bus strikers ahd a valid case I am sure their comrades would back them up.

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Come off it pete, this has to be a wind up? Journalists have got pulled off stories in the last couple of years because they were being too balanced (not even pro union), at the same time as the main protagonists on the management side were given columns!

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Originally Posted by pete

If anything the media are biased in favour of unions as the vast majority of them are in the NUJ

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Without a doubt the worst arguement ever put forward in the current affairs forum

Everyone thinks that the media is biased against them. It's because you tend to remember the articles disagreeing with you more than the ones agreeing.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Everyone thinks that the media is biased against them. It's because you tend to remember the articles disagreeing with you more than the ones agreeing.

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I disagree. The media have always been anti-union and anti-worker.

I see the start of competition for Dublin Bus with the Swords Express service & no public subsidy. They seem to be running service throughout the day too & not just cherry picking the peak times. I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.

Competition can only be good for the consumer as long as no private monopolies to go alongside the public one.

I checked the Dublin Bus website & takes approx 50 minutes to get from Harristown to City centre on regular bus service. I get that Dublin Bus workers would strike if they changed the colour of the buses.

Incidentally big changes in France in relation to opinions on unions. Government elected on mandate of change & apparently for first time possibly ever majority of people opposed the transport worker strike before it started. Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:

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Originally Posted by pete

I see the start of competition for Dublin Bus with the Swords Express service & no public subsidy. They seem to be running service throughout the day too & not just cherry picking the peak times. I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.

Competition can only be good for the consumer as long as no private monopolies to go alongside the public one.

I checked the Dublin Bus website & takes approx 50 minutes to get from Harristown to City centre on regular bus service. I get that Dublin Bus workers would strike if they changed the colour of the buses.

Incidentally big changes in France in relation to opinions on unions. Government elected on mandate of change & apparently for first time possibly ever majority of people opposed the transport worker strike before it started. Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:

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Theres a bus company called circle line that runs from Nutgrove to Celbridge as well, apparently its fairly good havent been on it myself though.

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Originally Posted by pete

Apparently train workers in France can retire at 50 with full pensions. Insanity! :eek:

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Same in Guinness. Plenty or large private sector jobs with pension only require 30/35 years service

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Same in Guinness. Plenty or large private sector jobs with pension only require 30/35 years service

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That is their choice. Private companies can pay people not to work if they like. I would love a job like that too but will you pay for it?

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Originally Posted by pete

That is their choice. Private companies can pay people not to work if they like. I would love a job like that too but will you pay for it?

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WTF?!! Just go to France a become a train driver :rolleyes:

Are you just randomly spouting things you don't like now?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

WTF?!! Just go to France a become a train driver :rolleyes:

Are you just randomly spouting things you don't like now?

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I mentioned in the context of unions protesting about issues no sane individual could defend. When the French public are opposing strikes it is a sign that their future is near an end.

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

Theres a bus company called circle line that runs from Nutgrove to Celbridge as well, apparently its fairly good havent been on it myself though.

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Seen them around, never seen more than two people on them though.

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Originally Posted by pete

When the French public are opposing strikes it is a sign that their future is near an end.

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What, all the French people??

I think you'll see Sarkozy in the grave before the French left somehow pete.

I would imagine the majority (again how big?) protesting is down to the fact that after they drag on for awhile public transport strikes are an unholy nuisance

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Originally Posted by pete

I am not familiar with the route but apparently it is in competition with 41X & I assume if that service (cheaper) was good would be no room for private operator.

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The private operator has exclusive rights to use the port tunnel. You get in in no time. Dublin bus were prevented by the government from using that route. It was actually kept idle since the opening of the tunnel just so it could be given to a private operator.
If this is competition - its rigged!

The belief that competition is good for the consumer is one that has been drummed into us by the media and tools like Eddie Hobbs for some time. Lets look at this objectively if we can for a minute. Where is the competition in the case of the example Pete gave. The private operator is given a plum route by the government. The state company is left with having to do a full circuit of Swords - by government dictat - before it even starts out towards the city centre. They are not in competition because they are not on the same route.
In England where all public transport is privatised there is no competition - it cannot exist in public transport! Take Liverpool as an example I am very familiar with. Stagecoach run some routes and Arriva others. If you live in Everton valley, you have to get a stagecoach bus. If you are out in Speke you have to get an Arriva one. Where's the competition?
Same applies for the rail service over there. I could go on and on.
Dublin Bus provides a public service. It does not exist to make a profit. It exists to move people around the city. It has to run some extremely unprofitable routes. With the severe lack of funding it gets it needs the profitable ones to stay afloat. This is nothing if not the good old fashioned Thatcherite method of sewing discontent in public services through deliberate underfunding and mismanagement so they can throw then out to their fat cat friends to make a killing.

Socialist piece on the outcome of the strike

And on the situation in France

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The private operator has exclusive rights to use the port tunnel. You get in in no time. Dublin bus were prevented by the government from using that route. It was actually kept idle since the opening of the tunnel just so it could be given to a private operator.
If this is competition - its rigged!

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Dublin Bus had actually started running buses through the port tunnel and were banned when it was found out. They were blocked by the same minister who launched the private service and saying how great it was that new routes were being provided by the private sector. :rolleyes:

Every privatisation and de-regulation has been a farce in this country. Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough. Markets have to be rigged to allow the private companies to make profits and enter the market, which means higher prices for consumers not lower prices. So essentially what is the point, bar misguided ideology?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Dublin Bus had actually started running buses through the port tunnel and were banned when it was found out. They were blocked by the same minister who launched the private service and saying how great it was that new routes were being provided by the private sector. :rolleyes:

Every privatisation and de-regulation has been a farce in this country. Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough. Markets have to be rigged to allow the private companies to make profits and enter the market, which means higher prices for consumers not lower prices. So essentially what is the point, bar misguided ideology?

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I think that's only half true. There are lots of industries where competition is perfectly sensible and others where it doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

I think that's only half true. There are lots of industries where competition is perfectly sensible and others where it doesn't work.

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There's not really industries that are public left are there? What's left is our strategic infrastructure and key public services.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Now, there may be an arguable case in larger markets (probably not a convincing one), but it's clear that the Irish market isn't substantial enough.

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Macy, you seem to be scathing of sweeping generalisations when used in the "unions are evil" context, but yet use them yourself in the context of privatisation, which reads akin to "big business is bad"!

The Aircoach service is a prime example of a successful private sector bus enterprise.

As Student Mullet says, there are cases where public sector provision suits (or possible public sector support of the private sector, eg through PSO) and cases where private sector is better. They can and do co-exist happily.

I do agree that privatisations have been mishandled by and large, but this doesn't necessarily make them a bad idea, it simply reflects on the clowns who handled the privatisation.

No, I'm genuinely not. I'm saying if the case is that competition is better then it should be able to do so without market interference.

Air Coach has been a success - would the Department of Transport allow another firm, let alone Dublin Bus compete on that route? Even where there are private operators there isn't competition - there is a private sector monopoly.

We want competition in the health insurance market - lets make VHI put up it's prices to bring companies in. We want competition in the electricity market - lets put up electricity prices to bring companies in. We want competition in the transport sector - let's restrict routes to one operator only. What benefit is for the actual consumer, rather than the owners of the privately help competition?

Even that supposed example of how competition works, Ryanair, was given a leg up by Government stopping Aer Lingus competing on the certain routes.

Government privatisations/ de-regulations should be all about the consumer. Unfortunately, they've all been ideologically driven not consumer driven.

I'd imagine the constraint to a private sector competitor to Aircoach is simply the lack of space at Dublin Airport.

In terms of health insurance, the equalisation payments that underpin community rating (everyone paying the same) create the problem. A true market-based system would do away with community rating but as we are still pretending we have a public health system in Ireland this is apparently unacceptable.

In general terms, the approach to privatisation is one of opening up markets slowly to competition by regulating entry to the sector (a la most of the examples you have provided) versus a big bang type approach, which whilst probably beneficial in the long-term for the customer (Darwinian evolution, only the strongest survive and the price is what the market can bear) creates market disruption and the potential for hugely varying prices and levels of service in the short-term.

As for your airline example, whilst that may have been true in the past, not sure that type of government interference is occuring now?