its fair enough that Stan likes Ireland, the issue is that Ireland does'nt like Ireland.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
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its fair enough that Stan likes Ireland, the issue is that Ireland does'nt like Ireland.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Lads,filling this key position with a capable player is imo going to be the biggest challenge for our new manager.I know it has being said before but apart from Carsley there is no one else suitable coming through.All of the players mentioned, the two Reids,Miller etc are just not the type of players suited to defensive midfield duties.O Shea I wont even comment on.Even Gibson and Garvan promising as they are, are not in this mould.We are left with Joey O Brien who had a mare against Cyprus but in fairness he was'nt match fit and would need practise playing there for Bolton.At Int level you need a fella whose is playing there regulalry for his club side.Any ideas?
Are you talking about a steriotypical holding midfielder of the Carsley, Lennon type? If so I think those type of players are becoming rarer and rarer. Managers are playing playmakers more and more in the holding position while the combative players are given more freedom. The only Carsley type holding midfielder I can think of coming through is the lad Alan Power off Forest. Then again, Carsley and Lennon weren't playing the holding role at 19 or 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
We've a flood of technically gifted midfielders coming through and I'm really excited about that. Anyway, Andy Reid for me. A couple of energetic midfielders in beside him would be nice in some kind of 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation.
4-5-1 :rolleyes: How I hate that formation. It doesn't suit our style of play and gifts possession to the opposition.
Aye Milan, Roma, etc. gift the ball the the opposition regularly. ;)
I'm not talking about the basic 4-5-1 defensive formation.
-------F-------
M--M--M--M--M
I mean 4-5-1 / (slash) 4-3-3
--------Doyle---------
Duff-------------Keane
---???---Reid---Reid---
You could say it might aswell be a 4-4-2 with one of the Reid's playing on the right but I think both Reid's are much better in the centre, Duff could do with a little more freedom and Keane would thrive in that position, starting his runs from deep rather than having to come deep with his back to goal. Doyle proved against Slovakia that he can certainly play the lone role but he's not exactly going to be up there on his own anyway.
Agree totally. If we had both Reids fit they'd make a great combo - in theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattie
4-5-1 works for me in principle because the biggest problem we face is that our midfield 2 get overrun in most games they play or at best fail to get a grip. Having a core 3 in midfield goes some way to solving this. Didn't we do it at home to Czech Rep (Douglas, Carsley, A. Reid, flanked by Kilbane & Duff and with Keane upfront, supported by A. Reid who had most license to venture forward from midfield)?
Portugal used to use this and played super football, dominating possession at will. However, like us, Portugal didn't have a really reliable goalscorer. Nuno Gomez or Paulita (?) just weren't dependable enough so there's a huge onus on goals from midfield.
Having tactically intelligent players is important if you're to tinker with the shape. I don't think we have them unfortunately.
Anyway, as Billsthoughts, me and a few others here regularly suggest, "holding midfielder" is simply a trendy term that is misused by most and means little of substance anyway. Football is about passing, running with the ball and tackling. As long as your two central midfielders can do enough of this between them that's what counts in my opinion.
Looks similar to the Barcelona formation there , so you could say we are looking for a Deco / Iniesta type there reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
Looks about right to me but Andy Reid would be more of the playmaker (Xavi) with Steven Reid the box to box (Iniesta). Barca are just a few classes above us in every department. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
I've seen a bit of Everton recently and they're playing some beautiful football. Carsley holding midfield with Arteta, Cahill, Osman and Pienaar supporting Yakubu. That's a bit more our level.
I'm all for playing Carsley as long as there's a couple of gifted midfielders ahead of him. He's not really suited to a 4-4-2.
Agreed.. But it also offers something in terms of absorbing absences and suspensions. Ireland can come in for A. Reid, McGeady for Duff or Keane etcQuote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
Well, Dublin certainly has a proud history of producing Deco's, Anto's, Wacker's, Mackers................................Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Quite a bit above our level in my opinion! Arteta is a really good player and I honestly think Cahill is real class. Best outfield player on the pitch (ex-Cannavaro maybe) by a country mile when I saw Italy play Australia in the last 16 of the 2006 World Cup. Very underrated player. God, if we had those two available for Ireland we'd be on the pig's back.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
There a was thread a while back asking if you could pick one non-Irish player (jokes aside) who would it be. Many said Essien but I think Cahill would make a massive difference to us.
4-5-1 epecially away from home should be an option for us.I disagree with the
premise that you can be successful without a defensive/holding midfielder.I am struggling to think of any reasonably successful side that did'nt have one.
Away from home its a particular neccessity.The way cyprus ran through us on both occasians springs to mind.
You're not really disagreeing with me though. I think every team needs a "holding midfielder" too. I just think there's a big difference between a holding midfielder and a defensive midfielder. Gattuso is a defensive midfielder but not a holding midfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
We've probably had this debate a few months ago in this thread but I can't be arsed looking back. We have this debate all the time. What is a holding midfielder? I just call the guy that sits in front of the back 4 the holding midfielder. He holds back and doesn't stray forward. Whether that's the Pirlo type or the Carsley type.
I think Andy Reid will be a success in that role. He's slowly but surely turning into a holding midfielder atm anyway. He will probably need 2 players in beside him that'll work hard off the ball. Not necessarily as defensive as Gattuso and Ambrosini but tbh Pirlo, Seedorf and Kaka don't do much defensively so they need those 2 in the Milan team.
Roma play De Rossi, Aquilani and Perrotta in midfield. Sometimes Pizarro. None of those 4 are defensive midfielders.
What I thought we missed in Cyprus was any real intelligent midfielder. Andy Reid isn't a great tackler but you know that with Kilbane and Ireland in beside him he'd naturally sit deep and dictate things. When Cyprus won possession and broke Reid would be there to hopefully slow things down and maybe instruct the other 2 where to be as Kilbane is lost in that role. You don't necessarily need to be a great tackler, just be in the right positions to hold up the opposition. Have a look at the Man Utd team that won 4-1 in Villa park this season:
Van der Sar; Pique, Brown, Ferdinand, Evra; Giggs, Anderson, Scholes, Nani; Tevez, Rooney.
Why is having a "holding midfielder" so important now when the term wasn't even used 10 years ago, or less? Because it's bullsh1t.
Midfield play is about passing, tackling and maybe dribbling. If your midfield can do this better than your opponent's then you've a great advantage. My favoured midfield combo is a ball winner and a ball user, preferably with each player being quite adept at each role. Neither could hold a piece of lego for all I care.
Andy Reid? Playmaker.
Sorry fellas, dontt want to appear to be splitting hairs over exact choice of words to describe type of player we are discussing and take your points on board.Stuttgart your right the holding midfielder fixation appears to be a new trend but is it not just another word for a ball winner?Grealish,Lawreson(sometimes),McGrath and Keane all made sure our defence was not exposed.
Let me just make the arguement a lot simpler and say sorting a suitable midfield partnership will be our new managers biggest challenge.I am not convinced about the two Reids not leaving us exposed but I would love to be proved wrong.If I remember correctly in an away game Jack took the defensive midfielder theory to the limit by playing an ageing Kevin Moran there(against Spain I think).
Interestingly McCann at Burnley has filled in at centre back quite a few times for Burnley in the last year which hopefully will make him a more rounded player.
Its just occured to me actually this debate over which midfielder "sits" has been raging across the waterfor the last few re: Lampard/Gerrard Partnersip.
While I see Andy Reid having the potential to play in a holding role a la Pirlo, he doesn't really play that position for Charlton.
I just watched that match earlier and he started the game just behind the striker in a 4-5-1 like he did with us at home against the Czechs.
Eventually they brought on another striker and he played a more traditional centre mid, but he certainly wasn't holding, he was getting forward moving around, and made a few runs into the box.
I'd agree with Stutts' description of him as a playmaker.
Could he play that holding role? Yes, but I think it would be better if he learned that role at club level, and not just be thrown into that role with us at international level.
I think when the holding midfielder term was invented, being a deep lying player usually meant you were less technically gifted and more of a work horse off the ball. As time goes on the deep lying position is being filled by more and more technically gifted playmakers. The confusion about the term comes from some people referring to the position as the holding midfield position and others just calling the player the holding midfield player. The steriotypical holding midfield player is the combative Gattuso type but, as I said, I don't regard him as a holding midfielder because he doesn't play in the holding midfield position. :) Maybe we should just stop using the term. Stutts would be very happy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
Well spotted!Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
They have the defensive midfielder, Gattuso type, in Hargreaves but they really lack a playmaker imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheifo
Fair point. If you watch him though his movement is superb. He's always in excellent positions to receive the ball which is the most important thing in a deep lying player.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
[QUOTE=eirebhoy;8396
They have the defensive midfielder, Gattuso type, in Hargreaves but they really lack a playmaker imo.
They had one of the best but messed him about for ages in Paul Scholes playing him left wing
Did you see McCann's tackle yesterday? Ouch!
I'd call Carrick a playmaker, but I don't know if he's up to it, always had my doubts about him going to United.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
If we had a whole team of holding midfielders would we be better able to hold on to leads and not give away silly late goals like slovakia away? Its something to think about really.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=UNTAMKxp-MI
I think if anything having too many holding midfielders on at once was our problem there, as when they equalized we had Carsley, Gibson, and Douglas on at the time, all who have played that role in some capacity at club level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
If you want a team to model ourselves on, what about one that won the world cup. Italy 2006
---------- Gattuso -- Pirlo-----------
--Cameronesi-------------Perrotta---
--------------- Totti ----------------
--------------- Toni ----------------
---------- O'Brien -- Reid------------
--Ireland/McGeady------Hunt/Duff---
-------------- Keane ---------------
--------------- Doyle ---------------
I have put O'Brien in the holding role, but it could just as easy be Carsley or maybe Marc wilson in a year or two. Similarly i have put Andy Reid in as a deep playmaker in the Pirlo mould, but it could be Stephen McPhail who can pass a ball, or Stephen Reid for something different.
It would give our back four two men in front of them, and give our front 4 real freedom. Its obvious weakness is down out flanks, but if the midfielders go wide to help when needed, it can be covered. All formations have a weakness. Plus there are very few proper wingers in the international game.
I'd go with the above formation, but with Carsley instead of O'Brien, Keane RW, McGeady LW and Ireland behind Doyle.
Camoranesi and Perrotta do quite a bit off work off the ball though. And De Rossi was first choice for Italy until he got suspended. The Irish selection is a bit too lightweight. None of those players are really combative.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
IMO there are 2 different types of "Holding midfielders", firstly the type who when recieves the ball can spread it anywhere across the pitch with lovely passes and is very creative, example; Andrea Pirlo. I think Ireland have some players who are like this (just not brilliant)
Then theres the type who will get stuck in, win the ball in the tackle, the opposition will fear him, then gives the ball to his midfield partner to go forward. These type of players offer a real protection to the back 4. Example; Genaro Gattuso. This is something Ireland havnt really had since Roy Keane and have missed alot I think. If I was in charge, this is the type of player I would want in my team. I think this is what Ireland needs, yet lacks.