The best Irish international you've seen play

the fact they've Mick not Roy says it all for me. Wouldnt disagree to both on it, but Mick and roy sums up that ****in "organisation"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

True to an extent, especially when Given wasn't even our number one at the start of that campaign, but all of Keane's good work would have counted for nowt if it wasn't for Given against Iran.

If we didn't have Given I've no doubt Kiely would have been one of our best keepers ever, but he was unlucky. As you say "at the time" there was little between them but Given just keeps improving in my opinion. We missed him badly in the matches subsequent to the German game and he kept us in it with really good saves against both wales & Slovakia.

---

agree that given has kept improving...but sure hes had lots of practice at newcastle...think people forget how good kiely was tho..really only missed out at the time cause either given was in possesion or was born in ireland.

has o dea played for ireland?

oh and Pat Jennings, Norman Whiteside and George Best were pretty good Irish Internationals.........(that was a freebie Ealing Green!;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

has o dea played for ireland?

---

Not at senior level. Stan wanted him for the US trip but Strachan wanted him to warm the bench (not sure if he even made it) for the SFA Cup Final.

By all accounts he's a very mature & level headed lad though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Not at senior level. Stan wanted him for the US trip but Strachan wanted him to warm the bench (not sure if he even made it) for the SFA Cup Final.

By all accounts he's a very mature & level headed lad though.

---

nope, he didn't make the bench
He picked up a hamstring strain towards the end of the season and was told to rest it over the summer, but he didn't and now isn't expected to play until the end of August.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

Or Phil Babb for that matter....made McGrath look great in '94...

---

:D
Just spluttered my drink all over the room when I read that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Houghton and Townsend rarely had poor games and usually had a major influence and presence throughout the match.

The nature of their game demanded that they Imposed themselves, they were full of intelligent running and never hid or slept through games. I remember during breaks in the play, they'd often encourage or cajole their Irish team mates for more effort.

I always thought that crop of players had a maturity and sense of responsibility during their mid to late twenties that later teams didn't have - with the exception of Roy Keane.

Perhaps part of the reason for this is that the likes of Houghton and Townsend started at small clubs and gradually established themselves at the likes of Oxford (Houghton) and Southampton, Norwich (Townsend). In summary - no egocentricity.

---

Good post about Houghton and Andy T. Razor was as influencial in the Charlton teams at his prime as Roy Keane was in the McCarthy teams (when he played or wasn't suspended).

As for Robbie Keane, BillsThoughts, tell me a more skilful striker who has played for Ireland. I know he has a lot of critics because of his hand waving etc, but he is our record scorer and a very talented footballer. Frank Stapleton was the best other centre forward I have seen for us.

Thread was called best Irish internationals....Robbie Keane is nowhere near that category. Id say even of the current crop Doyle is a better striker and given the same amount of games as Keane would probably have a better return.

Roy Keane, Paul McGrath, Shay Given, Denis Irwin..

1. McGrath
2. Keane 2. Houghton

4. Brady

Highway was one of the best, as was Lawrenson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

1. McGrath
2. Keane 2. Houghton

4. Brady

Highway was one of the best, as was Lawrenson.

---

Paddy, Heighway was a great player but not for us. I saw him play many times in a green jersey and he wasn't the same player who used to terrorise full backs for Liverpool in Division One (as it was called then).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Paddy, Heighway was a great player but not for us. I saw him play many times in a green jersey and he wasn't the same player who used to terrorise full backs for Liverpool in Division One (as it was called then).

---

Well he played great against England @ Wembley. He terrorised their defence that night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I also think soccer is going a bit like rugby union in that the physical & athletic qualities of today's teams are a step above those of the last generation.

At no point was Andy Townsend ever physically dominated, nor was Keane. Kevin Kilbane is one of our few outfield players with the physique required in a modern footballer, but he lacks the talent.

.

---

rubbish
football was harder in the olden days, much harder..........sure maybe the football players are more athletic and fit nowadays, but they are not stronger on the field mostly cause the modern game has nearly outlawed physical contact

have you ever seen Leeds Utd of the 70's.............jeez they were hard
what about paul mcgrath...........hard as nails

then you talk about Kilbane. bizarre:rolleyes:

Don't think that's what he meant..... I think the focus was more on 'Athletic' rather than 'Physical'...

The game has evovled. A large percentage players from the 70's, 80's and even early 90's plucked from then and placed into a game today may well win a few bone crunchers early on but would cough up their dinner after 60 minutes and would easily be muscled out of it for large portions of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr_peepee

Don't think that's what he meant..... I think the focus was more on 'Athletic' rather than 'Physical'...

The game has evolved. A large percentage players from the 70's, 80's and even early 90's plucked from then and placed into a game today may well win a few bone crunchers early on but would cough up their dinner after 60 minutes and would easily be muscled out of it for large portions of the game.

---

Agreed.

Although, never mind 60 minutes, they'd be sent off after 5 minutes for having the audacity to make a strong challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennocelt

rubbish
football was harder in the olden days, much harder..........sure maybe the football players are more athletic and fit nowadays, but they are not stronger on the field mostly cause the modern game has nearly outlawed physical contact

have you ever seen Leeds Utd of the 70's.............jeez they were hard
what about paul mcgrath...........hard as nails

then you talk about Kilbane. bizarre:rolleyes:

---

Just look at the height of the Germans, the Czechs, the Slovaks and the Cypriots versus the height of our players. Also look at the sheer size of the Croat team, the Aussies, the Italians and any of the African sides in the last world cup and compare it to the size of our current team, maybe Kilbane, Dunne & O'Shea excepted.

Then tell me if you still think I'm talking rubbish :)

Watching from the East Stand against the Czechs I thought that the Czech team would give Munster a run for their money in the line out!

I know football was tougher then but I was just saying that Townsend & co. were always a physical match for any opponent. Now hardly any of our players are a physical match for their opponents. Why? Because the modern successful footballer is taller & more athletic and we haven't caught up in this regard, but we have in Rugby Union.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Just look at the height of the Germans, the Czechs, the Slovaks and the Cypriots versus the height of our players. Also look at the sheer size of the Croat team, the Aussies, the Italians and any of the African sides in the last world cup and compare it to the size of our current team, maybe Kilbane, Dunne & O'Shea excepted.

Then tell me if you still think I'm talking rubbish :)

Watching from the East Stand against the Czechs I thought that the Czech team would give Munster a run for their money in the line out!

I know football was tougher then but I was just saying that Townsend & co. were always a physical match for any opponent. Now hardly any of our players are a physical match for their opponents. Why? Because the modern successful footballer is taller & more athletic and we haven't caught up in this regard, but we have in Rugby Union.

---

yeah i understand what you are saying, you mean modern players are fit and good at running all day

I think football was much better in the olden days, and would like to think that paul mcgrath and franco baresi would have any of todays footballers in their pocket, cause they had tha bit extra, which you might call skill, and could read the game perfectly even if they werent ultra fit and athletic footballers
maradona was a fat basstard, and im sure he wouldnt have any problems today either

but then the czechs in my opinion are over rated, were quite weak in the world cup

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennocelt

yeah i understand what you are saying, you mean modern players are fit and good at running all day

---

No, I actually meant that they're much bigger. Leaner but definitely bigger and the good teams' players are technically good on top of this. We're a team of shortarses by and large and anyone we have who isn't doesn't have a huge amount of skill.

Duff & Keane, for example, can hold their own against anyone due to their ability, but if you have players of their height throughout the team you'll struggle. We do and we do.

Stuttgart makes a good point about the size of our team.

Can anyone explain why we have a bunch of short arses in this current team? Are all the big strong lads at school getting sent to the gaelic/rugby teams leaving the likes of S Ireland to try his hand at football? Do we need a few more lads from the Country who should be inhaling all that clean air?!

We have always been a nation known for our size and strength yet we only have a handful of players over 6 ft. 6ft isn't even tall by modern standards for a 21st Century athlete.

Giles was midget sized (still is), he had to do it all, the best bone cruncher tackler of man and ball, playmaker, enforcer.
He had to look after himself in the game and make the play with sublime passes at the same time. As well as enforcing retribution against defenders hacking the legs off the likes of Heighway.

Colin Healy showed some flashes, once upon a time, of a type of a Giles tackle.

Given
Irwin-Lawrenson-McGrath-Whelan
Houghton-Giles-Keane-Brady
Keane-Stapleton

Subs- O'Leary, Staunton,Duff, Aldridge.

I know Ronnie's not a full back but he has to be included and played brilliantly there v Scotland away and Bulgaria at home in 87 (with McGrath at right full incidently).

With the exception of Giles the above players very nearly lined out together, only 10 years separating Lawrenson and Robbie Keane.

In 2001 Roy Keane received only two votes from international managers for World Player of the Year - you guessed it - the Dutch and Portuguese managers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stojkovic

Given
Irwin-Lawrenson-McGrath-Whelan
Houghton-Giles-Keane-Brady
Keane-Stapleton

Subs- O'Leary, Staunton,Duff, Aldridge.

In 2001 Roy Keane received only two votes from international managers for World Player of the Year - you guessed it - the Dutch and Portuguese managers.

---

what a team !!

Might prefer Tony Dunne and Shay Brennan to the two full backs. Whelan was only a stand in full back as you know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Might prefer Tony Dunne and Shay Brennan to the two full backs. Whelan was only a stand in full back as you know.

---

I know of Dunne and Brennan but I never saw them play. Otherwise Jackie Carey, Noel Cantwell and Charlie Hurley would be listed.

If Whelan goes back in midfield Im afraid Razor would be out.

Am I right in saying that Whelan is often forgotten as one of our greatest players , seldom gets a mention.

I have seen 3 seconds of Noel Cantwell in that clip against Spain 1965,
I haven't even seen that much of Charlie Hurley, "10 foot six, arse like a barn"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

I have seen 3 seconds of Noel Cantwell in that clip against Spain 1965,
I haven't even seen that much of Charlie Hurley, "10 foot six, arse like a barn"

---

Not sure on this one - Didn't Charlie Hurley and Noel Cantwell score a goal each in our 2 nil win over England at Goodison?

I think Charlie Hurley's goal was described in the press match report as "an acute lob".

I remember him interviewed about the goal and he modestly replied "The press described it as an acute lob - but I just closed my eyes an hoped for the best" :)

That 2-0 England game was 1949, before they were capped.

There is not much archive material of Ireland games <1972.
Afaik, the first game to have any prolonged footage is the '72 Irel 2 France1.
Even then it's just one B/W camera struggling hard with the Dalymount lights.
Irl 3 Soviets 0 is the first game with decent footage. In a remastering of that footage, RTE decided to a Jimmy Magee voice over commentary, rubbing out Phil Greene. Takes half the pleasure away.

I do have a very very faint memory of watching the '65 wc play off with Spain live on tv and before that listening to the commentary to the away 0-4 in the kitchen on the wireless.
The entire RTE archive clip of the 1-0 win against Spain '65 is about a minute long. Frank O'Neill takes the free kick and Iribar spills it.

The sportswriters who followed Irelands games post war would pick Charlie Hurley at Centre Half, also most I have heard talk would pick Giles as the single outstanding player to this day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

That 2-0 England game was 1949, before they were capped.

---

I was way off there :confused:. Just Wiki'd it.

Con Martin (Converted Peno 33rd Minute) and it was Peter Farrell who got the second (85th).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stojkovic

Am I right in saying that Whelan is often forgotten as one of our greatest players , seldom gets a mention.

---

You are right but it is hard to stick him in ahead of Messrs Giles, Roy Keane and Brady in midfield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stojkovic

Given
Irwin-Lawrenson-McGrath-Whelan
Houghton-Giles-Keane-Brady
Keane-Stapleton

Subs- O'Leary, Staunton,Duff, Aldridge.

---

I'd also have Givens on the subs bench instead of Aldo and Moran instead of O'Leary. Sub goal keeper Bonner .

Was Whelan ever a great player for Ireland though? Great for Liverpool, but we only got a few really good performances out of him. I remember him being booed at Milltown in the 80s, mainly because they felt he didn't turn up for Ireland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RogerMilla

what a team !!

---

Can't include giles as only saw him on video....

Given
Irwin McGrath Lawrenson Hughton

Duff Keane Townsend Brady

Keane Stapleton

Bench: Kiely, Moran, Sheridan(never got enough games), aldridge,quinn,houghton

Given
Irwin Mc Grath Moran Brennan(C)

Houghton Keane Giles


Brady

Robbie Keane Stapleton

Subs: Bonner, Dunne, O' Leary, Duff, Quinn, Staunton.:ball::ball:

Given
Irwin, McGrath, Lawrenson, Holmes
Houghton, Keane, Giles, Highway
Keane, Stapleton

Brady & Aldridge bidding for a place.

For me the best players of the last 20 years or so (which is when I started watching) are McGrath and Roy Keane - both players were consistently brilliant and inspired others around them. Behind them - in a second tier if you like - I'd have Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Pat Bonner, John Aldridge, Dennis Irwin, Kevin Sheedy and maybe Townsend.

None of the current players - including Duff, Given, and Robbie Keane - come close imho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Given
Irwin, McGrath, Lawrenson, Holmes
Houghton, Keane, Giles, Highway
Keane, Stapleton

Brady & Aldridge bidding for a place.

---

60 million Italians may disagree with Brady on the bench.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stojkovic

60 million Italians may disagree with Brady on the bench.

---

you can sing that , any italian of a certain age will mention his last penalty kick for juventus with respect. 4 years in that league when they were only aloowed one JF per team , you had to be some player to make it .

My mate lived in Italy until March this year. He says that in the Italian media to this day if a young player shows real promise they ask if he could be the new Liam Brady. Says it all when you consider how many brilliant midfielders have played in that league.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My mate lived in Italy until March this year. He says that in the Italian media to this day if a young player shows real promise they ask if he could be the new Liam Brady. Says it all when you consider how many brilliant midfielders have played in that league.

---

He played there for seven years at Juve, Samp, Inter and Ascoli.

How many foreign players can you think of who spent seven years in Serie A, not many.

I spoke to loads of Samp fans at the European Cup Final in 92 and they idolised Brady. Eight years after he left them !!