Cork City FC Receive "Severe Warning" from Disciplinary Commission

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Originally Posted by osarusan

That is a pathetic post.

point out where i said or implied that.

Explain to me how you logically drew the conclusion that I meant that.

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So are you saying that if it comes to a choice between me and my young child, and some clown who thinks it is cool to shout abuse, you believe I should allow him to do what he wants, and just avoid him. Do you really think that actually solves the problem?

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If the guy is a clown for giving Ryan dogs over his drug abuse it is implied that the abuse is a worse offence than the drugs.
What is stupid is people wanting to destroy the atmosphere at games. Are bohs fans supposed to stop singing about Rovers being homeless or Pats being Junkies in case some prude gets offended? Are Rovers and Pats supposed to stop singing songs slagging us off? I'd be dissapointed if they did. This Helen Lovejoyism has no place at football grounds. The banter, the slagging has always been part of the game - nay sport and society, its part of what makes us human and its bloody great. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed - racism, the type of abuse Simon Webb got etc. but slagging a guy for getting caught red handed doing drugs etc. is fair game.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

This Helen Lovejoyism has no place at football grounds.

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That is a class way of describing it!:D

are we assumming that the warning was entirly for the ryan slagging or was there something else ..

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Originally Posted by passerrby

are we assumming that the warning was entirly for the ryan slagging or was there something else ..

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It was for the Ryan slagging. No one would have paid any attention to it only for McDonnell trying to make capital over what happened to Webb.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

If the guy is a clown for giving Ryan dogs over his drug abuse it is implied that the abuse is a worse offence than the drugs.

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So you feel that the guy who was shouting was driven by a desire to make Ryan see the error of his ways, and he felt the best and most efficient way of doing this was to abuse him during a football game.

If this is the conclusion you drew......why did you post this -

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

So drug abuse is ok then?

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My point regarding the abuse of Ryan, and the reasons given for it on this thread are this-

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Originally Posted by osarusan

My point is that I dont think we can say that abusing him over a wall on a football field is going to achieve any social reform of our morals, or perform a valuable service to the community.

And I am reasonably sure that this was not in the minds of those who shouted the abuse.

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And on a general note -
Don't get me wrong, I dont want to kill the atmosphere at games (perhaps we have different views on what is acceptable "banter - so be it). My point is that this kind of abuse will deter some (not all, but some) fans from coming, or coming a second time, especially those fans with kids, and these kids are the future supporters we need. We are not in the position of clubs in other countries to be able to turn people away if they dont like it, confident that others will fill their place.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

We are not in the position of clubs in other countries to be able to turn people away if they dont like it, confident that others will fill their place.

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Thats why we should have family sections. You are never going to please everyone. When I started going to LOI games, what got me coming back again and again was the atmosphere. I think my third or fourth game was against rovers and the atmosphere at that just sealed the deal for me. I've brought mates who live in England and attend the odd premiership game to games against Rovers, Shels, the Drogs and Pats and they were so impressed with the atmosphere that any time they come over the first question they ask is "are we going to a game?"

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

What is stupid is people wanting to destroy the atmosphere at games. Are bohs fans supposed to stop singing about Rovers being homeless or Pats being Junkies in case some prude gets offended? Are Rovers and Pats supposed to stop singing songs slagging us off? I'd be dissapointed if they did. This Helen Lovejoyism has no place at football grounds. The banter, the slagging has always been part of the game - nay sport and society, its part of what makes us human and its bloody great. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed - racism, the type of abuse Simon Webb got etc. but slagging a guy for getting caught red handed doing drugs etc. is fair game.

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Must agree here too. Shouting abuse, a bit of healthy slagging, or popping a vessel in your head at the ref is part and parcel of the game. Osarusan you say it doesn't have to be, but that in turn is a trivial statement, which can be levelled at pretty much all aspects of the game. We don't have to have grass either. Or 'keepers. Or goalposts even. Or 11 a side. Or kicking the ball. Whatever someone takes against.
The fact is that it is there, it has always been there, and within certain boundaries it always should be there, and I personally would rather a handful of people who've kids with sensitive ears (or more likely, kids with ears that the parents feel need over-protection) were not trying to stop me calling the referee a useless w*nker if he is being one. And I don't sit with hardcore supporters, so I don't know where ye are going to go! :D

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

If the guy is a clown for giving Ryan dogs over his drug abuse it is implied that the abuse is a worse offence than the drugs
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From which you inferred that I condoned drug abuse?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

So you feel that the guy who was shouting was driven by a desire to make Ryan see the error of his ways, and he felt the best and most efficient way of doing this was to abuse him during a football game.

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I'd appreciate a reply.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Thats why we should have family sections. You are never going to please everyone. When I started going to LOI games, what got me coming back again and again was the atmosphere. I think my third or fourth game was against rovers and the atmosphere at that just sealed the deal for me. I've brought mates who live in England and attend the odd premiership game to games against Rovers, Shels, the Drogs and Pats and they were so impressed with the atmosphere that any time they come over the first question they ask is "are we going to a game?"

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You make it sound like a ban on abuse would leave the fans with nothing to say.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I'd appreciate a reply.

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Its been said over and over in this thread, its not a matter of making Ryan see the error of his ways more an example to set to the kids i.e. do this and you are going to be in for some real stick.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

You make it sound like a ban on abuse would leave the fans with nothing to say

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It would certainly cut out a lot of the "wittier" songs on the terraces.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

more an example to set to the kids i.e. do this and you are going to be in for some real stick.

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Do you really believe that this is why he got the abuse? To set a good example to kids? Not just to amuse the person shouting, or to try and disrupt his (Ryan's) concentration?

remember once hearing a rovers fan shout "kellys carpets out out out" when asked why said he was againist all rug dealers

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Originally Posted by passerrby

remember once hearing a rovers fan shout "kellys carpets out out out" when asked why said he was againist all rug dealers

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:D very good!

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Originally Posted by passerrby

remember once hearing a rovers fan shout "kellys carpets out out out" when asked why said he was againist all rug dealers

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:D Great stuff!

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Do you really believe that this is why he got the abuse? To set a good example to kids? Not just to amuse the person shouting, or to try and disrupt his (Ryan's) concantration?

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No more of a byproduct of the guy(s) trying to disrupt Ryan's concentration. Getting back to the matter at hand, what exactly is offensive about calling a footballer who failed a drug test "junkie" or chanting "Barry, give us a line"?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Do you really believe that this is why he got the abuse? To set a good example to kids? Not just to amuse the person shouting, or to try and disrupt his (Ryan's) concantration?

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those are exactly the reasons. and arguably, they both worked. thats not to say however, that "protecting" ryan like this doesn't stop us from indirectly pointing out that footballers in a professional league should probably not use drugs lest they be ridiculed.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

So drug abuse is ok then?

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Who said anything about him abusing the drugs?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Who said anything about him abusing the drugs?

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Oh right, he was using cocaine responsibly?

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Originally Posted by passerrby

remember once hearing a rovers fan shout "kellys carpets out out out" when asked why said he was againist all rug dealers

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:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Getting back to the matter at hand, what exactly is offensive about calling a footballer who failed a drug test "junkie" or chanting "Barry, give us a line"?

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You don't think it is in any way offensive?

I do, as I don't think anybody, footballer or otherwise, should have to hear it.

Would you find it inoffensive if it happened to somebody who is not a footballer?

And on a more general level, the kind of comments which are generally considered "banter" - questioning of sexual ability/preference, parental species, masturbation tendencies etc - do find them inoffensive in the context in which they are said?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

those are exactly the reasons. and arguably, they both worked. thats not to say however, that "protecting" ryan like this doesn't stop us from indirectly pointing out that footballers in a professional league should probably not use drugs lest they be ridiculed.

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Which reasons are you talking about? The attempts to set an example for kids, or the amusement of the person shouting, or the interruption of his concentration?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

masturbation tendencies etc - do find them inoffensive in the context in which they are said?

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there you go again knocking my hobbies

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Originally Posted by osarusan

You don't think it is in any way offensive?

I do, as I don't think anybody, footballer or otherwise, should have to hear it.

Would you find it inoffensive if it happened to somebody who is not a footballer?

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Clearly I don't think its offensive. If I was suspended from work for failing a drug test or for some other misdemeanor I would expect a serious slagging when I got back.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

And on a more general level, the kind of comments which are generally considered "banter" - questioning of sexual ability/preference, parental species, masturbation tendencies etc - do find them inoffensive in the context in which they are said?

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Homophobia and sexism I class with racism (I wouldn't count the washed up transsexual song as homophobia as its the washed up bit that is the point of slagging! :D )
Parental species? I'm not sure what you mean.
All the other stuff you mentioned fair game in my book.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Which reasons are you talking about? The attempts to set an example for kids, or the amusement of the person shouting, or the interruption of his concentration?

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the amusement and the concentration. sure he was joining in at one point, we must have amused HIM and broken his concentration.

at every game ive ever been at at turner's cross, we've 'abused' the keeper in some way, even if we've never heard of him by calling him dodgy and trying to put him off kick outs. Is "Dodgy keeper" acceptable?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

the amusement and the concentration. sure he was joining in at one point, we must have amused HIM and broken his concentration.

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Fair enough, thats an honest answer.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

at every game ive ever been at at turner's cross, we've 'abused' the keeper in some way, even if we've never heard of him by calling him dodgy and trying to put him off kick outs. Is "Dodgy keeper" acceptable?

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Again, fair enough, if you don't have a problem with it. Nothing wrong with "dodgy keeper", but "dodgy keeper, your mother is a f##king sl#t", i do have a problem with.

My main arguement is that people try to justify the abuse in Ryans case with the line that they are actually doing it to set a good example for kids. This is think is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

but "dodgy keeper, your mother is a f##king sl#t", i do have a problem with.

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Who said that?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Who said that?

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It is an example, an example i heard at a game in Galway about 10 years ago (minus the "dodgey keeper" part).

I've heard similar things at many grounds. I'd guess most people have.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

My main arguement is that people try to justify the abuse in Ryans case with the line that they are actually doing it to set a good example for kids. This is think is nonsense.

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well i dont think anyone claimed we took it upon ourselves to start a war on drugs, but you must admit seeing someone ridiculed for his actions could influence some young fella not to try it.

at the end of this, our love/hate relationship with barry ryan will go on and the real vitriolic abuse will be aimed at a sufferer of the medical condition alopecia whose behaviour towards our fans, subsequent attempts to mask his teams defeat and the media/FAI's quickstep to attempt to cover up the damage he did to our and our league's reptutation, will surely be a less light hearted topic of argument than 'barry and charlie are best of friends.'

Ridiculous "decision" by the FAI. I am all for cracking down on clubs for not controlling their fans but what the f*** does severe warning mean anyway?

I haven't heard Barry Ryan complain or any Pats fan complain about this before. Barry has been on the receiving end of this for years & takes in good humoured way with a few gestures himself.

Will Bohs also be severely warned for the same chant heard clearly on tv last Monday?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by sligoman

As someone said, football is for football fans and football fans shout abuse. It's part of the game. People are paying good money to watch their team play and abusing opposition players is all part of the banter.

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I don't accept the banter excuse - it is an excuse and always has been - on Foot.ie and I don't accept it in the ground either. You call it banter, I call it abuse, and in my opinion the people that do it are ignorant knuckle draggers.

As osuran said, shouting "dodgy keeper" is one thing, calling people and their families names is another. Namecalling is for primary schools. They should try adult humour. Age, shoe size, etc.

adam

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Originally Posted by pete

what the f*** does severe warning mean anyway?

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Shels got loads of them down through the years so I presume you'll eventually be demoted to the First Division if you keep it up...

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The whole thing cheapens any condemnation of the Webb affair too.

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I think that this is an important point. The reaction to this is over the top.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I brought my kid to a City match when he was 8 and he loved it, but we could both have done without the knackers shouting abuse at people in our ears. Why should he put up with that crap?

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You were being yelled at? Where were the stewards?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

As osuran said, shouting "dodgy keeper" is one thing, calling people and their families names is another.

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Thats not what this debate is about. Its about Barry Ryan, drug use and getting some slagging for it.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I don't accept the banter excuse - it is an excuse and always has been - on Foot.ie and I don't accept it in the ground either.

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Its all very well for you not accepting it on foot.ie, its your website. When it comes to football grounds I think thats for football fans to decide.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Namecalling is for primary schools. They should try adult humour. Age, shoe size, etc.

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how would you define adult humour?

the reason, the sole reason, we sing or shout at football games is to produce an atmosphere, not to impress anyone. Normally, that atmosphere attempts to be both supportive of our own team and distracting or off-putting for the opposition. As fans we will go pretty far to do both, be it breaking laws with respect to firework safety, or 'personal abuse'. Clearly there are limits to this, which have been overstepped a handful of times in my recollection of eircom league soccer - simon webb being the obvious example. However, the limits are pretty self imposed and the football following community would 'police' the situation, such as by demanding action in the Webb case. Look around though, not only are people dismissing 'Junkie Keeper' as within those limits, but they are actively continuing the chant themselves, without further comment or theatrics by the follically-challenged one.

I'd be interested to know people's thoughts on the abuse of a keeper the week after the Pat's game. No, not the ironic 'Junkie Keeper' chants directed at Mick Devine but the 'Ginger Keeper' chants at the other lad. Surely this is worse, mocking a genetic, hereditary condition of which the lad has little or no control over, rather than 'Junkie Keeper' reminding Mr Ryan of his poor personal choices of the past. I know which one I'd be more afraid of explaining to a son - Gingers can be violent little feckers when called out on the schoolyard!

As long as the abuse isn't homophobic, racist or something equally as vile than I don't see the problem, inslting a player over hair colour/length, past drug abuse, former employers, past misdemeanors against your club is part and parcel of football

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Normally, that atmosphere attempts to be both supportive of our own team

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Of course.

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and distracting or off-putting for the opposition

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I've never agreed with this. Calling it cheating is probably OTT, but I think it's very 'unsportsmanlike'; for want of a better phrase.

As has been said before, how would you like some neanderthal screaming abuse at you while you're trying to do your job?

Much of it lies and overexaggeration, I might add...

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I've never agreed with this. Calling it cheating is probably OTT, but it's very 'unsportsmanlike' imho, for want of a better phrase.

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Unsportsmanlike or not, its very much a race to the bottom isn't it? It started somewhere and the advantages can be clearly seen. To ignore this part of the game would be to give a little advantage to the competition who won't be so P.C. No football fan would contemplate doing that surely.

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As has been said before, how would you like some neanderthal screaming abuse at you while you're trying to do your job?

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I work in tech support. :)

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Much of it lies and overexaggeration, I might add...

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Call it farcical comedy. We're aware not every Dubliner is a Jackeen Junkie and Owen Heary probably does have a birth certificate.

I'm very much a "game should be on the pitch" and "it's just a game" person, as you know. I don't think I need to restate my thoughts on the intelligence of the game as it's become.

People often wonder why a guy who's "not into football" - their words, not mine - would want to run a site like Foot.ie -- there's your answer. I'd probably be a hell of a lot more into it if it wasn't for the idiocy of the sport off the pitch.

adam

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Originally Posted by osarusan

My main arguement is that people try to justify the abuse in Ryans case with the line that they are actually doing it to set a good example for kids. This is think is nonsense.

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I'll take it your referring to me. To start, I know that the crowd giving out the abuse have no interest of setting an example to kids.

I said that if Ryan was stupid enough to take drugs, he should take his oil as they say in Derry. He should get all the stick possible.

I was responding to the fact that kids shouldn't hear such things at games, arguing the point that Ryan being vilified actually may have a positive effect on kids at the games, in that we collectively think that drug taking is irresponsible and sending out the message that drug taking is wrong.

In this case I don't think it is unreasonable for the crowds to give him a bit of abuse in front of kids as believe it will send out the correct message. Young people are fully influenced by their peers and the young fellow at a game hearing the abuse may think twice.

If this is how you react to some of the stuff here, count yourselves you dont live in some of the other big football countries.

Kids would not even have understood the humour in the City chants towards Barry Ryan. Sure he has even made hand to nose gestures himself in the past in reply.

Is singing "Dessie & Richie, different fathers..." (they are twins) abusive?

I would be surprised if any player was offended by eL chants. Its a lot worse when you have an individual shouting abuse at a particular player.

I agree with the comment re:Webb as its over reaction belittles the abuse he got.

This is LOI football & not golf. If you took away the little atmosphere at our inadequate grounds & varying quality of football what would be left? If you want sportsmanship what sport on tv.

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Originally Posted by pete

Kids would not even have understood the humour in the City chants towards Barry Ryan. Sure he has even made hand to nose gestures himself in the past in reply.

Is singing "Dessie & Richie, different fathers..." (they are twins) abusive?

I would be surprised if any player was offended by eL chants. Its a lot worse when you have an individual shouting abuse at a particular player.

I agree with the comment re:Webb as its over reaction belittles the abuse he got.

This is LOI football & not golf. If you took away the little atmosphere at our inadequate grounds & varying quality of football what would be left? If you want sportsmanship what sport on tv.

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They deffo won't be happy with that:p