Our best XI?

true but i don't agree with ireland dropping back beside carsley. i think it has to be either keane or ireland in this formation - assuming doyle plays. as we saw on sat ireland can not do the wide mans job and we need 2 of duff, mcgeady or hunt to play as wingers. the wingers need to be pacy, skillful and willing to support the attacker. the 2 deep midfielders have to be good defensively and i thought carsley and to a lesser extent kilbane were effective yesterday. possibly with the return of both joey o'brien and steven reid one of these will be a better partner for carsley. leaving keane/ireland behind doyle

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I said before these 2 games that we should go for a 4 5 1 as it covers up our lack of players in central midfield. I dont think we have a central midfield pairing at the moment that can play together. Carsley is half a top class midfielder and Stephen Ireland is another half of that top class midfielder. As a result we need somebody in there beside them. On Saturday it was Douglas and last night it was Kilbane. Both tireless workers who are limited in their ability to keep the ball.

In future we have a few options. We could replace these guys with Stephen Reid or Andy Reid or even drop Keane back to where Ireland plays and put Ireland beside Carsley.

What is clear is that defensively this formation suits and we have looked very solid over the last 2 games. I think we should play Robbie Keane in the position where Ireland plays as he played here against Sweden and was top class. It is where he plays for Spurs a lot of the time and it suits his tendancy to go look for the ball in different areas of the pitch.

Hunt and Duff should start on the wings and the back four cannot be changed as it has performed very well over the last 2 games.

All in all we look like we have a game plan now and I think the 4 5 1 suits us and it has a flexibilty to it that suits substitutes coming into the game in a number of positions. So far this formation has been used against Sweden Czech Rep, Wales and Slovakia. 3 wins and 1 draw. So I think we should pursue this for future games.

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I agree, said much the same meself. I'd start with Carsley and Steven Reid with one other and the choices there are Stephen Ireland, Andy Reid and Robbie Keane. I'm not sure if Keane should just stroll back in as he is really more of a forward than a midfielder and Ireland is a more functional player but this set up gives us plenty of options and sets us up to get the best out of our wide players Duff, Hunt and McGeady with A.Reid and S.Quinn as other options there.

Would be very careful about playing 4-5-1. In fairness the Slovakia coach was very slow last night with his tactics. Every man and his dog knew we would play 4-5-1 yet he only sorted his team out at half time. This led to them having the better of the second half but at that stage it was too late

I'd agree with that. Depending on the opposition we could play Keane or an out-and-out midfielder in that position according to the kind of game we're expecting.

I hate 4-5-1. We can't keep the ball up front and defend too deep. We should be defending from the front and we almost paid for it in the 2nd half with the midfield falling back on the defence.

With McGeady (Hunt) and Duff on the wings and two front men of the quality of Doyle and Keane up front, we should be attacking teams. Admittedly we have a poor central midfield but the return of at least one Reid should strenghten us in that department. A number of good crosses went in to the box but the absence of the 2nd striker at the end of them was notable.

Where that leaves Ireland I am not sure.

Was pleased with the back 4, even O'Shea, in both games.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I said before these 2 games that we should go for a 4 5 1 as it covers up our lack of players in central midfield.

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I agree totally with this. A 4-5-1 with 2 natural wingers and just 1 natural striker is the way to go. Look at Northern Ireland.

Keane must be dropped for good. His performances for Ireland and for his club leave a lot to be desired. Until his injury Doyle has been one of the best all round strikers in England's top division. Also, I think the team plays better without Keane in it. He wastes an awful lot of possession and he drops way too deep for a striker. Drop Kilbane for Hunt and swap the full backs and that is as good as it will get for Ireland although the incompetency of the manager still means Ireland will not qualify for anything.

The 4-5-1 system's advantages can be seen with the belfast team who are top oof their group ahead of Sweden, Denmark, Spain etc. If thats not proof nothing is. Its obvious what they do. Once they loose the ball they get everyone behind the ball. So when you don't have the ball the opposition have to produce something special to break you down. When you break you have the space to do so. All you need is a speedy striker who only needs his speed and a good finish. The problem is of course that if the striker stops scoring due to out of form the team stops scoring. Only 1 player in the team will score - the striker. :ball:

We did defend from the front last night Doyle put them under pressure and Ireland never gave their sitting player a chance. Ireland tired and was carrying and knock and when we made the change to put Mc Geady there he did the same and Long also added energy to the team when Doyle ran out of steam. We have got our best results and performances with the 4 5 1 and have not been cut open whereas with 4 4 2 we dont have 2 central midfield players who are good enough to paly against decent teams.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I hate 4-5-1. We can't keep the ball up front and defend too deep.

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1. You should be in control of midfield protecting your back four and holding more possession.

2. You don't need to keep the ball up front. You counter attack at speed. You will produce less scoring chances but more quality scoring opportunities.

3. You will concede very very few goals using the system. It is usually quite boring to watch but its a good system for an inferior side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

We have got our best results and performances with the 4 5 1 and have not been cut open whereas with 4 4 2 we dont have 2 central midfield players who are good enough to paly against decent teams.

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Exactly. But it means dropping robbie keane as he does not suit this system. I agree with that anyway but half the country does not and Stan seems to think the sun shines out his backside. IMO his reputation is on past goals scored for Ireland. He has failed to produce at both club level and international level in recent years.

You just don't know what to get with Stan. The formation, positions, selections etc change not only every single match but also a number of times during the match. I don't see this team improving much until a settled structure and sytem are implemented.

I think the system can suit Keane but he must play where Ireland played last night. Keane is not a striker. He is a link man. This system could get the best out of Keane but he must play in his right position. Just look at Shane Horgan in rugby, out in the wing, top class, put him in the centre, he is rubbish. The same with Keane, he should not play the lone striker role. Keane has class and it is up to him and the manager to get the best out of his talents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I hate 4-5-1. We can't keep the ball up front and defend too deep. We should be defending from the front and we almost paid for it in the 2nd half with the midfield falling back on the defence.

With McGeady (Hunt) and Duff on the wings and two front men of the quality of Doyle and Keane up front, we should be attacking teams. Admittedly we have a poor central midfield but the return of at least one Reid should strenghten us in that department. A number of good crosses went in to the box but the absence of the 2nd striker at the end of them was notable.

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in fairness to staunton i reckon that the reason we have played the 4-5-1 is due to the lack of a midfielder to play along side carsley.

people get bogged down in formations. with keane playing behing doyle in a 4-5-1 when we have possession he can slot along side him becoming a 4-4-2. it is about having the personal to adapt and make the correct moves and runs. formations are not and should not be as rigid as people think.

although i agree with you the midfield dropped way too deep in the second half and invited them onto us i think this is the individual players doing and not the formations fault. i remember when we played portugal at landsdowne and we were doing the same. roy keane won the ball and ran 60 yards with the ball, stopped and turned as if to invite the other players to come up and join him. that is individual players taking the responsibility of bringing out the defenders and midfielders and not just blindly clearing the ball up the pitch when no-one is up there.

last night there were times when we got the ball in wide positions, as you said, and had only one or even no players in the box. here the midfielders have to make the runs into the box to support the attacker. again it is about the players knowing what is required of them in the system and not just thinking i am a third midfielder and will stay in midfield.

i would have no problem with the following team come september - fitness and form permitting - especially as the 2 games are away against decent teams:

......................given...................

finnan....mcshane....dunne...o'shea

............carsley........s.reid............

mcgeady...............................duff
......................keane..................
......................doyle..................

you can swap mcgeady with hunt and i'm still happy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I hate 4-5-1. We can't keep the ball up front and defend too deep. We should be defending from the front and we almost paid for it in the 2nd half with the midfield falling back on the defence.

With McGeady (Hunt) and Duff on the wings and two front men of the quality of Doyle and Keane up front, we should be attacking teams. Admittedly we have a poor central midfield but the return of at least one Reid should strenghten us in that department. A number of good crosses went in to the box but the absence of the 2nd striker at the end of them was notable.

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cant understand that. when robbie plays in a 442 its effectively a 451. i'd be happy to see him occupy ireland's role and be the missing link in the delightful full back - defensive midfielder - attacking midfielder - striker/winger passing movement that will work for us

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

i would have no problem with the following team come september - fitness and form permitting - especially as the 2 games are away against decent teams:

......................given...................

finnan....mcshane....dunne...o'shea

............carsley........s.reid............

mcgeady...............................duff
......................keane..................
......................doyle..................

you can swap mcgeady with hunt and i'm still happy

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Yup, I'd agree with that, I think S. Reid (when available) would slot in nicely beside Carsley in that formation. Would deffo add a bit of steel to the midfield. And on the plus side, as shown last night, we actually have a few options from the bench...Hunt, Long, Stokes, Ireland, A. Reid could all slot in nicely into that system...

To those advocates of 442, I'll just point your attention nicely in the direction of Nicosia and Rimini and say no more....

it is the old chicken and egg scenario. get players to play your perfered system (no problem at club level where you can buy players) or get a system that suits your players (more common at international level). we do not have 2 CM's who are capable enough for a 4-4-2 so i reckon the system to suit our players is what is needed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

it is the old chicken and egg scenario. get players to play your perfered system (no problem at club level where you can buy players) or get a system that suits your players (more common at international level). we do not have 2 CM's who are capable enough for a 4-4-2 so i reckon the system to suit our players is what is needed

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Spot on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

i would have no problem with the following team come september - fitness and form permitting - especially as the 2 games are away against decent teams:

......................given...................

finnan....mcshane....dunne...o'shea

............carsley........s.reid............

mcgeady...............................duff
......................keane..................
......................doyle..................

you can swap mcgeady with hunt and i'm still happy

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Thats a 4-4-2.

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Thats a 4-4-2.

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Not with the way Keane plays it isn't. You can either ask him to play off Doyle or drop deeper to pick things up off the midfield which is what he'll do if left to his own devices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Thats a 4-4-2.

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read my post above about formations and the ridgidness (is that a word?) of them. it is actually neither 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 but a 4-4-1-1 if you are being pedantic. instead of both strikers playing beside each other you have one behind the other. providing a link between midfield and attack. imo it is a position more suitable to keanes & s.irelands game.

if you play this system you can easily convert to a 3-4-1-2 formation if chasing a game or against a weaker opposition. the midfielders have the same roles and therefore it doesn't disrupt the team too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

Not with the way Keane plays it isn't. You can either ask him to play off Doyle or drop deeper to pick things up off the midfield which is what he'll do if left to his own devices.

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If hes left to his own devices he wil drop deep get a pass dribble a little before wasting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

read my post above about formations and the ridgidness (is that a word?) of them. it is actually neither 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 but a 4-4-1-1 if you are being pedantic. instead of both strikers playing beside each other you have one behind the other. providing a link between midfield and attack. imo it is a position more suitable to keanes & s.irelands game.

if you play this system you can easily convert to a 3-4-1-2 formation if chasing a game or against a weaker opposition. the midfielders have the same roles and therefore it doesn't disrupt the team too much.

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Errr.....there are 11 players on a soccer team.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Errr.....there are 11 players on a soccer team.

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Sorry whats your point? The systems he's named all have the 10 outfield players unless you're looking for him to include the keeper but I'd have thought that goes without saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

After those 2 games, with every player fit and available what do you think is our best team? I'd go with a similar formation to tonight...

--------------Given----------------
Finnan---Dunne---McShane---OShea
--------------Carsley--------------
---------A.Reid-----S.Reid---------
----Keane-----------------Duff----
---------------Doyle---------------

The back 5 picks itself I think.

atm there's no competition with Carsley for the holding role.

Steven Reid replaces Kilbane in tonights team. He's an excellent box to box player when given a run of games. Played very well against Sweden in Stans first match.

Andy Reid replaces Ireland. I have to say, Ireland impressed me tonight. One turn when McGeady passed it to him was excellent. He was full of confidence and did well. I just think Reid is the better player at the moment and has much more of an influence on games. When he plays the play goes through him and he has a fantastic football brain to link up play.

Keane would taking McGeady's place tonight. I think Keane would excel here. He basically plays there anyway for us but it'd be taking the pressure of his shoulders to score. He'd be playing with his head to goal rather than his back to goal and more likely to actually get a few shots off.

Duff obviously picks himself while Doyle was top class tonight as the lone striker.

I have to say, the look of that team really excites me. :) Maybe I'm overestimating the difference the 2 Reid's will make but I just think they're the type of players we badly miss.

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Not really sure what Keane is doing on the right, Id put Hunt in there.

Everything else looks very good except O' Shea, we need to find a natural left back to get rid of O Shea for good.

Given

Finnan McShane O'Shea Harte

McGeady Ireland ????? Hunt

Doyle Ward

Quote:

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Errr.....there are 11 players on a soccer team.

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POTM :confused: :o ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

Given

Finnan McShane O'Shea Harte

McGeady Ireland ????? Hunt

Doyle Ward

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What

The player who made it for us last night was Duff. If he was 20 we'd all be raving about him. Instead you pick McGeady and force Hunt onto his non-preferred side.

No Dunne? just so you can pick Harte. This is madness. I dont think Dunne was really MOTM last night (I'd have picked Duff) but he is solid and experienced.

You'll notice I havent mentioned Ward ahead of Robbie, words escape me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

What

The player who made it for us last night was Duff. If he was 20 we'd all be raving about him. Instead you pick McGeady and force Hunt onto his non-preferred side.

No Dunne? just so you can pick Harte. This is madness. I dont think Dunne was really MOTM last night (I'd have picked Duff) but he is solid and experienced.

You'll notice I havent mentioned Ward ahead of Robbie, words escape me

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1. Duff played well last night ill give him that, but hes not the player he was, people still think hes as good as he was a couple of years ago.

2. Dunne is mistake prone and akward, McShane and O'Shea are far better, and wheather you like him or not Ian Harte set pieces are reason to pick him alone.

3. Ward would offer far more than keane, hes big, powerful, got pace, good in the air and actually knows where the goal is
id have several players (O'Donovan, Doyle, Long, Duff, even Lee Trundle) instead of keane.

'robbie' is overated beyond belief, and as for being captain, someone like Shane Long would have more leadership

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

After those 2 games, with every player fit and available what do you think is our best team? I'd go with a similar formation to tonight...

--------------Given----------------
Finnan---Dunne---McShane---OShea
--------------Carsley--------------
---------A.Reid-----S.Reid---------
----Keane-----------------Duff----
---------------Doyle---------------

.

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If that was the team we played against Germany or the Czechs i wouldnt be too disappointed but I dont know about sticking keane as a wide striker/winger, considering he is our record goal scorer and has been a consistent scorer in the premiership, i think he needs to be central, just behind Doyle, its his favoured position. I also think Graham Kavanagh has more to offer as a holding player, hes much more influential than Carsley. But yeh, our back 5 now picks itself. Id put Stephen Reid straight in at midfield. If there was one thing i noticed about the last 2 games its how badly we faded in central midfield, S Reid would give us the legs.

--------------Given----------------
Finnan---Dunne---McShane---OShea
---------Kavanagh-----S.Reid---------
A.Reid---------Keane-----------Duff
---------------Doyle---------------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

1. Duff played well last night ill give him that, but hes not the player he was, people still think hes as good as he was a couple of years ago.

2. Dunne is mistake prone and akward, McShane and O'Shea are far better, and wheather you like him or not Ian Harte set pieces are reason to pick him alone.

3. Ward would offer far more than keane, hes big, powerful, got pace, good in the air and actually knows where the goal is
id have several players (O'Donovan, Doyle, Long, Duff, even Lee Trundle) instead of keane.

'robbie' is overated beyond belief, and as for being captain, someone like Shane Long would have more leadership

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Robbie does know where the goal is. I know that cos hes our recod scorer. You may well be the only person in the world (outside the trundle house) who believes Lee Trundle is better than Robbie Keane.

This is an example of bandwagon jumping. Let's get rid of players we're bored with and replace them with flavour of the months. McGeady has never played as well for Ireland as Duff did last night, even ignoring Duff's older performances.

Oh and finally, we've found someone who thinks John O'Shea is less error prone than Richard Dunne!

--------------Given----------------
Finnan---Dunne---McShane---OShea
---------Carsley-----S.Reid---------
Hunt---------Keane-----------Duff
---------------Doyle---------------


Keane would be classed as a striker but play in the hole as it were. Andy Reid would slot in somewhere were he to stay fit. Feel bad about omitting S Ireland after his recent displays....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

1. Duff played well last night ill give him that, but hes not the player he was, people still think hes as good as he was a couple of years ago.

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If you look through the recent history on this forum, you'll find very few people who think he's as good as he was a few years ago, but the Slovakia game was the best I've seen from him in a long time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

2. Dunne is mistake prone and akward, McShane and O'Shea are far better, and wheather you like him or not Ian Harte set pieces are reason to pick him alone.

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I lost count of the amount of times Dunne cleared the ball last night, and has forged a strong partnership with McShane, in 4 games they've conceded 1 goal. We haven't had a record like that since Cunningham and O'Brien were starting. Duff, Ireland and even Dunne all take good free kicks - Duff is joint second in the list of assists in the qualifiers so far: http://www.uefa.com/competitions/eur...ics/index.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

3. Ward would offer far more than keane, hes big, powerful, got pace, good in the air and actually knows where the goal is
id have several players (O'Donovan, Doyle, Long, Duff, even Lee Trundle) instead of keane.

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Ward has not proven himself at any level higher than Championship, and playing him alongside Doyle would effectively be playing the same style of target man, which does not work.
Of the players you've listed, only Doyle would be ahead of Keane, at even then only on recent form.
O'Donovan is one for the future, but with the current crop he could find it hard to get into the starting XI
Long is the current impact substitute, but I don't see him starting
Duff is not a striker. End of story
Lee Trundle didn't get into the squad when he was in his best form. By his own admission he's not playing as well, or scoring as many, and has probably missed his chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by half_full

'robbie' is overated beyond belief, and as for being captain, someone like Shane Long would have more leadership

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Yes, a 20 year old substitute would have more leadership than a Premiership captain.

Personally I think you're on the wind up. Please do it somewhere else.

-----------------Given----------------
Finnan----McShane---Dunne----O'Shea
--------------Carsley-----------------
McGeady--------Ireland-----------Duff
--------------Keane------------------
-------------Doyle-------------------

I think Keane would prosper more in a deeper role facing the play as opposed to having his back to the goal. Doyle is a natural leader of the line and holds the ball up very well. I could see him linking up well with Keane, bring him into the play through bursts from midfield. Back four seem comfortable but may need a bit more cover from Carsley sitting in front of them. Duff and McGeady to provide pace and width on the break with Ireland and Keane coming through the middle. Given is, well just Given...best in the business.

Your team looks good but the problem is that it will not be tried and tested before September. Sicknote Reid and Fat Reid (im jokin) wont be fit for the trip to the US and I would like to think that our 'first XI' will start against Denmark in August.

The current team/squad seem to have jelled over the last week and will need to be fine tuned for September. Try Stephen Kelly at left full and O'Shea in for Kilbane. Robbie (without the armband) in for Ireland and if he responses well fine, if not, leave Ireland playing behind Doyle.

But that said, with two fit and injury free Reids, we do have a stronger squad, obviously.