Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
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Doyle a) Would not have gone for anything near 1 million with or without an escape clause and b) only had such an escape clause because Cork probably thought that no one would pay over the odds to get him.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I actually think Johnson is very underrated. He certainly was before joining Everton anyway. All his peno's, bar 1 or 2, were won by himself anyway and this season he doesn't take them. I personally think he's an excellent player and better than Jermaine Defoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Should Reading have paid Cork an extra few hundred grand for the sake of it? If teams can get EL players for cheap it's up to the Irish clubs to increase the prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
My point is valid - the transfer fee paid was due to the clause in his contract. If he was Norwegian, Dutch or French it wouldn't have mattered, he was available for 70,000 so Reading took a chance on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
wrong and wrong
Doyle would not have signed his previous contract extension without the clause. If the clause was 300k or something I don't think would have been so bad. The club has learned from this & played hardball on other top players contracts since. We did at least manage to get 10% sell on clauses into Doyles & Longs contracts.
Ipswich have had O'Callaghan for 2-3 months already on trial while we paid his wages. They know what they getting now & soem quotes suggesting he'll be part of matchday squad straight away. If they up their bid by 20-30k deal will be done. Theres a quote from Magilton too where he says would have been interested in O'Donovan until he saw other clubs also sniffing around & he'd miss out of snatching him for a bargain.
Shels don't have a choice now but selling Dillon for pittance won't help their chances in future years of getting decent transfer fees. Its a balancing act but the next transfer fee will be impacted by what accepted for the previous one.
Won't a 10% sell on clause on Doyle's contract take some of the sting away?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
There was no onus on Reading to add this but I think City got it added to assist a quick deal. Reading knew a few other clubs sniffing around at that time. Sell on clauses no lose when buying at low prices as if sell on at high price just means have to share some of the profit...
surely nobody who speaks french could be classed as a bigot????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
So much emotive nonsense in this thread. Really, are we in the 21st century or is it back to "poor old Ireland" and "prefidious albion".
Let's put this into perspective.
1. A lot of English players may indeed be over-valued. I put this down to the fact that a lot of clubs want English players because their main market is England. Put another way, many English fans want to see English players play for their local team. Not an unreasonable position. This has led to price-inflation vis-a-vis English players.
2. The English leagues are a business pure and simply. They will pay the least amount they can for the best assets. If that means they can strip-mine smaller leagues like the EL or a Swedish league then they will do so. That's not racist that's just good business.
3. The EL is too incompetant and too small of a league to do anything about this. In essence, the clubs are so badly run that they'll take whatever they can get. It isn't racist for English clubs to make low-ball offers, it's just good business.
4. Lastly, the English league is still a competitive market. Villa made an offer of 5M for Doyle and it was promptly rejected. Martin O'Neill is Irish so is he now racist against his own? No he isn't. He chanced his arm on the basis that maybe Reading would be willing to part with Doyle now that Lita is on fire. Again, it's business. Stop making into something it isn't just to push your own agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
read coppells comments
read atkinsons comments to the irish manager who sold him mcgrath
in my book its a condascending/patronising - as close to racist as you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
:rolleyes:Quote:
Reading boss Steve Coppell has revealed that a touch of the hard stuff appears to work wonders for his scouting methods. Speaking about a trip to Ireland to take a look at club hot shot Kevin Doyle over the summer, the former Crystal Palace boss explained his perspective on the new signing was slightly affected by a traditional pre-game trip to the pub. "I can't really remember what it was that I particularly liked about him," said Coppell. "I had five pints of Guinness in the afternoon and it was all a bit blurred!"
I have read Coppell's comments and is says more about Coppell than anything else. A huge percentage of all forms of business is done over a drink. Not sure what you do for a living but in my industry drinking plays a significant role in client/business development and deal consumation. I am very confident it is true in most other businesses as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
As for Atkinson, well that transfer is more than 20 years ago yet you want to hold it up as the paragon of the current game? Give me a break.
The 21M price on Hargreaves is Bayern's valuation to the great dismay of Fergie. Chelski paid 17M for Duff. Robbie Keane has had big sums paid for him. Kennedy was the most expensive teenager in British history at one point and so was Robbie keane. As for the 5M price for Doyle, please remember this is Villa you're talking about...
As a rule richer clubs are forced to play more money than smaller clubs for the players of equal talent.
Carrick's transfer fee I'm sure puzzled everyone but Fergie was desperate to get players last summer.
This talk of low transfer fees of Irish players due to racism is nonsense. Players who come from the Eircom League or any other "smaller" league are seen as being unproven because they have not played regulary at a higher standard of football.
What about the transfers of Duff(£17m, £5m), Carr(£2m), Finnan(€4.9m), Andy Reid(£3m), Carsley(£1.9m), Dunne(£3m), S Reid(£1.85m), Kilbane(£1m, £2.5, £1m, £2m), Kennedy(£2.3m, £1.75m, £1, £3m) and of course Robbie Keane (£6m, £13m, £12m, £7m)
Not sure what you're on about here for full internationals the vast majority of these transfer fees are ridiculously low. How many England (even peripheral) players go for less than 5 million? None. Jermaine Jenas who is a poorer player by any standards than the vast majority of those listed above cost nearly 9 million ffs. During the summer Jermaine Pennant was 2 millions pounds more expensive than Duff????????? He is f**king terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrostars
Are all English Internationals better players than Irish internationals? Not a hope. Some of their peripheral players in particular are pure sh*te.
I'm not on a poor Ireland buzz anyway Fergie's son. I agree with the logic of your first point. I don't think Irish players are horrendously underpriced compared to other nationalities. I just know English players are ridiculously overpriced. Most Premiership managers would agree with me btw and have stated as such numerous times so it's not rascist.
Chelsea wanted to sell , Birmingham didnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
6 figures for Irish players from the EL is now the norm
as I stated here yesterday
For a young first team player of a similar stature to Jim Beglin (£50,000 '81) and Tony Cousins (£70,000 '90), shouldn't the norm be greater than €500,000 these days?
yeah 6 figures
ya can put a 5 on the top if ya like,,,,
I agree that certain players are over-hyped and over-priced just because they are English, but I'd mostly agree with Fergie's Son's points.
The other point that EL players are seen as unproven by bigger English clubs might be hard to swallow for some EL fans, when said player has European experience and underage international caps. I wouldn't call that racisim I'd just call it ignorance. Naturally enough the English underage scene is followed more closely in England than the Irish underage scene and the increased hype associated with this coverage has a knock-on effect of increasing a player's value compared to an underage player for another country (not just Ireland). The fact that EL teams involvement in European games is limited to the qualification rounds is also a factor because your average English football fan or so-called pundit/expert/scout is only interested in the business end of European competitions. Trying to negotiate at least 500,000 for a player on these grounds is not so easy. Just because the Irish media and many punters are in love with English football doesn't mean that English media and puters give a flying f*ck about the domestic football scene in Ireland (or any other small league). The best EL teams can do is negotiate hard on the contract clauses i.e.
Pay us 100,000 if he scores more than X goals in a season
If he get's an international cap pay us another 100,000.
If you get promoted in a season where he plays more than 20 games pay us another 100,000.
If you sell him we get 10 to 15 % of the selling fee.
And so on...
That way both sides are on a winner.
Until EL teams start reaching the knock-out stages of Europe and/or another 5 Doyle-type success stories emerge it will be very difficult to see them breaking the 1 million euro barrier. Of course another possibility is if an EL team manages to hang onto a player until he becomes a regular starter for the Irish international team but that'S also very unlikely at the moment.
With regards prices for EL players, it's the same in the SPL. Rangers got a 30 goal a season striker for £300k from Kilmarnock. They've also put in a bid of £150k for Falkirk's best player, Alan Gow. Hibs are the only team that seem to be making sure they're getting decent prices but that's because they're now in a good financial state.
I think its the way english clubs look at the LOI is actions that bordering on racist.
right I'm referring to specific remarks by English managers.
Its an attitude - its quite prevalent in the English game - and its the attitude that underlines valuations of million pound players at 70,000 euro just because they're paddys, micks, murphys etc etc.
Any Irish person here saying "that's what they're worth/ they're unproven in England" is an Uncle Tom. Thats the way I feel on this matter. The Uncle Toms can take it or leave it.
I dont think that English clubs are racist, they just geniunely think that the eircom league is the same standard as the conference and much of it is based on the fact that half the teams in the eircom prem are part-time with the rest gone full time just recently, just like the conference division in England. If Eircom League clubs think that offers are derisory they should just not accept them its as simple as that. As with the offer for Doyle the important thing to note here is that the offer was turned down so Reading obviously rate have a higher price on him. The figures for Ashley Young etc are pie in the sky they have not been offered and are just to scare away potential buyers.
Thats just stupid. If you're buying a car that you know can get for 20,000 euros why would you offer to pay 100,000 euros for it? It's the same with players. Why would a team pay a million pounds for a player they know they can get for 70,000? They are a business not a charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Until the selling EL clubs say, "no, Kevin Doyle is worth 1 million and we wont take any less", then this sort of thing will keep going on. And that has nothing to do with racism. It's just business.
A player is worth what someone is willing to pay. No-one was willing to pay a million for Doyle, so I don't see how he was a million pound player. This has nothing to do with Reading and everything to do with Cork. Given they knew they were going to have to sell Doyle why didnt they put a bit of effort into 'selling' him to other clubs for e.g. 500,000. There must be 200 clubs in Europe who could pay that fee.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
My view on this is Reading come across as a shrewd club who bought a player at a bargain rate, and then developed him. Cork come across as a club who have no knowledge or interest in the value of their prime assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
theres a whole history of how he came to have that clause inserted in his contract
i cant be arsed goin on about it but will you can the "developed him" cráp
he scored a few tap ins and pennos against players you've seen on telly, he's no better now than he was 18 months ago
No he's scored against some of the world's best defenders and is one of the top 3 scorers in arguably the best league in the world. Now you may argue that any top eL striker would do that with no development but I'd be surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
you know in many ways
me and you are very different people.....
If you are not prepared to be rational and debate rationally then you have no place on a discussion board.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Calling someone an "Uncle Tom" because they dare introduce logic and reason into a discussion is intellectually and morally untenable.
You are an unpleasant poster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
cheers your a barrel of laughs yourself
I'll let ye on on a little known secret. CCFC inserted the clause in his contract as means of attracting interest from foreign clubs. At that stage we also got a 10% sell on clause which if Reading had accepted the bid from Aston Villa would have meant an addition 750-800k to Cork City. basically we accepted a low initial payment in exchange for sell on clause as we knew he'd be a star.
:cool:
Which seems a good idea, except I was under the impression that the contract didnt require a sell on clause in any sale, which makes it a bit of a risk, or was that not the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
5 million for Doyle? If they double that figure then Reading might start thinking about it.......I hope he stays at Reading for a good while yet, he's happy there and it looks a fantastic set up. Villa have the opinion of themselves that they are a top 4 Prem club and would demand an intstant return from the lad.
Villa are a garbage club, if/when he moves it should only to be a starter at club that plays Champions League football or if Reading get relegated.
At least I attempt to apply logic to a situation rather than an emotive response.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Doyle should stay put for the moment. If it aint broke, don't fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
the criteria for value should not be whether a player is a full international, but rather the form they are in. obviously this is why doyle is highly valued at the moment. just because a player has earned caps for his country does not mean his value should shoot up, though it invariably will. the transfers of irish players have usually occured when they have gone through patchy club form with the result that their value has not been upheld just because they have represented us.
[QUOTE=youngirish;602361]Not sure what you're on about here for full internationals the vast majority of these transfer fees are ridiculously low. How many England (even peripheral) players go for less than 5 million? None. Jermaine Jenas who is a poorer player by any standards than the vast majority of those listed above cost nearly 9 million ffs. During the summer Jermaine Pennant was 2 millions pounds more expensive than Duff????????? He is f**king terrible.
Are all English Internationals better players than Irish internationals? Not a hope. Some of their peripheral players in particular are pure sh*te.QUOTE]
Blind nationalism. it is much easier to be a regular irish international (kilbane didnt miss a game for three years or something!) jenas would be a dead cert in our midfield, i cant believe you could suggest otherwise. a good taker of chances with abundant energy and a decent passer and his age justify a hefty price
of course some players will slip through to become 'internationals', steve guppy, michael gray, gavin mccann have engalnd caps, while of course we have micky evans, paul butler..but the comparison between such players shows the difference in standards.
on the mediocre scale of things england internationals that would be in and around the ireland team who, like irish players are transferred between average clubs, are not ridiculously priced for the most part. danny murphy £2m twice, luke young £4m, darius vassell £2m, trevor sinclair £2.5m, in other words comparable to similar calibre irish players. the only irish player who has gone to a top club recently is duff, who like carrick,hargreaves,SWP was outrageously priced. reading could probably extract £15m from utd if they wanted doyle, but thats not the case atm
i dont see the racism, if anything there may be an element of leaguism but doyle is convincing the perpetrators of such, debatable, crimes that they may need to re-evaluate their outlook.
In the short term I can see how the Eircom League feels they are being taken for a ride. However, if a couple more of these players make that sort of breakthrough then I reckon it wouldn't be too long before the prices start to rise to the £1-£2m mark, similar to what has happened in the Norwegian league over the last decade or more. And that money reinvested into the league could only be a good thing longterm.
Perhaps Long may yet make it, took his goal brilliantly the other night.
The fact is that when a majority of Irish people slate our own league this is what happens. Was Doyle only worth £70,000 when at Cork? Of course not but English clubs regard the eircom League as part-time non-league football and why should they think any different when more people in Ireland are interested in supporting Man United and Celtic than local football?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Since Doyle has signed there seems to have been a stream of players flowing to the UK, some very average ones are joining and getting straight into SPL teams. SPL clubs have copped on to the fact that there are bargains to be had here so hopefully this can change and the value of Irish players will go up.