Due Process...my arse

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Originally Posted by gspain

The GAA and rugby will be able to use Tallaght if Thomas Bigots lose their appeal. They just won't be able to DELAY the project indefinitely.

I believe ladies gaa and other forms can be played on a football pitch. rugby can also be accomodated.

Croek Park got over €140 million of public money so lets not go down that rathole again.

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Not true. The pitch would have to be extended for GAA and that is only possible if the stand is knocked.

The 1991 decision was a disgrace. Rovers had lined up a potentially lucrative double header with Dublin playing Down first followed by Rovers v bohs after.

A side issue on the Omagh matches is that all the moeny went "missing".

You might have seen reference to land the GAA own in Rathcoole in the papers the other day. This is a 26 acre site that they got for free.

Its greed pure and simple. They have no need or right to the stadium in Tallaght. They know it, the minister knows it and the people of Tallaght know it. TD are seeking a ruling from the High Court that will allow them a judicial review. The judge will throw their case out in the new year as they have no case.

Vitruvian I feel sorry at your pathetic attampts at WUMing. Dont know who shamrocks are either.

KOH

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Originally Posted by Vitruvian Man

Therefore Thomas Davis are fully entitled to claim they should be allowed to play there.

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yeah sure they are entitled to claim to play there but why are they going through this process? because they really need somewhere to play? gimme a break. if you actually think this whole episode revolves around the use of the stadium then you are kidding yourself. its the big rich gaa corporation trying to ensure riches for years to come by strategically placing itself with no competitors in the area of SW dublin. its business man! there are no ethics in business especially in ireland so its hard to argue, but this pretence that gaa are using that its for the sporting good of the area is stupid. its all about money im afraid. Shams are (potentially) one of irelands biggest clubs but they are still tiny in comparison to the gaa corporate machine. hopefully david can beat goliath on this one but i have my reservations... money can buy some pretty useful lawyers these days.

This isn't an attack on football as people are trying to portray with the spurious "link" to the Omah charity match incident, it's a local squabble over use of public facilities. I wish Shamrocks well in recovering from the mess they made for themselves but I am not feeling any outrage at Thomas Davis legitimately pushing their own interests.[/QUOTE]

In you original post on this matter you refered to Shamrock Rovers as "Scumrocks", now perhaps that was a typing error on your part although to accept that as the reason is difficult. you now appear to adopting the rational mature stance.

I think you are missing the point of this thread. Of course TD's are entitled to use due process and pursue their agenda via the courts.However in the opinion of myself and many others both soccer and GAA supporters , TD's are in reality hiding behind the cloak of "due process" to engage in what is in effect bullying tactics to try and stall the entry of Rovers into Tallaght.

IMO what they are doing is akin to the indivdual who recently challenged his right to a defence in relation to proof of age of conscent, which in effect meant that in the view of his legal team he should of had a charge of statutory rape dismissed on a technicality.

So yes that individual was allowed under due process to pursue his case despite the fact that in the eyes of most people it was "wrong" that he be allowed to do so. What TD's' are engaged in is the same , so stop pretending that it is ok just because under "due process" they are entitled to do so.

The GAA, led by their puppet Thomas Davis, have no case regarding the Tallaght Stadium, all they have is a legal mechanism to delay the construction of the stadium.

They are doomed to failure on this issue. The only real question is, how long will they attempt to string this sorry mess out?

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Originally Posted by Vitruvian Man

Shamrocks had their bite at the cherry.
They used to own the land (which they got for free) but they tried to sell it to fund the football side of things. It was taken back under the control of the local government who are now funding it's construction.

Therefore Thomas Davis are fully entitled to claim they should be allowed to play there. They are a local sporting body just like Shamrocks, in fact even more so because at least they actually play their games in the area.

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Sorry Virtuvian Man, just scanning threads but have to say that this is total bull****.

The government are perfectly entitled to say that they intend to develop a SOCCER (apologies for using the S word but to avoid confusion) facility in South Dublin without any obligation to provide anything for another totally seperate sport. Thats like saying they aren't allowed to develop swimming pool without making sure the local golf club can be accomodate.

The goverment provide facilities for sport, whether by funding developments of various mutually exclusive sports bodies, or by developing facilities themselves for the general public. If they decide to fund development of Croke Park for the GAA then thats fine, and Soccer or whoever have no divine right to use it. Equally if they build a soccer stadium in South Dublin thats perfectly acceptable and no GAA club (who have recieved hundreds of thousands of Euro for their own developments elsewhere in that area) has any f*cking right to interfere. In doing so they are doing exactly what people in this thread are accusing them of, bigotry and calculated attemtps to block the development of another sport. The Soccer people never came out and said we have to be allowed into Croker as its been funded by the Government, because it would've been bullsh*t.

By your reasoning the a soccer club could challenge the state for developing the national aquatic centre and not including a soccer pitch in it.

Wise up.

TG

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Originally Posted by ciaraa

yeah sure they are entitled to claim to play there

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No. NO. NO they aren't. I'm sick and tired of people giving any legitamacy to the GAA's supposed right to play in a stadium just because the state fund it.

Or that it should accomodate more than one sport just bcasue the state fund it. Ah, sure why don't Portmarncock GC take a case that the new facility in Tallaght doesn't incorporate a driving range!!!

Jesus!

TG

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Originally Posted by Mr_T

By your reasoning the a soccer club could challenge the state for developing the national aquatic centre and not including a soccer pitch in it.

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Or a soccer club could challenge for access to, oh I don't know, virtually every single GAA stadium in the country on the basis that the State has paid significant sums for their development.

That's the really baffling thing about the GAA's stance on Tallaght - if they were successful, they wouldn't be so much opening a can of worms as an entire vat of snakes.

Of course, the government has already said that if the GAA win their case they will simply refuse to build any stadium in Tallaght, so that also gives an indication of where the self-proclaimed sons of Erin are coming from.

While we are at the GAA-bashing, I'm not surprised they have been able to build wonderful stadia allround the country given the widespread abuse of the "expenses" policy to players and particularly in relation to managers receiving salaried payments.

This is theft from the Revenue as it most certainly isn't declared, it is so widespread every punter on the street knows its happening and is talked about openly, yet when former GAA president Peter Quinn was tasked to investigate it, he famously said, "not only could I not find evidence of payments, I couldn't even find the tables they were paid under".

How many articles have the Business Post and Tribune written on this subject? Yet they manage to so a piece on every winding up order.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

How many articles have the Business Post and Tribune written on this subject? Yet they manage to so a piece on every winding up order.

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In defence of the press, the winding-up order stories are on foot of a revenue investigation into underpayment (and non-payment) of tax bills by Eircom League clubs. As far as I know, there is no such investigation into GAA clubs, although I think you're right in saying that there should be one.

A big problem is that 'soccer' journalists chase news stories (as they should), whereas GAA writers are notoriously reluctant to criticise anything to do with their beloved association. Most GAA writers are little more than press officers for the self-styled defenders of the nation.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

While we are at the GAA-bashing, I'm not surprised they have been able to build wonderful stadia allround the country given the widespread abuse of the "expenses" policy to players and particularly in relation to managers receiving salaried payments.

This is theft from the Revenue as it most certainly isn't declared, it is so widespread every punter on the street knows its happening and is talked about openly, yet when former GAA president Peter Quinn was tasked to investigate it, he famously said, "not only could I not find evidence of payments, I couldn't even find the tables they were paid under".

How many articles have the Business Post and Tribune written on this subject? Yet they manage to so a piece on every winding up order.

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I believe there has been a changing of the guard very recently in the Revenue. No idea of who held the post in the past but the person with responsibility for Sport now would not be a GAA man. He is very much a football man.

In fairness to the Revenue most of the blame lies with the football clubs rather than the revenue.

As for the GAA managers well the Revenue have strict rules on expenses and you can't earn €100K pa without proper receipts etc etc. Strict rules apply to mileage etc as well. A revenue audit would be interesting. it is surprising that they've got away with it for so long.

Being form a primarily GAA background I'm still appalled by whats going on in Tallaght. I'd support the GAA in a lot of things but they deserve all the criticism that's coming their way on this. Due to college/work commitments I haven't played GAA or soccer in the last couple of years but I'm trying to get back playing at the moment. This has made up my mind not to bother going back to the GAA. It's petty, smallminded, GAA bullying at its worst. It's sad.

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

Look the Gaa could have done what the english rugby union did with twickenham and just have said no!

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It wasn't the RFU's call. Twickenham residents and the local council are particularly militant around the ground and have managed to successfully stop the bars opening after matches and prevented concerts being held.

The RFU knew they didn't stand a chance of getting permission for a bunch of soccer hooligans to come to leafy South West London so they didn't even ask.

Im also a GAA fan but i have to say its a disgrace that croke park is allowing this to happen. They should have stepped in long ago to stop all this nonsense. It just shows you how backward and petty some people in the GAA are. Why are the people of Tallaght allowing this to happen? Is this not causing a lot of bad feeling towards the club in tallaght?

Some interesting contributions to the subject of Clones and Tallaght on An Fear Rua's forum:

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Whose stadium in Tallaght? Seems like another person who doesn't understand the difference between building something using your own money with grant aid and having something built for you by the county council and then renting it as primary tenants. Rovers fan are we?

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It's quite clear that ground sharing is to be a one way street.

The GAA has all the good grounds. Happily for soccer and rugby clubs, the pitches are big enough to accommodate those games and therefore those grounds should be shared. Sure didn’t the GAA open Croke Park? What’s the problem with opening the rest?

The rugby and soccer clubs would like to reciprocate – they really would - but unfortunately the smaller pitch sizes are unsuitable for Gaelic games. Making the playing area bigger would lead to smaller stadium capacities and that is simply intolerable (see Lansdowne and Tallaght).

It’s no matter. Sure doesn’t the GAA have enough grounds of its own? What need has it to have county councils build stadiums for it?

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Well without wanting to open this can of worms, Thomas Davis have an architectural review which shows the stadium can be made to fit the GAA without a reduction in capacity, it'll mean redeveloping part of the work already done but with the DCB offering to help finance it I don't see what the problem is.

At least there is finally movement on Rathcoole. After 12 years of faffing the SDCC seem to finally have got their act together.

From John Costello's report:

"Rathcoole
In 1995, the Board negotiated the purchase of 26.2 acres of land to the East of Rathcoole from South Dublin County Council. The Council agreed to provide a right-of-way to the public road so that the Board could access the lands. At that time the Council expected this right-of-way to be through the existing Rathcoole Public Park. However, their efforts to deliver on this commitment were resisted by the local community and, accordingly, the lands have not yet been legally conveyed to the Board, despite the payment in full of the agreed purchase price. There have been numerous representations by the Board to the Council but to no avail, although the Council continue to insist that they are actively endeavouring to find a way to deliver on the access commitment.

In March 2006, we asked Michael Hand of PH McCarthy Consulting Engineers (and also Vice-Chairman of Ballinteer St John’s) to assist us in discussions with the Council. He established that the Council was involved in a Part 8 planning procedure for the so-called Rathcoole/Saggart Distributor Road with the project being on Public Display. The route of this road was along the southern boundary of the Board’s lands and, accordingly, the Council saw this as facilitating the necessary access. However, it became evident that there was significant local opposition to the Distributor Road, although indications were that there was still strong local support for the Board’s proposals to locate playing facilities on its lands.

The Board lodged a letter of support for the Council’s Part 8 proposals. Subsequent discussions between our Consulting Engineers and Council Officials on the one hand, and the Officials and the Councillors on the other, yielded a compromise whereby a 1km length of new roadway from Stoney Lane to the boundary of the Board’s lands was formally adopted by the Council at their July 2006 meeting. This would give access to the Board’s lands from the west, when constructed.

We met with the Council’s Director of Services for Planning at the end of October last who confirmed the following: -

w The Council is advancing land purchase procedures for the approved stretch of Distributor Road;

w The Council has funds in place to construct the road;

w The road would release some 25 acres of the Council’s own lands for social housing and, accordingly, its completion will receive top priority;

w Given a fair wind, the Council anticipates completion of the road by the end of 2008; and

w The Council has offered to hold pre-planning consultations with the Board’s representatives with a view to fixing site boundaries and agreeing an acceptable site configuration.

In view of this positive response from the Council, we have instructed the Consulting Engineers to engage with the Officials so that a planning application can be lodged at the earliest possible date. Arising from these discussions, it will be possible to complete the legal transfer of the lands to the Board. As there are a number of complexities to be resolved, we would not expect the planning or transfer processes to be advanced until early 2007."

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

Are you serious,the fai are making money out of croke park!!!

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That's not really the point - if the FAI feel hamstrung in defending the rights of their clubs against insular bigots then they should tell the GAA where to go, and play the games in the UK.

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

i blame the club not the gaa!

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The GAA are supporting them. You can absolve the GAA as an organisation when any part of it comes out against the club

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

Wheres the moderator-this is just turning into a gaa bashing forum and before you go on about this being a soccer it also covers other sports and general discussions.

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This is an eircom league forum, and the case involves the GAA trying to screw an eircom league club. If you don't like the tone of the discussion, maybe you should be lobbying your beloved GAA to drop this action, rather than having a go at football fans for being upset about it.

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

Wheres the moderator-this is just turning into a gaa bashing forum...

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When are you going to desist from this worn-out old reflex? Every time the sanctified GAA comes in for perfectly justified criticism someone comes out with this tosh.
Everyone would be perfectly happy if the GAA were prepared to live and let live, but that, as we have seen time and again throughout its history, seems to be beyond it.

This is a clear case of Thomas Davis trying every trick in the book, to stop Shamrock Rovers getting a foothold in Tallaght.

Seeing as this is the case, all EL fans and I mean ALL, especially Shamrock Rovers fans, should boycott anything to do with the GAA until further notice.

That means simply the following:-

1) Boycott All Dublin GAA Fixtures of any code
2) Boycott All FAI International matches held in Croke Park,
because the GAA will be getting rent for these fixtures.


I am currently boycotting all such fixtures in solidarity with Shamrock Rovers.

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

When are you going to desist from this worn-out old reflex? Every time the sanctified GAA comes in for perfectly justified criticism someone comes out with this tosh.
Everyone would be perfectly happy if the GAA were prepared to live and let live, but that, as we have seen time and again throughout its history, seems to be beyond it.

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Amen.

Sheep-man, defend the points raised rather than clinging to vague notions of "GAA-bashing" and the like, which are akin to saying "won't someone please think of the children".

Gaelic football is primarily to do with players "bashing" one another :D

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

1) Boycott All Dublin GAA Fixtures of any code

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I've been doing that for donkey's years. They haven't noticed. :(

I think the targetting of Thomas Davis sponsors and the GAA as a whole is the way to go. Just like the "JOHN 3:16" signs which can be seen on tv, similar signs (clever and witty) need to be made up and gotten onto tv. Tg4 are doing club matches all over the country week in week out and this could be a start but the leagues are also starting in January so while your doing nothing waiting for our season to start we could stay out of hibernation and do something proactive yet peaceful. Attend games in your LOI jerseys, or if holding a banner, wear your county colours thus showing support for the code but not for Thomas Davis/Sponsor etc.

On another point i see as well as the €178 million the GAA recieved in public monies for Croke Park they were also given €3 million of public monies for the instillation of floodlights. I think they have had enough, dont you? :ball: :ball:

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Originally Posted by gael353

On another point i see as well as the €178 million the GAA recieved in public monies for Croke Park they were also given €3 million of public monies for the instillation of floodlights. I think they have had enough, dont you? :ball: :ball:

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This is the part where someone inevitably comes in and says that the GAA deserves its success because of its administrative and fund-raising genius.

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

This is the part where someone inevitably comes in and says that the GAA deserves its success because of its administrative and fund-raising genius.

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The GAA deserves its success because of its administrative and fund-raising genius.

Best of luck to the GAA!

That stand/pitch should be for the whole Tallaght community and therefore cater for a range of sports, not just for the Shamrocks.

Amen.

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Originally Posted by Hooperatzi

forever in our shadow

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A statement that is wrong on so many levels!

and the sad thing is YOU know it too!

I think the GAA are getting nervous that may not be able to fill their shiney new stadium for their own sports in the future. The extra games in the Championship have been a boost over the last numbers of years with some teams playing in Croke Park for first time in decades. Now that the novelty has worn out attendances are not as good & only get event junkies for the summer games.

The eL may not be much threat to the GAA but international football & rugby as well as the hype surrounding provincial rugby must be affecting them in the heartlands.

Here's a little more of the reality of the bigotry towards the poor, persecuted GAA.

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Originally Posted by A-Mayo-Sheep

Lads ye love the word bigot here i noticed

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"Bigot" is actually a fairly harmless description. More fitting descriptions would probably be banned from this forum.

A good exposition the GAA mindset when it comes to stadia. It seems they have no need for any more, and their current programme essentially is about bigging themselves up.

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Complaining about a 12 million euro grant to build a 50,000 seater stadium is pitiful, the stadium will be at full capacity during an Ulster Final. No Eircom League club can even dream of recieving that sort of grant for a stadium as it would be uneconomical

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You need to stop bleating about the b-word, and try grappling with some facts and the arguments around them. You might start with the post immediately above yours, which addresses the very point about the economic sense, or lack of it, of building more stadia for the GAA.
This thread is about what the GAA is attempting to do to football, a game struggling for its very survival in this country, and the blatantly unapologetic hostility that entails. I suggest that, if you want everyone to be nice, you start with them. Very few people who oppose the massive imbalance of subvention of GAA in general, and the Thomas Davis outrage in particular, are interested in fostering hostility between codes for its own sake.
As for those horrible expressions you refer to, if all the GAA ever did was dream up not-nice words to characterise football, that would represent a century's or so progress.

If Thomas Davis get away with this in Tallaght then other clubs could be next.

eL people do not not generally complain about GAA funding such as Croke Park as long the eL & FAI get their fair share too.

As soon as eL clubs get a few quid from the government the GAA are the ones who criticising...

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Where is the economic sense in drogheda building a 10,000 seater stadium when, according to this site, their average attendance last year was 1751?

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Here, as it happens.
They recognise that gates cover only 20% of costs, so they are integrating other leisure and commercial facilities, the better to support the game. And fair dues to them.
I don't think they'll be expecting 12 big ones from John O'Donoghue as of right though, do you?

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Ok, you've got me there, and fair dues to them! But as regards to Flancare Park what about that?

Well I'd expect Drogheda to gain a fair amount in grants from the minister due to the leisure and commercial facilities. The Drogheda board will get a grant from the Government, how much of the stadium will be funded by the F.A.I? Little I'd say, but maybe you can prove me wrong! Where-as, the 12 million will not build the stadium in Monaghan, the rest will come fron the G.A.A!

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the rest will come from property developers, happy to pay for land the GAA was given.

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Where is this coming from? The stadium in Monaghan is not being sold, its being redeveloped.
From the Monaghan County Chairman, "We would hope that the government would come up with funding in the region of €12 million, and that the bulk of the remaining outlay would be provided by grants from the GAA and Ulster Council"

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thought you were talking about a different one, apologies.

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Provide a link please, because nobody else has

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From an E-mail sent in September 2005 by David Kennedy of Thomas Davis to Dublin County Board secretary John Costello - and seen by the Irish Independent:

"I'm confident that in any bout with Rovers that the GAA will be the last man standing"

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Originally Posted by Rorymon

Complaining about a 12 million euro grant to build a 50,000 seater stadium is pitiful, the stadium will be at full capacity during an Ulster Final!

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Whoopee!!! Full once a year!!! What a fantastic use of government funds!!! And what's the new stadium on the Maze Prison site supposed to be for??? It will be GAA compatible - so what will that be used for???

Building stadiums such as the new one in Monaghan isn't about filling a need - it's about the GAA using government funds to sponsor their hate-filled crusade to crush "foreign" sports in Ireland. Grabbing the lion's share of the funding means that the "foreign" sports don't get it.

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Originally Posted by BohDiddley

I've been doing that for donkey's years. They haven't noticed. :(

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Well there were a lot of Rovers fans who used to also support the Dubs perhaps if a bloc of Rovers fans, Pat's Fans, UCD Fans, Shels fans and your own Bohs fans were to do it , they might take notice.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Well there were a lot of Rovers fans who used to also support the Dubs

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Not any more. And as long as this farce continues, many Rovers fans won't be going to soccer matches in Croke Park either.

khoop

I won't be going to soccer matches in Croke Park either, until Thomas Davis back off and leave the Hoops alone. And I don't even support Shamrock Rovers. However if Shamrock Rovers can do with my moral support at a time like this, then they will have it, because an attack on ANY EL club by the GAA is an attack on us all.

Tallaght Stadium should be for Shamrock Rovers and for soccer i.e. REAL football. If the Hoops decide to allow some other soccer team to share the facility then so much the better for the bank balance.

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Originally Posted by khoop

From an E-mail sent in September 2005 by David Kennedy of Thomas Davis to Dublin County Board secretary John Costello - and seen by the Irish Independent:

"I'm confident that in any bout with Rovers that the GAA will be the last man standing"

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Link? Date? That quote should be up in lights.