Another Scottish born player declares for us

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Why do people born in other countries always want to declare for us? Scottish, English, Northern Irish...You never hear of any lads born in the Republic wanting to play for any other International teams...

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Tell me youngirish: Did you miss the history lesson on emigration? Are you not yet old enough for it? Or is that there is more likely to be a section in the Sex Education module at your school on the more extreme end of homosexuality, than any discource on why for most of the 19th and 20th centuries there were more 'Irish born' living outside the 32 counties than within it.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

...next stop An Teach Mór.

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Is that the one in Ballinasloe for the Connemara poteen addicts or is there a big house in Limerick?:D

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Originally Posted by The Legend

I wonder if you would be so strong in your opinions if a young irish kid declared for Scotland cause of His 'ol Granddaddy! Oh and personally I couldnt careless but this would be irritating if I was scottish.

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What you mean like Kyran Bracken who played rugby for England, or those fine Irishmen like the Duke of Wellington, Lord Kitchener, Sir Henry Wilson and Edward Carson? And seeing that you think that anyone born abroad has no interest in Ireland, please tell me where was Thomas Clarke, James Connolly, Constance Markiewicz and Eamon DeValera came from?

And who cares here what Scotland fans think? As far as I'm concerned, cut the apron strings from mother England, get some independence, and then you might be able to be called a 'nation'. :cool:

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Originally Posted by lopez

Tell me youngirish: Did you miss the history lesson on emigration? Are you not yet old enough for it? Or is that there is more likely to be a section in the Sex Education module at your school on the more extreme end of homosexuality, than any discource on why for most of the 19th and 20th centuries there were more 'Irish born' living outside the 32 counties than within it.

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No I'm well aware of it but just because somebody's grandaddy was Irish and decided to spread his wings and his seed away from the old country it certainly doesn't make their grandchildren Irish. How can someone be Irish when they've never spent any considerable time in the country where they claim they are from? If someone never grew up in Ireland, went to school with other Irish kids, watched Irish television, learned the Irish language and Irish history (etc), had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub then how can they claim to be Irish?

Irish is a nationality not a race. Genetically we're practically identical to a number of other Northern European nationalities.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

How many people on here can speak fluent Irish then? I left in 1993 and people were whinging about nobody speaking Irish . . . I come back now and people are complaining that nobody speaks English any more!
And it's spelt craic . . . .

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That was one point of many. Most people can at least speak 'Tarzan' level Irish.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

And it's spelt craic . . . .

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I was talking about crack cocaine.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

No I'm well aware of it but just because somebody's grandaddy was Irish and decided to spread his wings and his seed away from the old country it certainly doesn't make their grandchildren Irish. How can someone be Irish when they've never spent any considerable time in the country where they claim they are from? If someone never grew up in Ireland, went to school with other Irish kids, watched Irish television, learned the Irish language and Irish history (etc), had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub then how can they claim to be Irish?

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Ahh, the same old story. Bet you cheered just as loudly as everyone else when Houghton scored against England and Italy. Bet you weren't thinking then about the fact that their birthplace made them "less Irish" than other members of the team. :rolleyes:

Anyway, it's over to the wonderful Joe Horgan to put you in your place, mister wind-up merchant. Read on. You might learn something.

"James Connolly, signatory to the 1916 Proclamation and one of the main political thinkers behind the uprising, probably didn’t visit Ireland until 14 or 15 years of age. When he did so it was as a member of the British army. He was executed by the same British army while strapped to a chair in the grounds of Kilmainham jail. Born in Edinburgh. Plastic Paddy.

Tom Clarke, first to sign the 1916 Proclamation. Active in the cause of Irish separatism for over 30 years prior to the Easter Rising, he served 15 years hard labour in England for his part in a bombing campaign. Born on the Isle of Wight. Plastic Paddy.

Éamon de Valera, the last commander to surrender in 1916. Hugely influential figure in the War of Independence, the civil war after the signing of the treaty and Irish life up to the 1970s. He was President of the Irish republic from 1959-73 and had such an impact that the country became known as “de Valera’s Ireland”. Born in New York. Plastic Paddy.

James Larkin, who was credited with founding the Irish labour movement. He led the workers in the 1913 lock-out and was a hero to the Dublin masses. He was a Labour TD up until the 1940s. Born in Liverpool. Plastic Paddy.

Peter Monahan, a member of Tom Barry’s flying column in West Cork, was part of the guerrilla forces that are credited with bringing Lloyd George to the negotiating table after inflicting heavy losses on British forces. An explosives expert who died at the famous Crossbarry ambush, he is buried in the republican plot in Bandon. Born in Scotland. Plastic Paddy.

Sean Phelan, Sean and Ernie Nunan, Johnny O’Connor, Desmond Ryan, Margaret Skinnider, Desmond Fitzgerald, Joe Good, Arthur Agnew, Paddy Moran, Peggy Downey, Liam Daley, Piaras Beaslai and Liam Mellows. All were active in the rising of 1916 and had cockney, scouse and Scottish accents. Every last one of them born in Britain. Plastic Paddies.

St. Patrick, credited with founding the church in Ireland. Patron saint of the country. Born in Britain. Plastic Paddy.

Liam McCarthy, after whom the all-Ireland hurling trophy is named. Born in England. Plastic Paddy.

Seán Óg Ó hAilpín, the Cork captain who this year lifted that very trophy and gave his entire acceptance speech in fluent Irish. Seen by many as the modern embodiment of the GAA’s sporting ideal. Born in Australia. Plastic Paddy.

Paul McGrath, probably the finest player of the era when an Irish soccer team finally went to a European championship and two World Cup finals. This sporting success is seen by many as helping to kick-start the birth of a new, confident Ireland. Born in London. Plastic Paddy.

David O’Leary, who scored that famous penalty against Romania, and Ray Houghton, who scored those goals against England and Italy. Born in Britain. Plastic Paddies.

The Edge and Adam Clayton of U2, the band said by many to be the best in the world. Acclaimed as being the first to put Irish rock music on the world scene as a credible enterprise. Entwined in the whole concept of modern Ireland and Irishness as something cool and hip. Born in England. Plastic Paddies.

Shane MacGowan, sometime lead singer with the Pogues. Generally acclaimed as one of the finest songwriters of our time. His songs encapsulate much of what it is to be Irish and he wrote the greatest Christmas song ever. Born in Tunbridge Wells. Plastic Paddy.

Ronan Bennett, critically lauded Irish novelist. Imprisoned in Long Kesh and in England on suspicion of republican activities. Born in Oxford. Plastic Paddy.

Pearse Hutchinson, poet writing primarily in the Irish language. Born in Glasgow. Plastic Paddy.

Cyril Cusack, actor and father of the famous Irish acting family. Born in Kenya. Plastic Paddy.

Jack Butler Yeats, brother of the poet and renowned in his own right as one of Ireland’s finest painters. Born in London. Plastic Paddy.

Thousands of the children and grandchildren brought up in Irish families in Britain , with Irish names and Irish ways. With accents and lives in Britain. With their Irish faces on British streets. Every last one of them born in Britain. Plastic Paddies. Plastic Paddies everywhere."

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Genetically we're practically identical to a number of other Northern European nationalities.

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Not so. I suggest you read "Blood of the Isles" by Bryan Sykes, which is the definitive work on genetic anthropology in this corner of the globe. It gives the lie to your claim about being "practically identical" to others, and that's just in reference to the Scots, Welsh and English. Might be worth checking your facts before posting again.

:ball: PP

Plastic Paddy it annoys me when people like yourself make up stuff that was never stated in a post and then write a huge article rebuking your own invented take on the post. I never stated being born in Ireland was the definite marker used to determine if someone was Irish. The majority of the people above you mentioned spent a large part of their life in Ireland and this would qualify them as being Irish.

As regards your comments on your book. Irish people genetically are for the most part of the same stock as the original inhabitants that settled here after the last Ice Age with some migrations from the Celts, Vikings (Normans) and Anglo Saxons so try looking at other information before taking as gospel everything you read in some book you picked up in the bargain bin in Easons.

Here read this for another take:

A variety of historical ethnic groups have inhabited the island, including the Airgialla, Fir Ol nEchmacht, Delbhna, Fir Bolg, Érainn, Eóganachta, Mairtine, Conmaicne, Soghain and Ulaid.

The shared language and culture of these peoples (and indeed the peoples of Atlantic Europe) is one that can be placed among the European peoples. Current genetic research supports the idea that people living in the Britain and Ireland are on average mainly descended from the indigenous European Paleolithic (Old Stone Age hunter gatherers) population (about 80%), with a smaller neolithic (New Stone Age farmers) input (about 20%).[14] Paleolithic Europeans seem to have been a homogenous population, possibly due to a population bottleneck (or near-extinction event) on the Iberian peninsula, where a small human population is thought to have survived the glaciation, and then expanded into Europe during the Mesolithic period. The assumed genetic imprint of Neolithic incomers is seen as a cline, with stronger neolithic representation in the east of Europe and stronger paleolithic representation in the west of Europe. [9] The frequencies of Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Irish population are similar to that of most other populations of Atlantic Europe, especially the Basques of northern Spain and southern France.[8] [10] Y-chromosome analysis also seems to indicate that the Vikings that settled in Dublin came from Norway rather than Denmark.[10] Mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited through the female line, shows part of the maternal ancestors of the Irish to be of broad north European origin.

And if you doubt it look on the web for more information which generally adheres to the same line.

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

The Edge and Adam Clayton of U2, the band said by many to be the best in the world. .[/B]

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You were making a lot of sense until that bit.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Plastic Paddy it annoys me when people like yourself make up stuff that was never stated in a post and then write a huge f**king article rebuking your own invented take on the post. I never stated being born in Ireland was the definite marker used to determine if someone was Irish. The majority of the people above you mentioned spent a large part of their life in Ireland and this would qualify them as being Irish.

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Despite being born and reared in England my passport states that I'm an Irish citizen and that's good enough for me. I don't think anyone that's read my posts in the three or so years I've posted here would question my Irishness and the same can be said of many of the other 2G posters on here. Frankly it's a good thing we don't have to rely on your arbitrary and somewhat selective approach to nationality and citizenship.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

As regards your comments on your book. Irish people genetically are for the most part of the same stock as the original inhabitants that settled here after the last Ice Age with some migrations from the Celts, Vikings (Normans) and Anglo Saxons so try looking at other information before taking as gospel everything you read in some book you picked up in the bargain bin in Easons.

Here read this for another take:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

And if you doubt it look on the web for more information which generally adheres to the same line.

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If you take as gospel what you read on Wikipedia then I suggest it's you who needs to check the veracity of your sources. Mine was hardly a bargain bin purchase - like I said, it's widely cited as the definitive work on genetic anthropology in these islands. Hardly a remaindered puff-piece. As a matter of fact I'd happily recommend it to you.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

If you take as gospel what you read on Wikipedia then I suggest it's you who needs to check the veracity of your sources. Mine was hardly a bargain bin purchase - like I said, it's widely cited as the definitive work on genetic anthropology in these islands. Hardly a remaindered puff-piece. As a matter of fact I'd happily recommend it to you.

:ball: PP

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I don't that's why I said to have a look at other articles on the web which generally state the same. Who cited it as the definite work anyway? The author?

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I don't that's why I said to have a look at other articles on the web which generally state the same. Who cited it as the definite work anyway? The author?

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to be fair to PP I have read the aforementioned article, and generally it is held in high esteem, as is the author.

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Originally Posted by Qwerty

Bracken was given the cold shoulder by Ireland selectors at underage level, he would have played for Ireland if he had been picked. The IRFU used to - and may still do at under age level - have a very political selection policy.

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Sorry, i understood the IRFU to be non-political. What are Bracken's politics that make him so different from anyone else in the side?

IMO you should play for the team you grew up supporting.That would rule out a nomber of Jacks lads but how never.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

No I'm well aware of it but just because somebody's grandaddy was Irish and decided to spread his wings and his seed away from the old country it certainly doesn't make their grandchildren Irish. How can someone be Irish when they've never spent any considerable time in the country where they claim they are from? If someone never grew up in Ireland, went to school with other Irish kids, watched Irish television, learned the Irish language and Irish history (etc), had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub then how can they claim to be Irish?

Irish is a nationality not a race. Genetically we're practically identical to a number of other Northern European nationalities.

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Grandaddy spreading his wings and his seed? Its obvious your cojones haven't dropped yet let alone be able to use them. So this Irish experience? You mean like watching coronation street, supporting English teams, listening to the Spice girls?

Went to school with Irish kids? I didn't but many of us did. Some Catholic schools in Britain are upto 90% Irish. But going to school with English kids only marked out the difference between us more than if I went to a school where everyone was 2G Irish.
Watched Irish television? Well you have to thank RTE for a. puilling the plug on Tara TV and b. like every other civilised country in the world, putting together their own international service like TVE Internacional I watch.
Learned the Irish language (at school)? I learnt it at college thanks but guess what, my dad (Dublin born) doesn't speak a word of it.
Learned Irish history? I've got a degree in it, but I'm sure as it was aqcuired in a British university you'd consider it plastic.
Had that particular brand of Irish craic in the local pub? My first years of drinking centred around Irish pubs and Irish drinkers.

One thing you conveniently forgot to mention. Growing up in an Irish home with two Irish parents. Why have you chosen to disregard the one area of life that a child spends most of his time at? You talk about Irish pubs (what all Irish people drink or drink out do they) but you don't mention the home? Why not?

If you grew up in a country that actually spoke a different language, I'd say you have a case if it was wrong that anyone should claim to be Irish but didn't speak it. Truth is, I've known people born in Britain and lived there who could speak better Irish than yourself because it was spoken at home by native Irish speakers. Tarzan Irish? Is that the Upper Saxon dialect I speak but with an Oirish accent and a few 'loiks' f*cked into it?

Irish as a nationality is as you are right not a race, but it is an ethnicity. Citizenship is divided between uus sanguinis and jus soli. Ireland has only just joined the rest of Europe in having as its version of citizenship, the former (previously it mixed both). Germany has had Jus Sanguinis ever since the second reich, where German nationality is taken by blood regardless of the place of birth.

Anyway, let me see who's word I should take on my right to be Irish. The founding fathers of my country, some of whom were like me born abroad, and the emminent statesmen that drafted the country's laws and constitution...or someone on the internet. :D Who would you choose?

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Jaysus, am I the only proper Irish person on here or wha?

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By the sounds of things your a Dub which to be fair doesn't really count :p

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

By the sounds of things your a Dub which to be fair doesn't really count :p

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Hey now.

I'm a Dub and a northside Dub to boot (the only true Dubs are from the northside and I define the northside as follows:

from the liffey as far north as Raheny with a little Baldoyle there.

As far west as the ballymun road and east to the sea).

Everywhere else is crap.

Anyways, I live in the US so am I no longer Irish?

you forgot ronan o gara.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Yeah, get off this website and don't come back. Ireland now officially belongs to people who were born there, still live there, can speak Irish and dance like Michael Flatley.
Oh yeah . . . and who go to Mass every Sunday, play hurling and proper football and worship Pat Kenny and speak like Pat Shortt.

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I will take my leave then sir!

I also have most of my own teeth so count me out as well. Does the fact that my spouse is an American also preclude me from ever returning even to visit? I'll wear green pants and say "gee, aren't the Irish cute" just to remind everyone that, according to some, I am now an American.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Yeah, get off this website and don't come back. Ireland now officially belongs to people who were born there, still live there, can speak Irish and dance like Michael Flatley.

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bout time people realied it too :rolleyes: :D

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Americans? Jaysus . . . . what is the world coming to? Are girls from Killinascully not good enough for ya? This forum has gone to the dogs lately.

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No, they are not.

Some American women are top class looking.

Top class!

Would gladly trade in the citizenship for some of them :)

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Originally Posted by lopez

Anyway, let me see who's word I should take on my right to be Irish. The founding fathers of my country, some of whom were like me born abroad, and the emminent statesmen that drafted the country's laws and constitution...or someone on the internet. :D Who would you choose?

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You can think what you want I don't give a fat hairy ball but very few people I know or grew up with would consider you to be Irish if you have not lived in Ireland for a considerable period of your life. Your American, English, Scottish accent or whatever you use won't help either. Unfortunately these are the facts among most of the Irish people I'm familiar with if not the majority on here. If you don't like hearing the truth that's your prob.

The born abroad thing I never mentioned btw so I don't know why that keeps getting thrown in.

Im not trying to wind anyone up but Im with Young Irish on this.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

I haven't lived in Ireland since I was 17, but I defy anyone to tell me what I am and what I'm not. At the end of the day it's what YOU yourself feel and think that defines you.

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Maybe but you have still lived in Ireland and possibly grew up there so I don't see why you would have a problem with my posts. My original posting before Lopez went off on one referred to people who claim to be Irish because a parent or grandparent is Irish but have never lived in Ireland, don't really understand the culture or history etc. A large number of the Jack Charlton players while I cheered them on while playing for the team I would not consider Irish and neither would many other Irish fans.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

You can think what you want I don't give a fat hairy ball but very few people I know or grew up with would consider you to be Irish if you have not lived in Ireland for a considerable period of your life. Your American, English, Scottish accent or whatever you use won't help either. Unfortunately these are the facts among most of the Irish people I'm familiar with if not the majority on here. If you don't like hearing the truth that's your prob.

The born abroad thing I never mentioned btw so I don't know why that keeps getting thrown in.

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I've just explained the truth. I have an Irish passport. PP has an Irish passport. Other 2G on here have Irish passport. AN IRISH PASSPORT!!! It doesn't say anything different from my dad's. It's not like a British one with British citizen for one group; Overseas subject for another. It is the same as the one you're entitled too. :D :D

I think it's you that has the problem you poor dear. We had a referendum a couple of years ago about removing the automatic right of citizenship from Irish birth. The majority voted to get rid of the connection. That is also the TRUTH. Where were you in campaigning against the change? Not enhancing your identity in the local pub, I hope.

You're entitled to think whatever fairy tales you like, just don't put up p*ss poor arguments about Irish history in Irish schools (total boll*x as it's clear that if you studied it in an Irish school, it confirms my own view that it's hopelessly dire), Irish pubs (great place for gaining identity :rolleyes: ) or speaking the Irish language (when a large number of the 'real' Irish - probably yourself included - can barely string together a sentence), and then forget to mention the most important area of life for a child's identity, identical between most 2G Irish born abroad and people in Ireland: A home with two Irish parents. It just makes you look a total tw*t.

As for what you and your f*ckwit mates, who think being born in stables makes you a horse, believe? I wonder how many of them follow English clubs and read English papers? The majority of Irish people in my own experience accept my identity let alone my citizenship. True there are a fair few muppets, but as I always say that's ignorance down to a lack of decent Irish history in Irish schools which - understandable in a way - ignores the great shame having to force more than half its people to leave for most of the last 150 years.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

I don't have a problem, it's a debate. I feel we need to acknowledge the vast Irish diaspora and you don't. We disagree. No problem. I'm just not comfortable with the whole 'I'm-more-Irish-than-you-pal' vibe.

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Don't claim to be more Irish than anyone else who is Irish and that as I've stated before can include people that are born abroad but have lived at some stage in Ireland and understand the Irish mentality, culture etc.

To sum this up what annoys me is when I'm abroad (as at present) and in an Irish pub (which in itself is a farce. Pubs in England can claim to be Irish for just serving Guinness for f**k sake so what is an Irish pub?) and I get some drunk with an Ireland jersey on spouting to me in a cockney accent about how bad the British were to us and how the situation up north got to the way it is and how we all still eat just potatoes and live in the fields farming etc. In my experience a large proportion of the Irish dispaora that isn't originally from Ireland (this does not refer to all of them) have no clue what it's like to live in Ireland today. Irish bred (not born) people that I know have an almost unique outlook on life (our humour, family, politics, religious attitudes) that I haven't seen replicated externally in all my travels even amongst the Irish dispaora (look at Irish Americans ffs they have no clue for the most part what modern Irish people/culture is all about, they are still stuck in some romanticised version of f**king 1845).

This is my opinion. I'm sure one day I'll meet a non-Irish born, non-Irish bred person who will be similar to the people I grew up with in North inner city Dublin (kip) but it's yet to happen and it will be a rarity when it does.

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Originally Posted by lopez

As for what you and your f*ckwit mates, who think being born in stables makes you a horse, believe? I wonder how many of them follow English clubs and read English papers? The majority of Irish people in my own experience accept my identity let alone my citizenship. True there are a fair few muppets, but as I always say that's ignorance down to a lack of decent Irish history in Irish schools which - understandable in a way - ignores the great shame having to force more than half its people to leave for most of the last 150 years.

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Why have you this hang up about the English? You are f**king English. If you were really Irish you'd grasp we're over the anti-English thing for the most part. We now look on them as our poorer neighbours who pi*ssed us off in the past but can't hold much of a grudge anymore now their once powerful country is sliding towards the sh*ts.

And I agree our Irish history lessons may have been s**t but we learned them in Ireland in an Irish school. Taught by Irish teachers. So who gives a wa*k?

P.S. Clinton Morrison also has an Irish passport.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

...and I get some drunk with an Ireland jersey on spouting to me in a cockney accent about how bad the British were to us and how the situation up north got to the way it is and how we all still eat just potatoes and live in the fields farming etc...

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One drunk and it's a generalisation. :rolleyes: Suppose I could find an English tourist in Dublin who got the same treatment, but instead of the bit about potatoes and farms in Ireland its pearly suits/cloth caps and warm beer in England.

So are you staying in England? If you have kids don't forget they do a nice line in three lion babygrows. Don't call them Ruari or Saoirse, though. That would really mess them up and they'd hate you for it. :D

lopez, youngirish - you ignored my pm's about swearing and personal abuse so if you want to continue this debate send each other pm's.

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=7880