I'd agree with the rest of the post but...the Gardaí are enforcing the will of the Irish Courts and not that of Shell or the GovernmentQuote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
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I'd agree with the rest of the post but...the Gardaí are enforcing the will of the Irish Courts and not that of Shell or the GovernmentQuote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
And the will of the courts is the will of the multinationals. Very little has changed in Irish law since the days when we were part of the British Empire, who's interests do you think the B.E. established their laws for the benefit of? Rackrenting landlords and captains of industry thats who. Thats why these laws suit the Irish capitalist establishment and the tentacles of US Imperialism - the multinationals - so well today.
Either you are being disingenious here or you are ignorant of reasons for the protest.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
Issue One: They (the residents of the area) want the gas processed off shore as is the industry norm unless of course the Gas sourse is in the middle of a desert miles from habitation.
Issue TWO: The left in the campaign want the gas to be processed by a nationalised company run for ther benefit of the Irish peple, not a profit exporting multinational.
Issue Three: Some elements I.E. the environmentalists would prefer not to have the gas processed at all. These three elements of the protest represent different views who have come together for the purpose of unity. I doubt anyone is in all three camps more likely you have Issue 1. as the main issue for the locals with some having an interest in issue two and others with issue three.
Are you saying that the Judiciary is not independent?. There is a clear seperation of power between it and the executive.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The Constitution was written in 1937 which was long after the British left. Many new laws have been enacted since then which have no relation to The Empire. I've sat in many a court room and watched judges go out of their way to help citizens of the state in cases where the State has initiated proceedings against them.
Finally, I have to agree with Dahamsta. You sound like your cutting and pasting out of every little red book that was ever written. Dogma turns peole off.
Then why do you repeat the Dogma you are taught in school that the judiciary is independant? Name to me a time in history when the state was independant of classes, when the state was not organised along the lines that best suited the ruling class. Why for example are the tribunals into political corruption unable to prosecute anyone? I'm not sying that a judge or a garda can't be a decent person but I am saying that these institutions are institutions of class rule. You can call that dogma if it makes you feel better but any look at the evidence bears this out. The fact that it was legal to rob the Irish people of the corrib gas field in the beginning bears this out.
This is going way off topic. Comrade Bohspartisan is throwing a lot of accusations here about the Gardai & the state. I had a lot of sympathy for the Rossport five. They were local people protesting about something that was happening in their community. My reference to the rent-a-mob, was accurate in my opinion. Sinn Fein admitted to busing in 22 people & then the usual suspects of Social workers & Richard Boyd (rich boy with nothing else to do) Barrett turn up. As I’ve said before other people have rights too , not just the protesters. If you feel so strongly about these issues ,you should stand alone & not use petrol/plastic & whatever other by products the industry produces. It’s like listening to a vegetarian talking about the evils of meat while eating a big juicy steak dripping blood
Thats a moronic comment Ringo.
1. If someone was a Vegetarian they wouldn't be eating a steak.
2. You are not comparing like with like. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice, being a Socialist is a political choice. Being a Socialist does not mean you are against cars, mass produced food, deoderant, shaving utensils or any of these things - it means you want to change the way wealth is produced and distributed on a mass scale. You can't do that by turning on tuning in and dropping out. Its an idiotic analogy that is not worthy of a 16 year old.
3. Sinn Féin or anyone else bussing people in to support the protest is irrelivant. Many groups did that. So what. 22 people on a bus? What a revelation!
I don't like Sinn Féin one bit and I'm not the biggest fan of the SWP so if it was just these people making up something to protest on 1. I wouldn't support it, 2. It wouldn't have lasted this long because you need some sort of support in society at large to sustain something like this. 3. The issue which has already been addressed is not that these people do not want to use Cars or the fuel that makes the cars go its how it gets from A to B, how and where it is refined and who is doing the refining. Now stop wasting my time with illinformed comments like the above.
So is that. We've had a discussion about this in the Support forum before when you stuck your nose in to lecture me about how I dealt with someone else, so you know damn well it's against the rules. Don't do it again, and don't argue with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The gardai are upholding the laws of this land & decisions of various independent courts. I agree with comments that the gardai not heavy handed enough in other situations where people blocking public roads.
The Shell to Sea people do not know what they stand for. Do they oppose Shell use of natural resouces? Do they oppose the Terminal in exisiting location or all locations? 'Shell to Sea' name suggest that they do not oppose the Shell operation but just don't want it in their area. They are no different than any other nimby organisation. The addition of some SF supportes to their protests will not increase public support.
The big business Rhetoric is getting boring now. We live in a democratic country & just because some people can't get TDs elected in enough numbers they complain about bias. The state funds political parties & public donations are not done in secret anymore. Not accepting the democratic will of the country is called Communism!
I didn't vote for FF & I don't like them but for good or bad thats what the nation elected to run this country. If the majority doesn't like this they will vote for someone else or stand for election themselves.
:rolleyes:
Done to death. You can look at my answer to this type of thing in any of the other posts in this or the other Rossport threads. You're like a broken record now.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Again I have outlined this in a post above. S2S is a federated group with different viewpoints coming together for a common cause. See my previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
Ah the old capitalist Dogma rearing its head again. You know as a moderator you should know better than to stray off topic. Me DrND and SoS have answered these ridiculous comments (which if I didn't know better I would describe as flaming) in great depth in the Socialism thread. Unless you adequately tackle our answers, which you haven't, please refrain from this line of arguement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
Less than 1/4 of the Adult population voted for them. Hardly representative of the Nation now is it? Its very expensive to run candidates and the government funding you mentioned is a pitance compared with what the brown paper envelope can afford, but again this is straying off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I feel if some opposes the petrol industry, then they shouldn't drive in the same way a vegetarian as you point out would not eat meat, why would you contribute to the industry. The original aim of the Rossport five is being lost (as is the topic in this thread:rolleyes: ). They were never against Shell; they just wanted the pipe either at sea or somewhere else. As someone said NIMBY’s. The collection of people protesting now, all have their own agenda’s & personnel grievances with Shell, The government & Gardai etc. The topic is about Rossport & the protest there, not about socialism & Capitalism. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
That’s democracy for you:D . The public are so stupid, what can you do, they have no mind's of there own;) . Maybe they just don't by into the whole socialism thing, i wonder why:rolleyes:
But I would posit that you cannot place Rosport in a vacume divorced from the material circumstances that created the situation.
I wouldn't call the protesters NIMBY's as thats a derogatory remark for people who do no want something in their area but don't mind it being in someone else's back yard. Thats not an accurate description of the original aims of the protest. They want the refinery to be at sea as is the industry norm!
Again the example you use of vegetarianism is not comparing like with like. The people at Rossport ar not against modern technology or the use of fuel sold by Shell, so why are they hypocrites for driving cars? I'm sure they are boycotting Shell and Statoil until this is resolved. I know I do.
Surely placing the Terminal on the edge of the coast (i believe this was 1 proposed site by the protestors) will ruin the scenic area for the purposes of tourism? Would seem better to place it in a bog well away from the scenic parts of that area?
:confused:
Bog is unstable. Not a good place for highly pressurised pipes.
I only used bog to suggest land of low value.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
If it was sufficiently far away from population ant the land was stable like in the middle of a desert that would be fine. Thats not an option in this instance.
The legal arguement employed here might hold water (though as I have already stated I believe th elaw is stacked against the protesters and civil disobedience is a legitimate tactic) if the cops actually abided by the law and made arrests rather than carrying out acts of ultra-violence against the protesters - which is not allowed by law but I don't see any of them being arrested either.
[QUOTE=Ringo;576011]That’s democracy for you:D . The public are so stupid, what can you do, they have no mind's of there own
Maybe they just don't by into the whole socialism thing, i wonder why:[QUOTE]
in a country where the irish sun is the biggest selling daily!:rolleyes:
no really democracy is great:(
It's not but hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudices. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
KOH
People aren't stupid, just blighted by years of having no opposition worth voting for. Its hardly surprising that half the population couldn't give a flying fig about politics.
Isn't it the Indo at the moment? Isn't that worse? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
As long as we can keep the Star away from the top spot we'll be ok.
adam
Indo, then IT, then the Sun, then the Star.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
IMO The Star is miles ahead of the Sun. Say what you like about the Star but editorially it's Irish. Small consolation but it does make a difference.
I deal with Sun/NOW/Mirror/People hacks every day. They're all based in the UK and making editorial decisons about Ireland with zero knowledge.
KOH
I don't care how Irish it is, it's a rag. The Sun isn't much better, but the Star is just plain lowest common denominator sentationalist claptrap. The hacks can't even write their own stories ffs, they have to steal it from message boards.
adam
And that's why you and your like are ****ing into the wind.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Not the case. Its a slow process but once we establish ourselves in an area we gain a lot of support - but as I said, very slow process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
oh sorry, its second then, or third:rolleyes:
The judiciary are political appointments.Quote:
Originally Posted by onceahoop
Any suggestion for alternative? Remember we do elect the politicians. I think political appointees a lot better than way Sheriffs & Attorney Generals elected by the public in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I'm not sure there is an effective alternative, probably the best of a bad lot. Thinks it's a whole other thread myself, particularly given recent high profile events.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I was more making the point that the Judiciary are not necessarily independent and unbias, as some were making out.
An elected and recallable Judiciary is the only way it can be accountable. There needs to be a complete overhall of the whole legal system. Solicitors and Barristers get way to much money. In the case of tribunals that have no propper outcome they actually profit from having the whole thing drag on and on and on.
Yeah, that aul democracy is terrible stuff. Better to do away with it altogether. Sure what would ordinary people know about anything. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
KOH
But they're not the judiciary - that's the equivalent of electing the DPP rather than the Judge.
If we could limit the number of people who get a vote would be good but don;t think its feasable. Sure look at the number of people who re-elect idiots like Lowry, Healy-Ray, Flynn etc... I think they have proven they can not be trusted with votes.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
A directly elected judiciary would lead to populous causes played on by the red top tabloids using bad cases to dictate bad law.
There's a documentary on RTÉ One next week called Eoin O'Duffy: An Irish Fascist. It might be of interest to you as you seem to have similiar views. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
KOH
What night is that on?Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
It's actually Tuesday December 5. Fascinating stuff that will make FG and the Guards squirm after spending 60 years pretending that they don't have fascist DNA. Press release below.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
KOH
Eoin O'Duffy - An Irish Fascist is a new and revealing portrait of a man who, over sixty years after his death, continues to be remembered as one of the most controversial figures in twentieth century Irish history.
Eoin O'Duffy's reputation as one of the villains of Irish history is rooted in his role as leader of the Blueshirts, Ireland's fascist movement during the 1930s, when he modelled himself on Benito Mussolini and declared his admiration for Adolf Hitler.
But as this new documentary reveals, O'Duffy was much more than an Irish fascist.
As a ruthless IRA leader during the War of Independence, a close ally of Michael Collins, the Garda commissioner who helped shape the force today and the first President of Fine Gael, O'Duffy was a complex and contradictory character - and one who played a central role in the creation of modern Ireland.
With access to previously unseen documents, including O'Duffy's unpublished memoirs, Eoin O'Duffy - An Irish Fascist provides a riveting and revealing insight into one of Irish history's most intriguing characters.
The documentary explores the personal motives that drove O'Duffy throughout his life: from his impoverished childhood in Monaghan to his revolutionary republicanism; and from his leadership of Fine Gael and the Blueshirts during the 1930's to his final days as a Nazi sympathiser during World War Two.
The film reveals how O'Duffy was a man blinded by ambition and haunted by personal demons. It also shows how he failed to live up to his own ideals, not least as a preacher of teetotalism who was, in private, a chronic alcoholic. The documentary also assesses recent claims that O'Duffy was a closet homosexual.
Eoin O'Duffy - An Irish Fascist features contributions from a range of leading Irish historians, including Dr. Fearghal McGarry of Queen's University, Belfast, author of a recent biography on O'Duffy, and Diarmaid Ferriter of Dublin City University.
The Rest of the ArticleQuote:
Gas pipeline explodes in Indonesia on Java Island death, injuries and unfolding environmental disaster
Indonesia blamed an uncontrolled mud flow on Thursday for a gas pipeline explosion that killed at least seven people and injured 12 on Java island.
The late Wednesday blast -- which disrupted gas operations in the area -- occurred near the city of Surabaya in a part of the state-owned Pertamina East Java Gas Pipeline.
from http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/in...ca=9&si=101851
Seventy percent of people in County Mayo believe that work on the controversial Shell Corrib gas pipeline should be allowed to continue uninterrupted, according to a 'Red C' opinion poll for the Irish Independent and Prime Time.
This Poll indicates a strong backlash against the recent violent clashes between demonstrators and Gardai in Bellanaboy.
Only 8% of people agree with the statement that protesters at the gas pipeline speak for all of the community while 40% said the demonstrators only represent a minority.
A further 53% believe that protesters are indulging in intimidation, while 52% of people believe they are being manipulated from outside.
This is actually a distortion of the poll findings as you would know if you watched primetime last night. There were several polls undertaken all of which contradicted each other. In fact in one poll, people who said the protesters were wrong said they would take the same action if it happened in their area! In other polls taken the majority sided with the protesters.
The indo as has been pointed out before has an agenda here as Tony O Reilly has a majour stake in a similar gasfield off the coast of Clare and is more than likely waiting to see the outcome of rossport to do the same thing there.
Yes I saw that somewhat contradictory poll results too however a clear majority of people basically voted for Shell over the Protestors when had to choose. The protestors have too many mixed messages & have lost any public support they ever had.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I think PrimeTime & the Irish Independent poll is reputable poll. I have not seen any other polls undertaken by professional companies.
When is the last time we have mud slide of Indonesian proportions in Mayo. :rolleyes:
Irish Times did one. which I think was almost 50-50. As I said already I wouldn't read anything into a poll in O Reilly's rag as he has an agenda. The constant vilification of the protesters in the media will have an effect on polls too.
On the protesters sending mixed messages, I think the official Shell to Sea people's publications have been very clear about what they want. However the media have often misrepresented them. It doesn't help when news reports focus on people saying rosaries and "news" reports of fictitious female Gardaí being injured by protesters (Notice these claims are never substantiated, there is never any footage and there is never an interview with the "victim".)
Also good to see my post proving once again the instability of these pipelines being ignored.