and 1-0 to cameroon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
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and 1-0 to cameroon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
Cameroon were no great shakes that year either, which was proven by the fact that they didn't qualify out of a very poor group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
3-0 against the Saudi's flattered us, it really did. They dominated for long periods after the first goal went in and it was really only when we got the second (from a set piece might I add) that they really dropped the heads...
I agree, we were poor between the first and second goals. No doubt. I was there. The game was played in a virtual monsoon - an excuse maybe? Nerves played a part too I think, but that's when leadership in the middle was called for I admit.
I thought Kinsella & Holland did a good job at WC02 by and large. They also had good games without Keane in qualifying, notably away to Estonia. Holland scored that day too I think. But comparing this class of player to Keane is ridiculous. We were blessed to have such a player, but that doesn't mean that the others shouldn't be appreciated. I'd take a Kinsella / Holland paretnership from 5 yrs ago over what we have now any day.
I always felt that Holland's neat & tidy approach, whilst not of obvious appeal to spectators & pundits, was exactly the type of midfield contribution his team mates would appreciate.
[QUOTE=Dr. Ogba;566706]Cameroon were no great shakes that year either, which was proven by the fact that they didn't qualify out of a very poor group.QUOTE]
Poor group???????
With World cup finalists in it, and the top rated African team? Plus ourselves who happened to stop Holland from qualifying.
I remember before the cameroon game, everyone was arguing over how much we would lose by. Then we go and get a deserved draw and suddenly Cameroon are sh*te.
Bottom line, we performed well in WC 02, without RK, who apparently, from comments above was so deperate to play in a World Cup.
I think it would be unfair on any Irish midfielder of the time and at the present to be compared to Keane, it just shouldn't be done as he wa a once-off. For Holland, what you would call neat and tidy, I would call anonymous and ineffective, matter of opinion I suppose (even though I'm right :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Cameroon were hyped as a great team, nothing more. In reality, as shown, they were average at best...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedder
Look my point is that we flattered to deceive in that WC and rode our luck quite a few times and at the root of this was a distinctly average midfield of which Matt Holland was an integral part. When asked to step up to the plate and dominate the midfield he just wasn't up to it...Funnily enough I actually preffered Kinsella as a player cause there was a bit more bite to him, he was always willing to put the tackle in but, as a midfield partnership they just didn't work as they were too similar and neither could pass the ball!!
Also I'm trying to make this argument without mentioning RK which has been done to death :rolleyes:
To be consistent, I've got to acknowledge that when I swa Alan Quinn & Matt Holland play side-by-side in the Unity Cup at The Valley, Quinn stood out by a mile as the more effective player.
simple people laugh easily.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by nedder
Owlsfan you cant see anything through those saipan tinted glasses of yours.
They were dyin to get rid of Macarthy at Millwall at the time. and they were headin down and they did go down. yes the spain match was brutal. the swiss match was shocking. you say last match in charge as if that excuses it? Russia away was a farce. Swiss home was a farce as well. Macedonia away twice were farces. Iceland home and away farces. belgium home and away ? Ireland only played marginaly better in second leg but were played off the park in first leg despite taking a one nil lead. Holland home ,portugal home and cyprus away were all in no small part due to Roy Keanes influence on all the games. he had a massive game in them all which dragged the rest of them with him. holland away we were two goals up and still threw it away. we found our true level in the World cup. couldnt beat anyone except a very poor saudi team. were blessed against spain to get to extra time and were poor against cameroon. the first two keane -less games of the following campaign were absolutely clueless performances agaisnt swiss and russia. anyone who looks back on macarthys time as some golden era in irish football either only started getting into it around the qualifiers for the 2002 WC or knows nothing about football. thats you in the second category owlsfan. as for your roy keane dig at me? your the one who is the sheffield wednesday fan. didnt think they had much to do with Ireland? fact is Macarthy qualified for one out of 3 tournaments. if rebuilding is an excuse he shouldnt have taken the job. echoes of staunton now. if he needs to learn how to be a manager he should feck off and do it on someone elses time. Interesting thing in Magraths book that fergie basically admits he didnt have enough experience to know how to handle certain situations when he first took over Man U. where the hell does that leave the FAIs policy of recruiting and overpayin the Wallsal waterboy?
Mick has said that he was too inexperienced when he took the Irish job. However he, like Stan, couldnt turn it down.
Mick never let his country down. And if your pal had so much desire to play in a WC where was he during it?
Facts are we qualified for a World Cup under Mick's tenure. Take away a last mninte goal in Iran and we went through the whole qualification and tournament unbeaten.
In his first campaign we were one goal from qualifying. Not bad after blooding so many new players. Granted we should have got to Euro 2000 though.
And as owlsfan rightly says there have been more talented Irish teams that never qualified for a tournament.
KOH
We could certainly do with Matt Holland now!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
Not too sure about being 'blessed' there Bill - Ian Harte missed a pen which if he had not bottled would have meant we'd have avoided extra time altogether! The first 20 against Cameroon were poor but once the lads settled they outplayed Cameroon comprehensively and created enough chances to win!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Would sooner have Lee Carsley any day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet
he let his country down by consistantly bein a crap manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
roy keane let his country down by consistantly being our best player?
where were you in WC 2002?
why werent you playin for Ireland?
did you let your country down by deciding not to throw all your energies into playing football? I think ya did. traitor.
Roy Keane is a legend, however there is two sides to every coin, and without keane and the whole **** surrounding his departure, the players who put on the green shirt did their country proud in Saipan, we deserved and should have beat Spain. Credit were credit is due, we are debating how good we were or were not in WC02, wouldn't it be nice to have to judge are players in a tournament again.
P.S. Holland may not be world class, but i am sure he would have done a much better job in the middle of the park than S Ireland & Kilbane did against cyprus.
Eight competitive defeats in seven years doesnt constitute crap I'm afraid. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Rest of your post doesnt make any sense really traitor lover.
KOH
Ah very clever, I see what you did there...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
Holland is well past it now i believe and would not be much use to us but 5 years ago he was an extremely effective midfielder, captain of his club, and banging in the goals from midfield. He did more than his fair share in helping us to qualify for 2002 and thats as much down to management by mick as anything else.
as soon as mccarthy went holland became a nothing player for us. there is something to be said for him playing well alongside keane as did phil babb alongside mcgrath but to say he was ****e for ireland is utter rubbish.
he didnt look interested when playing for us after mccarthy which in my opinion means that he knew that the good times were over and that he just didnt want to play for us anymore and that in itself is sad and a reason why i would have no interest in having him back.
:D v goodQuote:
Originally Posted by NY Hoop
my chip stems from enduring 6 odd years of his crap stewardship. I will go on the evidance of my own eyes over the evidance of your ability to use google
God bless your eyesight then chip. Great evidence: I dont like him therefore he cant manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
KOH
No he made managerial schoolboy errors which cost us games we could have won.
and denis irwin had to prove himself!
paul mcgrath man of match against manure utd, overlooked
anyway Mick did alright for a half decent manager
still he should have bit his tongue and let roy have his tantrum
Mick McCarthy was not the only person to have been on the receiving end of rants like that ... others (including Alex Ferguson) also got something very similar!
title of this thread is ironic to say the least ;)
You had the inside knowledge of what was going on in the Millwall boardroom:eek: I repeat they were in SECOND place in the league when McCarthy took the Irish job. Try and back up your statements with some sort of credible evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
No one said the McCarthy time was the "golden era" in Irish football. When Charlton left, the team was in decline. Anyone who was at Lisbon, Austria and Anfield during that campaign could see that. More than half the team was over 30 so it was a rebuilding process that McCarthy faced. Despite that HIS team got us to two play offs and eventual fruition in qualification. With the resources at his disposal this was a good achievement. Both play off defeats were by the narrowest of margins. The Turkish penalty at Lansdowne was a joke. I agree we didn't peform well in home game against Belgium but we were the better side in Brussels. Perhaps it didn't look like that to you on your barstool but I can tell you his team gave everything that night. Mick cried in the tunnel at the end of that game - he had more passion for his country than some I won't mention. Cameroon - best team in Africa. Germany - WC Finalists. Spain - one of the best teams in Europe. We matched them all. Sorry we didn't beat them all by 6 or 7 as you seem to expect. We might have if someone hadn't taken the huff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Bit rich coming from someone who names himself after a clown of a tv presenter who knows nothing about soccer (appropriate I suppose when Ithink about it). I follow, Ireland, Shamrock Rovers and Sheffield Wednesday. SO what? There had to be a rebuilding process for the reasons already explained. Even if someone like Ferguson had taken the job he would have had to rebuild. It's not an excuse - it's a fact for Mick. You are just so negative about everything. Tell me something that you have taken enjoyment out of Ireland in the last 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Stan - that's a different story.
excuses, excuses....
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Bit of a contradiction dont you think?
And please stop trying to involve someone in most posts you make on the subject of the Irish team in 2002.
He cant.
His new found love of positivism doesnt extend to Roy Keane. He also fails to see the irony in accusing me of being overly negative and then jamming his post choc full a personal abuse. but what can you do. some people will be happy that Ireland put in a "performance" in the game agaisnt the czechs. is it negative to point out that 1 point from 9 and our qualification hopes gone after 3 games is unaceptable?
I suspect that the troubled spirit of Klein4 in ghostly form has returned to haunt the forum.
just thought i'd throw this one up for discussion. seen as they have now buried the hatchet etc..
Plenty of experience between the two of them. O.K. Keane has yet to prove himself at managment level but by the time the position becomes available he should have enough.
And does anyoune think that maybe the same thing is going in their heads in this regard given the recent ending of the feud.
Mc Carthy has done his stint in the irish job and keane is keen to prove himself in management first. unless they both fail miserably in their present jobs .. it might be a runner .. but otherwise, its a complete non-starter. In any case, Stan will keep his job as long as Delaney is there.
i'm talking after stauntons stint is over whenever that may be. just because mccarthy had a stint already dosent prohibit him from another.
the point i'm making is that say in 3-4 years time the overall experience of both of them would warrant a serious look at the possibility of them teaming up.
what would macarthy bring to this only his woeful record with sunderland? and keane for that matter? hes only one step up from Staunton on the managerial ladder and its not a very big step at that!
mc carthys woeful record at sunderland that got them to a fa cup semi final and up to the premier league on a shoestring ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
shoestring?Quote:
Originally Posted by zinedineontour
he had the money from the premiership tv rights. not poor at all. was he anyway worse off than some of the other teams in that division? no.unless ya can quote me some figures we can put that he was on a shoestring as your opinion as opposed to a fact. as I said. universally known as a crap manager. beaten out of sight in the premiership twice. FA cup semi final? didnt they get knocked out by millwall???
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinedineontour
Yeah and the two worst seasons for any team in the Premiership since records began. Shoestring? He spent 1.8 million on Jonathan Stead ffs. He might as well have wiped his ar*e with it.
I hope we don't revert to Bert from Sesame Street for Staunton's successor. Surely there's someone half decent out there managing in the Championship with some potential and decent experience that would gladly take the 600 grand a year that Staunton and Robson are skimming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
mcCarthy mightn't have been our best manager but consistently got the players to perform apart from a few notable exceptions. he at no time let his country down.
roy keane let his country down by walking out (his version) on the eve of the world cup despite being our best player.
where was roy keane for WC2002? walking his dog!
before i start i have always said the roy keane is one of our best players ever, but.......
keane has this reputation (espically among man u fans) of being this great man of principle who 'showed mick' and 'was right to leave because he felt the facilities were not right' and made a fool of niall quinn by not shaking his hand after being sent off for elbowing jason mcateer (the man whos goal actually went very far to securing our qualification t WC2002) and consistntly called quinn a muppet and said he wanted nothing to do with him after saipan.
he has been the pied piper to so many people in this country who blindly followed him since saipan (some even to the extent of booing the national team!!) - now he works for quinn! hypocrite?? you tell me.
also mick mccarthy comfortably got sunderland promoted to the premiership (in first position) at the first attempt and despite having to sell 15 players from the previous year. he may have boght lemons after but in 2004/05 he astonded everyone because the thought at the time was they were gonna do a swindon and slip right down the leagues - they were in serious debt and the board just wanted to clear the wage bill of all high earners. no one thought they were going to do anything but they went up. granted he was crap in the premiership but lets see if roy can get 'em there.
EDIT: i know roy started with 6 or so games gone but take 18 ponts from sunderlands total from 2004/5 and that would still of got them promoted
Just not true. He got good results when Keane was in the team. Without him we were third rate. He had one of the best midfielders in Europe at his peak in his team. This has to be taken into account when judging his ability as a manager and the results he acheived. His only Keane less campaign he didnt win a game. Was the Argentinian manager in the 86 wc one of the best managers in the world or did he just have a fantastic resource at his disposal?Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
Macarthy benefitted from managerial "Phill Babb syndrome". unfortanatley he beleived his own press and sent his best player home from the WC. (his version;) )
Again I throw this back at you(and anyone else of the simplistic "Let his country down" brigade)..where were you in that World Cup? You couldnt have been arsed puttin in the hours to become a proffesional footballer. so did you not let your country down as well in away? Who are you to pass judgement on anyone else then? If he chose to walk his dog thats his choice. Letting himself down would be doing or being part of something he didnt beleive in just cause someone he will probably never meet feels its HIS duty to play for Ireland. Did Muhammad Ali let his country down by not going to Vietnam? "I dont have to be who you want me to be" was his quote. I have more respect for someone who follows his own head and heart than goes with the flow. He didnt hide behind his reputation or go missing like a lot of players do when they play for their country.Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
youve gone off on one here .....Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
he wouldnt shake quinns hand in public so what?- even quinn in retrospect probably feels the gesture was a bit naff. Macateer purposefully went out to wind keane up in that game. he was entitled to and it worked but the national team could have done without that panto and all 3 let themselves down that day. they looked like idiots.both quinn and keane seem to be pragmatists at the end of the day and I for one see that as a good characteristic.
the national team was booed against Iceland well before this on the instruction of Cathal Dervan. A good mate of Macarthys. let you do the pop psychology on that one. as for blindly following him...where are these people supposed to be following him??:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
It was his second attempt.Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
and they went straight back down with him getting the sack with the board unwilling to entrust him with getting them back up again. why was that if he was such a miracle worker?
The bottom line was that Keane was one of the top 3 players this country has ever produced. Its a good sign of how things are in this country that a lot of people hate him because they put English club allegiances above their own country yet see no irony in calling him a traitor and accusing him of letting his country down. Some people here settle for mediocrity and have that "ah sure it will be alright on the nite" mentality, other people here despise that mentality. Keanes ambition and his success appeals to these as much is it rankles the win or lose we are here for the "craic" crowd. more concerned with whether we are well liked by other countries as opposed to whether we beat them or not. more concerned about how "upset2 the players are at losing as opposed to angry at the fact they continually bottle it on the pitch. Roy Keane was a winner. what would we give for a Roy Keane in the current bunch who got thrashed by a holiday resort?
he didnt let me downQuote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
Christ!! I don't know where to even begin ... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
McCarthy took over a team that was well over-the-hill. Charlton had allowed the same group of players to grow old together and had not gradually introduced younger players to give them experience. Consequently when Mick came along he needed to give debuts to a lot of players who had no international experience whatsoever. Common sense dictates that there will be a few sticky performances in these circumstances and that is exactly what happened. However, Mick did get the team to several playoffs and he did get the team to within a penalty shootout for the quarter finals of the World Cup. When you look at the players he had at his disposal that was a good achievement. Yes - he had Roy Keane and yes Keane got the team better results but look at Manchester United at the time - Treble Winners, Champions League winners etc etc etc. Who was the captain of that team? Who - out of all the stars in that side - was head and shoulders above them all? Roy Keane of the late 1990s / early 2000s was the best player in the world ... his club form (as well as his international form) shows that. However, that does not make McCarthy any less of a manager. As can be seen at Chelsea now - world class players do not necessarily settle into a team and perform: the circumstances need to be right. The circumstances are largely determined by the manager. Yes, Keane played some outstanding football for us at that time and we were very fortunate to have a player of his class but McCarthy facilitated those performances.