Northern players declaring for the Republic

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Originally Posted by crc

I actually don't think the issue is as black and white as you suggest. If a young Derry lad choses ultimately to play for the Republic, it doesn't mean that he hates Northern Ireland and that if he had have been selected he wouldn't have been committed to the side. National allegiange is a mosaic and it is not true that if you love one (the RoI of NI) that you automatically hate the other.

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I'm not suggesting any hatred of Northern Ireland. If the kid has a preference for the ROI, he should declare it early and leave Northern Ireland to select players who are totally commited to furthering their future international careers with Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.

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So what?

He has retired from international football, and that decision has been accepted and respected by the IFA.

Time to move on from yesteryear.. Neil Lennon obviously has.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.

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This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.

I agree that for the IFA though the situation seems a bit unfair. Perhaps the FAI should be forced to compensate the IFA for those players that jump ship but maybe only when they get a full senior cap as this is arguably when they start to payback the money that has been invested in their development. If alternatively the FAI had to compensate for the player as soon as he wanted to come over to the ROI setup this could lead to a situation whereby the FAI refuses to give the player the opportunity to be part of the underage squads because of financial implications rather than for pure footballing reasons (which is the important thing at the end of the day).

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

It's a difficult square to circle.

I've explained as best I could over on their board that I don't think I, as a southerner, nor the FAI have any business or right telling a northerner that he can't play for the FAI team because he's from NI. Notwithstanding the FIFA rules are somewhat tighter than just obtaining an Irish passport.

I think it's regretable and unfortunate that lads jump ship so far down the line but they don't appear to be breaking any rule.

Many of them (the NI supporters) believe that the FAI is actively recruiting among their ranks and more specifically in their footballing jurisdiction which I said I doubt is the case and I wouldn't support any move by the FAI to do that.

BUT I don't think we (sorry broad we ...the FAI) should be obliged to turn away anyone who approaches them and who qualifies -just to avoid stepping on toes.

I'm not sure where the middle ground is on this. I thought maybe a deal between the two FA's -extra to any FIFA requirement -that the kid decide after he becomes inelligable for the under 18's or something BUT that creates other difficulties and inequities.

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I agree entirely with the sentiments behind your post (also those of CRC, whose posts on the topic seem eminently reasonable to me).

It is not simply a case of "They're Irish, so they can play for 'Ireland' [sic] anytime, in any circumstances", any more than it is a case of "They're were born in NI, so they can only play for NI".

There are as many shades of grey in this area as there are shades of green elsewhere! Consequently, this needs to be handled with sensitivity and objectivity.

However, Lionel R raises one aspect which particularly concerns me, that of "tapping up". Up until the 1950's, both the FAI and IFA pursued "turf wars", whereby they each reserved the right to select players from the others jurisdiction. Eventually, a "gentleman's agreement" was reached whereby each would respect each others boundaries. This was, AFAIK, set against the background of a FIFA-brokered agreement over flags, emblems, nomenclature etc. all of which appears to have worked tolerably well for most of the next half century.

Of course, it shouldn't be surprising that this came under pressure following the 30 years of the "Troubles", but it is disturbing for NI fans that at a time when relations seem to be improving in NI generally, and in NI football particularly, that only now there appears to be a trend developing of young NI-born and developed players switching to the ROI.

For me, if a youngster genuinely wishes to represent the ROI, then fair enough - that must be his right. In any case, NI probably won't fully benefit from a player whose heart isn't fully in it, regardless of how talented he may be.

However, I can't help wondering how much of an exercise in "free will" such defections represent.

We have players who formerly seemed happy enough to play for NI on numerous occasions, right through to their late teens, suddenly "remembering" their "ROI heritage". Strange.

Of course, some (Tony Kane, perhaps?), may feel they've been messed around by the IFA, or individuals within the IFA, so they decide to change. But international football isn't like club football, where you can move teams if e.g. you fall out with the Manager. Ninety per cent + of other international footballers don't have the luxury of switching in such circumstances.

Aside from such cases, some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will?

And more disturbing, in a sense, is the possibility that the FAI may be approaching certain NI youngsters, rather than waiting to be approached. Of course, it is extremely difficult ever to prove that this may be happening, since it is in the interests of both parties to keep quiet. However, both Chris Baird and Keiran McKenna (Spurs Reserve from Fermanagh) have indicated that were approached during Kerr's time, but declined the offer.

And it is but a small step from making a phone call, to making promises and offering inducements of one sort or another. Doubtless, this post will create howls of "Prove it" from some quarters, which is fair enough, but I have alluded to the difficulty of finding proof, above.

Above all, I find it curious that this wasn't happening during the two year period when NI scrapped it's U-21 team for financial reasons, not was it happening very often during the period when the political climate round the NI team was horrible and the team was playing ****e. All three have since been put right, yet players are only now beginning to switch in significant numbers. Further, this wasn't happening a few years back when the ROI was at its peak, playing-wise. (There is also an apparent bias amongst youngsters from the Derry area, that doesn't appear to be reflected amongst players from other Nationalist areas, such as West Belfast, or Newry)

And aside from the sense of grievance felt in NI football circles that we are finding young talent and nurturing it, only to see our efforts hi-jacked by a neighbour with whom we thought we had good relations, there is one, even more serious possible consequence.

Invariably, it is only youngsters from a Nationalist/Catholic background who are switching. As I said, if this is entirly from free will, then we should respect that. But if there should be an element of "tapping up" by the FAI, the effect down the road will be to characterise the ROI as the "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland, with NI being the "Protestant/Unionist" team. This must not be allowed to happen. (It also raises the intersting point that if they are only approaching Catholic youths, then the FAI is discriminating against certain other young Irishmen, on sectarian grounds, by not offering them the opportunity to play for "Ireland")

How awfully ironic if, having endured some pretty terrible times over the last few years, football in NI should now face potentially its greatest threat just at the very time when things appear to be looking up on every horizon, both on and off the field.:(

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Originally Posted by youngirish

This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.

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It is not the "only crtieria", and it would not "discriminate against young Catholic kids" who wish to play for Northern Ireland.

It would make sure that the IFA are not grooming "luke warm" players for the future benefit of the IFA.

What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?:confused: :rolleyes:

I think it's nonsense to suggest that all young players at 15 or 16 can 100% confirm that they want to commit to one team at the expense of another for the duration of their careers. Surely kids at this age cannot be trusted to make such decisions and it's for this exact reason that FIFA allow all players to switch up until U21 level from any country. NI should be no different in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

I notice Lennon hasn't said he's available for selection though.

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So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?

For your information, Neil Lennon wouldn't get into the present NI team. When Lawrie Sanchez took over, he clearly stated that he was concentrating on his younger players, at the expense of older players*. Two similarly-talented midfielders with more caps than NL, who fell foul of that policy, were Michael Hughes (b. 1973) and Steve Lomas (b.1974). Lennon was born in 1971.

Plus NL has said that his career has benefited by being able to concentrate solely on Celtic.

Plus the fact that NL's place in the team was taken by Damien Johnson (now 28), who I think may be Catholic. And when Johnson is not available, his deputy is Sammy Clingan, a 22 year old from Republican West Belfast. (Presumably neither of these is "in his right mind", by your reckoning)

Of course, if NL should consider resuming playing for NI, he might seek up-to-date advice from Michael McGovern, captain of the NI U-21 team, who is a goalkeeper at, ahem, Glasgow Celtic.


* - Now where have I heard before of a new "Gaffer" declaring that he is going to build for the future? ;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

For me, it boils down to simply this - if a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, he should be honest enough to declare that early in his career, and let those who do want to commit to the Northern Ireland shirt get on with it.

As I say, the IFA need to be more robust in who they choose to select and groom for international representation.

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Why should they declare ? It would be disappointing if, in this new era, NI were to call for the introduction of some draconian rule which requires kids to declare allegiance if they want to play ball.

The English FA invests lots of money in grass roots football. Guess what kids turn up wearing Scottish, Welsh and Irish shirts & they are allowed to join in!

There are other benefits, which some of the posts are blind to, like how participation in sports contribute to the community - it's not all about grooming the international stars of the future. I'd suggest that building walls, hand-cuffs for young players etc. is not the answer.

Perhaps the IFA should ask itself a different question to one the some of you seem to be tackling:

Instead of "What can these players offer us, and how can we protect our investment"

to

"What can we do to provide better to support young players in our community"

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

It is not the "only crtieria", and it would not "discriminate against young Catholic kids" who wish to play for Northern Ireland.

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It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid? Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?:confused: :rolleyes:

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I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.

I agree that for the IFA though the situation seems a bit unfair. Perhaps the FAI should be forced to compensate the IFA for those players that jump ship but maybe only when they get a full senior cap as this is arguably when they start to payback the money that has been invested in their development. If alternatively the FAI had to compensate for the player as soon as he wanted to come over to the ROI setup this could lead to a situation whereby the FAI refuses to give the player the opportunity to be part of the underage squads because of financial implications rather than for pure footballing reasons (which is the important thing at the end of the day).

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Re your first Para, even if the IFA could distinguish political affiliations amongst young teenagerson Nationalist/Unionist lines, how could they distinguish between those young Nationalists who are presently very happy to play for the full NI team, and those who would prefer to play for the ROI?
In any case, since it is only Nationalist/Catholic kids from NI who are getting selected by the ROI, doesn't this suggest it is the FAI who are discriminating, by not offering the opportunity to represent the ROI to kids in NI from a Prod/Unionist background?

Re. your second Para, the net effect of this would be to make the IFA a "feeder" Association for the FAI. Not only would the IFA find this completely unacceptable (outrageous, in fact), but there is no way FIFA would countenance such a suggestion.
Plus, of course, the FAI would take only the best youngsters from NI, which would mean the rest (or the late developers) who don't make it would be unable to revert once more to NI to further their international career, since it is only possible under FIFA Rules to switch Associations once.

Think again, YoungIrish.

wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In any case, since it is only Nationalist/Catholic kids from NI who are getting selected by the ROI, doesn't this suggest it is the FAI who are discriminating, by not offering the opportunity to represent the ROI to kids in NI from a Prod/Unionist background?
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The ROI could not give a damn about their background, only if they could kick a ball reasonably straight.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.

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Speak to FIFA - while you're getting them to stop any NI players opting for Ireland. It was them that changed the rules from your suggestion to whatever it is this week a few years back.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...Invariably, it is only youngsters from a Nationalist/Catholic background who are switching. As I said, if this is entirly from free will, then we should respect that. But if there should be an element of "tapping up" by the FAI, the effect down the road will be to characterise the ROI as the "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland, with NI being the "Protestant/Unionist" team. This must not be allowed to happen. (It also raises the intersting point that if they are only approaching Catholic youths, then the FAI is discriminating against certain other young Irishmen, on sectarian grounds, by not offering them the opportunity to play for "Ireland")

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You answered the question here yourself. On the one hand we have the accusation of the FAI 'tapping up' (or as you said on OWC 'inducements' which suggests bungs). On the other, only nationalists are playing for the Republic. Many NI fans have to take their head out of the ar*es and come to terms with the fact that just as Northern based Irish fans don't get 'inducements' (e.g. free tickets in the manner of certain Latin American clubs) to see their country play, some footballers want to play for their country not a regional XI of a country they don't consider their own.

Personally, I'd thoroughly encourage the FAI to come out and say 'anyone who can get an Irish passport - black, white, prod, papist - will be eleigible to play for us'. Knock this stupid 'sectarian' accusation on the head, even if it risks p*ssing off a lot of our Northern :rolleyes: 'friends.'

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?

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He wasn't. But he was Protestant. I think the FAI at the time forgot to ask his religion.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Re your first Para, even if the IFA could distinguish political affiliations amongst young teenagerson Nationalist/Unionist lines, how could they distinguish between those young Nationalists who are presently very happy to play for the full NI team, and those who would prefer to play for the ROI?

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They couldn't which is the point I made. So are you agreeing with me that its nonsense to suggest on a screening process because it would lead to abuses due to political/religious affiliations, or disagreeing?

I was never suggesting that the IFA should become a feeder organisation for the FAI and nor would it ever amount to that unless this problem starts happening on a far larger scale than currently but compensation is better than other suggestions of locking 14-15 year old kids in NI to their national team for life which FIFA definitely wouldn't agree to. It's also better than the current situation. I don't see a problem if a kid wants to switch to the ROI team from the NI setup, he should have the same options open to him as all other kids playing international football throughout the world (I think currently any player can change international teams if they haven't received a senior cap). Surely if the argument is that the IFA devoted it's resources to the development of these players then compensation can address that complaint. Forcing them to remain NI players is not an alternative option.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?

;)

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Why must we conclude that ? My attitude obviously has more to do with my age, I remember Billy Binghams era in charge, an era of blatant sectarianism (chants etc.), and so am sceptical of this huge shift, that is not to say it is not happening of course.
I personally don't give a flying fúck who plays for NI.

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

"It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid?"

A chat with the kid and his parents?

"Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road."

What is unfair is that the IFA are coaching and grooming players for the FAI to utilise at a later date. That has got to stop.


"I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same"

I would have thought it was a nationalist/republican from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Unionist/Loyalist.

Being someone who doesn't really understand the differences between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, I tend to think the issue is one of national identity rather than denominational allegiance.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

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You are wrong.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Speak to FIFA (e..

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I'm sure both the IFA and the FAI will be doing so, prior to representatives from both Associations sitting down together and amicably agreeing a way forward to the mutual satisfaction of both.;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

You are wrong.

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Not for the first time either :D

On a lighter note:
Ian Paisley is in a coma for 10 years, he wakes up with Ian jnr. at his side.
"What's been happening for the last 10 yrs. son"

"Oh Da, it's terrible, there's a united Ireland now, we all have to speak Irish, and most of our church has converted to catholicism"

"That's unbelievable" says the big man.

"But Da, its not all bad news" says Ian jnr.
"Linfield won the cup again".

"Thats great son, what was the score ?"

"2-10 to 5 points " !!

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Perhaps the IFA should ask itself a different question to one the some of you seem to be tackling:

Instead of "What can these players offer us, and how can we protect our investment"

to

"What can we do to provide better to support young players in our community"

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The IFA asked itself the latter question some time ago, and are very pro active in supporting young players throughout Northern Ireland.

Not really the issue tho, is it?

I deleted my last message.

If everything is as good as previous posts suggest, then this 'problem' between NI and RoI will only be temporary. RoI are slipping down the FIFA rankings while NI are going the other way. Most players would declare for the more successful team I presume, and at the moment there is very little contest.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

Not for the first time either :D

On a lighter note:
Ian Paisley is in a coma for 10 years, he wakes up with Ian jnr. at his side.
"What's been happening for the last 10 yrs. son"

"Oh Da, it's terrible, there's a united Ireland now, we all have to speak Irish, and most of our church has converted to catholicism"

"That's unbelievable" says the big man.

"But Da, its not all bad news" says Ian jnr.
"Linfield won the cup again".

"Thats great son, what was the score ?"

"2-10 to 5 points " !!

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Deary, deary me - the old ones are the best eh?

Anyway, has "The Big Man":rolleyes: not been in some sort of a coma for over 50 years, never mind 10?

Here's a true story:

In October 2004, Football Association of Ireland CEO Fran Rooney upset many in the North with a joke denigrating the North's soccer team. Prior to the Republic's recent game against the Faroe Islands he told journalists of the boy who, when asked what his father did for a living, replied that he was a stripper in a gay bar. The punch line was that the boy was too embarrassed to say that his father was a member of the Northern Ireland soccer team.


I hope the FAI are reminded of that by Messrs Wells & Boyce when the two Associations meet to iron out the eligibility issues soon.

I wouldnt worry about him too much(Rooney), he left both Baltimore and the FAI under a cloud.I can understand where people have aproblem with this issue.Andy O brien constantly gets mentioned as somebody who chose England as his first country(u21 I think).Incidentally, remember last year the managment of ROIu19 were furious last year when a NOI player commited a brutal tackle on Bohs Mark Keane, smashing his leg to pieces.That player was M O'Conner of Crewe who has since declared for the Republic.Rule should be you decide when you are eighteen and no changing after that.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?

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Though brought up in NI and developed through the IFA under-age teams, Kernaghan and both his parents were born in England. The IFA did not at that time accept Grandparents (AK's were from NI) as being eligible to qualify him, so turned him down for the senior team (shortsighted clowns)
Consequently, Kernaghan turned to the FAI, who were prepared to give him his chance. Fair play to them both.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The IFA asked itself the latter question some time ago, and are very pro active in supporting young players throughout Northern Ireland.

Not really the issue tho, is it?

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That is positive so.

However I'd suggest it becomes the issue if the IFA energy & time is spent trying to hand cuff young players.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

The ROI could not give a damn about their background, only if they could kick a ball reasonably straight.

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I agree entirely. My concern is not that the FAI cares about political or religious matters; rather it is that they don't give a damn about anything, in their efforts to produce the best possible team for themselves.
Which means they may be covertly "tapping up" (even inducing?) young NI-born players who otherwise are happy to play for us.
And if this is so, they will only dare approach kids from a Nationalist background, who are much less likely to "blow the whistle" (McKenna and Baird excepted).
The effect of which, intended or otherwise, is to discriminate against any young NI Prod who might fancy his chances with the ROI (unlikely, I know, but the principle remains).
More seriously, if continued, this policy could eventually lead to a "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland (ROI) and a "Protestant/Unionist" team (NI).:eek:

And the IFA is the Association which continuously has to defend itself against charges of discrimination? :(

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Originally Posted by youngirish

They couldn't which is the point I made. So are you agreeing with me that its nonsense to suggest on a screening process because it would lead to abuses due to political/religious affiliations, or disagreeing?

I was never suggesting that the IFA should become a feeder organisation for the FAI and nor would it ever amount to that unless this problem starts happening on a far larger scale than currently but compensation is better than other suggestions of locking 14-15 year old kids in NI to their national team for life which FIFA definitely wouldn't agree to. It's also better than the current situation. I don't see a problem if a kid wants to switch to the ROI team from the NI setup, he should have the same options open to him as all other kids playing international football throughout the world (I think currently any player can change international teams if they haven't received a senior cap). Surely if the argument is that the IFA devoted it's resources to the development of these players then compensation can address that complaint. Forcing them to remain NI players is not an alternative option.

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Re your first para, I never suggested any sort of "screening" process. I don't see how it could work and I wouldn't agree even if it could. Clear?

Re your second Para, why would the FAI pay compensation unless they felt there was some sort of obligation? And if there were such obligation, since the players would only ever go one way and the money the other, that is in effect setting up a feeder Association.

Frankly, we do not want money, we want young players who play for us because they want to. If there are other kids who want to play for somebody else, then fair enough, let them do so.
Just don't let us waste our time and money on coaching kids who are only going to benefit someone else, at the same time as taking places that more committed, if less talented, kids would die for.

some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will

What utter rubbish. This is the sort of claptrap that you would expect from a unionist/loyalist politician, rather than a football fan.

Please provide some evidence for the above statement, if you can't, stop talking b**ls.

Darron Gibson from Derry has spoken several times on the issue. He talks of growing up supporting Ireland and going to internationals at Lansdowne, his family support Ireland , his community support Ireland , his city supports Ireland. The only influence Gibson came under was the influence of wanting to be like his hero Roy keane, who he wants to emulate on the international stage.

Marc Wilson from Lurgan was interviewed last week regarding his appearance in Don Given’s u21 squad, Wilson said it was the natural decision for him as he had grown up supporting Ireland and he was very comfortable within the set up.

Both players have been in the Ireland set up for the last couple of years, so I’m not sure why their decision is becoming an issue ‘to some’ now.

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Originally Posted by Jamjar

Why must we conclude that ? My attitude obviously has more to do with my age, I remember Billy Binghams era in charge, an era of blatant sectarianism (chants etc.), and so am sceptical of this huge shift, that is not to say it is not happening of course.
I personally don't give a flying fúck who plays for NI.

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

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Have you ever been to an NI game, either in the Bingham era, or recently? I guess not. In which case, why do you remain sceptical, rather than open-minded, about all the evidence of the huge shift which so many people, neutral and authoritative, have documented? Indeed, why are you sceptical about the evidence of Neil Lennon himself? After all, as one of the victims most affected by former sectarianism etc, you might expect him to be the last person to come out and acknowledge change, as he so clearly has. Then again, he's probably not a sceptic.

As for your comment on Clingan, I'm afraid judging people by their name is "So 1980's, darling". These days, we have electronic scanners up here which automatically measure the distance between peoples eyes.

So maybe you are wrong...

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Originally Posted by co. down green

some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will

What utter rubbish. This is the sort of claptrap that you would expect from a unionist/loyalist politician, rather than a football fan.

Please provide some evidence for the above statement, if you can't, stop talking b**ls.

Darron Gibson from Derry has spoken several times on the issue. He talks of growing up supporting Ireland and going to internationals at Lansdowne, his family support Ireland , his community support Ireland , his city supports Ireland. The only influence Gibson came under was the influence of wanting to be like his hero Roy keane, who he wants to emulate on the international stage.

Marc Wilson from Lurgan was interviewed last week regarding his appearance in Don Given’s u21 squad, Wilson said it was the natural decision for him as he had grown up supporting Ireland and he was very comfortable within the set up.

Both players have been in the Ireland set up for the last couple of years, so I’m not sure why their decision is becoming an issue ‘to some’ now.

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I would be astonished if youngsters in many parts of NI were not coming under these sorts of pressures - on both sides of the divide. I am not saying that all succumb to them, nor that those from a Nationalist background (such as Gibson and Wilson) are acting in any way other than of their own free will.

But when kids from Nationalist areas are buying NI tops these days, but are wary about wearing them in their own community, it is "blind" not to recognise there may be a problem. In particular, we have recently seen Sinn Fein politicians commenting in faintly threatening terms on this whole issue, when the same individuals never previously expressed a damned bit of interest in the game.

As for evidence (of pressure in one direction, or inducements from the other), by definition this is going to be hard to produce. However, statements by Baird and McKenna are evidence.

And while I accept entirely your point about Gibson and Wilson, why are other players (Kane & O'Connor, for instance), suddenly opting for the ROI, when previously they were happy to represent NI on numerous occasions?

Unless, of course, they don't feel they good enough to get a game for NI these days? ;)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In particular, we have recently seen Sinn Fein politicians commenting in faintly threatening terms on this whole issue, when the same individuals never previously expressed a damned bit of interest in the game.

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They were "warning" the IFA about "private lobbying" of FIFA over the issue EG.

They must have been right ****ed off when their recent request to privately lobby the IFA about forming a United Ireland team were put in the dustbin at Windsor Avenue.;)

The one good thing that comes out of all of this, is that it should finally kill any more crap being talked about a "United" Ireland side.

It copperfastens the future of the two Associations for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by crc

GSTQ and the flag are still issues that need to be resolved, but if you genuinely do not realise that things have changed for the better, then I think that you have the problem.

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so it's not 'as bad', so what? hardly a lot to celebrate, cos as you said the major issues still stand.

Just because Lennon is not there to embarrass the bigots does not mean things have changed greatly....

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Originally Posted by crc

Take the fact that sectarian songs are no longer sung at WP (maybe by individual idiots, but not by the crowd).
Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops).

Do you remember November '93? And have you seen any of the recent games? There's simply no comparison.

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have they played us recently? would you expect, in this climate, anything like '93? i surely wouldnt....

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Originally Posted by crc

On the issue of northern players declaring for the Republic, I don't think they should be restricted at all, but I can see the IFA's point. They are a small association (unlike the English FA, another place the Republic 'pinches'* from) and they should rightly expect to get the international players from their meagre resources.

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?

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if they want to try and recuruit - fire away, but there's no reciprocal situation, as if you didn't know. there's no dual nationality, no disputes etc... but if they wanted to pick the dregs and people here who wanted to play for them fire away, but as you and i know, there are few dublin, cork, galway players who'd like to run out and stand for GSTQ.

if they get fellas from here with belfast born parents fire away, why not?
i do, however, sympathise with their 'plight' but can only say, tough. maybe if it were a more representative ass then things might not be as they are...

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

They were "warning" the IFA about "private lobbying" of FIFA over the issue EG.

They must have been right ****ed off when their recent request to privately lobby the IFA about forming a United Ireland team were put in the dustbin at Windsor Avenue.;)

The one good thing that comes out of all of this, is that it should finally kill any more crap being talked about a "United" Ireland side.

It copperfastens the future of the two Associations for the foreseeable future.

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they were looking after the rights of young irishmen to proclaim their national identity without pressure from an unrepresentative association.

of course the IFA were not going to be interested in the united team:rolleyes:

was the 'united' team any more alive in recent months than now?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

More seriously, if continued, this policy could eventually lead to a "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland (ROI) and a "Protestant/Unionist" team (NI).:eek: (

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hahahahahahahahahahah **breath** ahahahhahahahahhahahahhahaha imagine a team being represented by the majority religion in either jurisdiction!?!? call in the police!

fwiw, there will never be a religious breakdown in the south, though i'd wager 90% are catholics anyhow, albeit prob about 5% bother with it.

and why, now, is ther suddenly a worry that the NI team would represent unionism!!? it always has and will for the forseeable future!

Similar goings on between Mexico and the US - kids of Mexican descent, born in the US and gone through the US acadmies and represented the US at youth level are being scouted out and called up by Mexico:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423414

Merc 67,

"so it's not 'as bad', so what?"

It's actually very good.

"Just because Lennon is not there to embarrass the bigots does not mean things have changed greatly...."

Yip. This has been acknowledged by Neil Lennon - perhaps the biggest victim of the bigots.

"they were looking after the rights of young irishmen to proclaim their national identity without pressure from an unrepresentative association"

Oh right - political intervention and pressure then.:rolleyes:

It may be lost on you, but I'm an Irishman too.;)

How, exactly, are the IFA "unrepresentative"?

"of course the IFA were not going to be interested in the united team"

Of course not - why then did a political party seek meetings with the IFA to discuss this non runner?:eek:

"was the 'united' team any more alive in recent months than now?"

It comes and goes, doesn't it? Hopefully when this matter is resolved, it'll fade away.

"and why, now, is ther suddenly a worry that the NI team would represent unionism!!? it always has and will for the forseeable future!"

Erm - because we're very proud that our teams at all levels, do, and always have, included players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland?

I wouldn't expect ANY true republicans to support our teams under any circumstances - no matter what the anthem, flag etc - it would be sooooo not republican. The teams represent Northern Ireland, you see.

Come to think of it, I don't understand why true republicans support the ROI team either. Still, better the partitionist team you know eh?

Co Down Green.

Snap.:eek:

http://www.oneteaminireland.co.uk

:D

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Originally Posted by co. down green

http://oneteaminireland.bravehost.com/

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

http://www.oneteaminireland.co.uk

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I wish there was only one team in Ireland, and in an ideal world I wouldn't mind if that team were the one that is currently called the Republic of Ireland (this would somehow involve the disappearance of the N.Ireland team). But it isn't an ideal world, and the NI team will not just disappear because of some uni-lateral action by the Republic, and consequently we could easily drift towards a situation with a de-facto nationalist international team, and a de-facto unionist international team. If that happenned, you would find that the prospects of an actual all-Ireland international team (one to which everyone could unambiguously give their allegiance) would be even more remote than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by crc

But it isn't an ideal world, and the NI team will not just disappear because of some uni-lateral action by the Republic, and consequently we could easily drift towards a situation with a de-facto nationalist international team, and a de-facto unionist international team. If that happenned, you would find that the prospects of an actual all-Ireland international team (one to which everyone could unambiguously give their allegiance) would be even more remote than it currently is.

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Absolutely spot on crc.