Do you really really believe those statements?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
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Do you really really believe those statements?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Yes I do believe he's better than Lehman and so do the professional players in the Premiership judging from the team of the season last year. Are you one of these heads that believes just because he's playing for a better team he must be a better player? What do you base that on? A few good games in the Champions League last season? How long have you been watching football? He was terrible for Arsenal in previous seasons. Wenger dropped him on numerous occasions and was trying to get rid of him at one point. How quickly people forget.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Yeah but youngirish you did say if he was playing behind the Chelsea defence that he would never condede which is a foolish statement.
Well taking into account the ambition of the better club you would think they would be looking for the best goalkeeper on offer? and taking into account the ambition of the player you would think he would want to play at the highest level available to him?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
So that is what I would base it on.
Also you could use the exact same statement bout Lehman being dropped and apply it to Given.
I do however agree with you that if Given had the chelsea defence in front of him he would never concede a goal.
Or an exaggeration for effect. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Yeah so Van De Sar was pure s**te when he was playing for Fulham but now he's brilliant because he plays for United? Tim Howard and Fabien Barthez were brilliant also were they when playing for United? Much better than Given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
I hate that British media bulls**t attitude that the better clubs have all the best players in every position. Rubbish. All their players played for poorer clubs at some earlier stage in their careers anyway. And many will be playing for poorer clubs in the not too distant future again. If all their players were better in every position they would never be beaten by the lesser clubs. The best clubs usually have more world class players than the lesser clubs (who still often might have one or two) and a number that are no better and sometimes worse than what's available to the rest (JOS being a perfect example).
No you couldn't. When are we talking about exactly? About 5 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Yeah I thought that was obvious. Some people on this site are overly pedantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
It is no more foolish however than the Lehman is better than Given statement when Given has been voted the best keeper in the Premiership twice while Lehman wasn't even getting his game regularly for Arsenal up until last season.
I think the original point here was that our squad was not so good that we should be surprised we dont qualify.
In terms of qualityof footbal I think the only team that have a significantly better quality of player in Europe are:
Italy
France
Germany
Holland
Spain
England
Portugal
Czech Republic(?)
Now you could argue our relative squad strength against:
Belgium, Poland, Croatia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Serbia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Israel.
That means we have a squad somewhere between the 9th and 23rd best in Europe. Thats a team which should have a good chance of qualifying.
What we are missing is
An onfield leader
A tactical plan
Coaching
Commitment
So I dont agree we have poor players, I think we have a very poor team.
if given is so great how come no big club has ever come in for him? thats the point I am making.
and I dont think there was ever a doubt over Van De Saars (formerly of juve and Ajax and WC and Euro Semi Finalists Holland) class. The Given Lehman comparison still stands. your on the internet look it up:rolleyes: And Tim Howard was given a chance at united, found wanting and then gotten rid of. Barthez won a WC and a European Cup and has a runners up medal from the last WC. Shay Given has won what exactly?
I think Lehmann's a terribly overrated keeper. He makes more mistakes in a season than Given has made in his career. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Are u having a laugh! you put us level with Sweden!! Oh lads, the naievety and sheer stupidity of some in this country is quite sad really. Sweden are on a different planet to us. Our level is Wales, Norn Iron, Cyprus, Belguim etc etc.....Portugal Sweden Denmark are way ahead of us now.
We beat Sweden 3-0 seven months ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
it was a bloody friendly!!! We are the ONLY country in the world to take them serisously! If we were to play Sweden in a qualifier tomorrow i dread to think what would happen
I don't care how Given stacks up against any other keepers on club form or which club he plays for.
I would not swap him for any other keeper in the world for Ireland. Not one.
why exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
yes we should do better than northern ireland. possibly even wales.
but why should we expect to do better than scotland? they seem to be coming back for a horrnedous 15 years or so but prior to this they had a pedigree as one of european football powerhouses who qualified consistently for major tournaments (granted they were useless at them but they usually were there). they have a larger population (not by much granted), a fully professional league where teams qualify for the CL group stages every year and their sports people only really compete in 2 sports (soccer and rugby).
Just because we've been better than them for the last decade does not mean we should always be better than them.
Personally I think there was. At least I doubted him anyway! I don't think he covered himself in glory at Juve at all, and playing for Juve in itself doesn't guarantee your class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
He was quite error prone at times over the years, but as he's aged he's got better. He's a good example opf a keeper peaking in his 30s.
100% agree. The arsenal fans I know would swap Lehmann for Given any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Sweden took it seriously enough, 2 of the defenders that played that day got dropped from their world cup squadQuote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
i agree fully with cavan fans posting , we certainly have the players, i don't see us qualifying for the next two tournaments and that is an absolute scandal given the talent available to us.
Will u please tell me who these "players" are
newcastles goalie, a man city defender, a liverpool full back, a newcastle winger and a spurs some time striker is it???
Ya....class!!!!
who else??????
They didnt look to be taking it seriously at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
That Shay Given post was one of the few posts I've read in this thread. I'm trying to avoid it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I dont think he had a shocker of a season or anything they just wanted Buffon. Point I was making is youngirish was using van der saar as an example of someone who is not suddenly a good player over night because he moved from fulham to man u. when in fact he had always played for europes top teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I dont think anyone is saying we are near Sweden's level of performance. As a team we are at best on a par with Scotland/Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
The point here is that the plyaers we have are as good (I believe) as those available to many other teams in Europe, including Sweden, who are far more succesful than us.
If that is the case then the problem is with the management.
I just dont agree with Stans line that we should not be disappointed if we dont qualify as we dont have the players at the moment.
Ok Cavan man, serously my friend, tell me, who are these GOOD players we supposedly have, cos i count 3 MAYBE 4 at a stretch
In that context I accept your point. I'm a bit of a goalie watcher (sad) & throughout the 90s I always thought he was a good but error prone keeper. Maybe not even error prone, but there were many occasions where i felt he could have done better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
I think he has improved with age & experience but I felt this at Fulham too, not just since he moved to Man U.
Most goalies do tho dont they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
thats why I think we havent seen the best of given yet...
Ok lets be HONEST
Our one EXCELLENT player is our bloody keeper
Dunne is a decent premiership defender playing for a mediocre club
Finnan is a fairly solid full back playing for a relatively poor team by top standards
Duff is a potentially good player, but he has lost his way. Never a superstar but can be decent enough if he is bothered, no ambition
Keane is a potentially very good player but too fond of his own press and certainly no captain
McGeady is the great white hope
Thats it!
One great player, the goalie. A few could be's and the rest are PISH
Basically as Kurt Angle would say, WE SUCK!
Alan O brien isnt even in the newcastle 22 for tonight's game
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
What is wrong with people being on the optimistic side. YOu seem to take great pleasure in saying we are rubbish. The fact you are using slang like pish hints that you may in fact be from Scotland and here as a wind up but I could easily be wrong about that. Anyway some people like to be optimistic about the future others like to be pessimistic about it. Both can debate their points in harmony. I think what everybody is agreed upon regardless of whether we have a terrible team, a good team, an average team or a very good team is that Staunton is not best man to guide us over the next few years.
A bit off the point but received this email today ...........
Heard a brilliant one today. One of the lads in here was talking to
Wayne Henderson on Sunday..he's his cousin. He was telling him about the
other night against the Czechs. At half time, in the dressing room some
of the players were laughing, joking and saying how well they were
playing.
Paul Mcshane, a 20 year old making his debut jumped up and screamed at
them. His exact words were apparently "all of yiz shut the f*ck up and
sit down, its only half time, don't start licking each others f*cking
balls yet"...and they all did as they were told. Staunton just looked at
them and said "do I need say any more?" and walked out.
ceannaire , i hope you are on the wind up
shay given robbie keane damien duff and steve finnan are far better players than anyone on the scotland and NI teams apart from shaun maloney .
sadly our team is not performing. if our manager can get them to do so then we will be back in action and back up to the top 15-25 in the world where we belong
Great story about McShane
If thats true, promote him to captain straight away:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Collyontour
Most international teams we should be aspiring to have the same level of players as we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
A typical mid European team will have 1/2 star players, 2/3 solid performers at league level and filler players.
Slovakia are better than us and have Stan Varga in Central Defence. Is he any better than Andy O'Brien??
I'll keep saying it, the argument that our players are not good enough is just an excuse for Stan to drift along and fail to qualify.
When was the last time the "world class" Damien Duff scored an important goal......for anyone......?
Its such a pain in the arse reading the Irish media talk about what a world class player he is! He is in his ring! Playing for newcastle, beating no body anymore. He had the potantial to he, but he never delivered.
Mc Shane can't even get into the West Brom team so he's hardly the saviour in central defence we've been waiting for. Saying that I'd play him instead of Andy big nose.
That story sounds like a load of balls btw. I seriously doubt McShane would be so vocal in the dressing room at half time in his first senior appearance.
He's still better than anyone (yes anyone) Northern Ireland, Scotland, Slovakia or Wales have and they are all doing much better than us at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by an_ceannaire
Fact is we'd have definitely beaten Cyprus and probably the Czechs with anywhere near our first 11 available and a half decent manager and if that occurred you'd be saying how great our players are.
We have a good first 11 overall which if used properly are more than good enough to qualify for a major tournament. There is no need to persist with shi*te like O'Shea, we have alternatives who are better. Our manager is pure s**te. That's our main problem.
How many World Class players do Germany have? I'd only list Ballack for certain (possibly Lahm) yet they on current form are one of the best teams in the world. Duff, Finnan, Given, Dunne and Keane would all have a strong stake for a place in the German first 11. Get rid of the ginger tosser and much of the current problems will resolve themselves.
Better than Giggs?
better than bellamy? i dotn feckin think so!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Where is the evidence he cant get in the team he has been suspended for the last 2 games due to a sending off versus Leeds.