Bertie's Money

Bertie was laughable last night with his crocadile tears. How can it be a loan, if you've never paid any interest or the capital back?

Has to be serious questions about the tax. No reason why a Minister for Finance, earning £70,000 a year couldn't have easily got a loan for that amount. And if not then, he could have insisted on paying back the loan in the mean time.

His blather about appointing people because they were his friends not because of donations is just bizarre - sure never mind them being the best for the job.

No one seems to want to get into it, and the actual personal issues around the seperation is irrelevant, however, could he have issues in the family court too? Not sure of the process, but I would've thought that any settlement would've been based on his income and assets at the time, which he had just increased by £40k...

It appears at least one on the list was a mutual friend of Bertie and Frank Dunlop...

http://www.irishelection.com/09/bertie-12-apostles/

So he gets a "loan", doesn't pay any of it back or pay any tax on it and appoints friends to high powered positions :eek: :rolleyes:

In any other profession that would classed as corruption...simple as.

Off course being politics though, they will find a way of claiming it is all above board.....

I would say at this stage the opposition parties can't believe their luck. I think FG didn't comment on the interview last night - probably so much rich pickings they want to ensure they used to maximum political gain.

It may seem like a small matter but political careers have been destroyed on lesser details. The more i think of i could see him resigning over this if drags on much longer.

Charges so far:
- Did not pay taxes on gift
- Appoints people to state positions because they are friends.

:eek:

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can someone change it please? :o

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Originally Posted by Schumi

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can some one change it please? :o

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I was about to ask could the two people who voted 'loan' explain their logic. But seeing as you've cleared that up .... that just leaves... :eek: :confused:

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Originally Posted by pete

I would say at this stage the opposition parties can't believe their luck. I think FG didn't comment on the interview last night

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Enda Kenny said something on the late news alright, but I'm sure they're saving up the best for today.

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Originally Posted by Macy

His blather about appointing people because they were his friends not because of donations is just bizarre - sure never mind them being the best for the job.

...

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Am glad someone else noticed this. my jaw dropped when I heard it. surely he just admitted to appointing people on the basis that they were his mates? does this not open up a whole new problem for him?
he actually came accross as someone who was lying and he had something to hide. very bad performance.

Ivor Callelly got the (Bertie Sponsored) shaft because one of his "friends" painted his house.

He would have been better to keep his mouth shut about his state appointees & just say was a gift he forgot to declare for tax...

Then again i love the quote "...I know the tax laws as I am an accountant..." :D :D

Well clearly he not a very good accountant is he... :rolleyes:

havent read the whole thread but did anyone else notice how phoney the "holding back the tears" bit was ?!?!?!

talk about contrived

I could just see it now - Mara, Bunny Carr, Terry Prone all surrounding the g0b****e and saying - "if he asks any awkward questions - play the seperation card - and you gotta sell it - ure trembling hand and attempt at tears will save you!"

even at that it looked utterly unconvincing - Ahern hasnt a sincere bone in his body!

I only came into half way through at 9pm but my first thought was "...is he crying...?"

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wws

I could just see it now - Mara, Bunny Carr, Terry Prone all surrounding the g0b****e and saying - "if he asks any awkward questions - play the seperation card - and you gotta sell it - ure trembling hand and attempt at tears will save you!"

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I suppose that explains what he been doing over the weekend...

Those non-stick teflon pans are great but once the first bit of the teflon scratches off not much use left in them... :o

Just watching him on Oireachtas.ie and he's trying to eat time repeating ad nauseum the allegations he's had to fend from the mahon tribunal.

repeating his assertion that these are loans and that there's interest due on them.

[QUOTE=drinkfeckarse;541134]Why would a leading politician need a "loan" to cover his separation costs?? He was hardly skint.....

I take it you havent gone throgh the separtion/ divorce then. You realise how quickly you can become skint.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can someone change it please? :o

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Believe it or not I did something similar. Used the shift and space bar too quickly. I did mean to choose gift. Can this be changed please mods?
Ta

I voted gift because a loan that you don't have to pay back is clearly a gift.

More important though is what the tax law says. If he broke the tax law he has to go, without any question. The tax person on primetime last night said that there wouldn't be any tax due and Bertie said the same so maybe that's true. If he didn't break the law, then the opposition is on much weaker ground.

You couldn't make this stuff up. For those old enough it sounds like a corrupt Camberwick Green. Windy Miller, Mickey the Baker and now Paddy the Plasterer. Not forgetting Bertie the Bluffer!

Saw Charlie Chawke on the news the other day saying it was a loan and
Bertie offered to pay it back many times but he refused. When the news
reporter suggested that that was in essence a gift he denied it as Bertie
offered to pay it back, so it was a loan in his mind.
That was the 1st time I've ever seen this Chawke guy and he seems a
proper tool. Abeit a rich proper tool !!!

He then went on to say if Bertie wanted to pay it back now he'd take it.
I suppose that would get around the whole loan/gift. I think it was £2,500 punts

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gift  –noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

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loan -noun
2. something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, esp. a sum of money lent at interest: a $1000 loan at 10 percent interest.

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We now have a Taoiseach who doesn't understand the different between a loan and a gift & a person who when Minister for Finance either was unaware of tax law or broke that law.

:rolleyes:

(If anyone wants their vote changed PM me...)

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Originally Posted by Schumi

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can someone change it please? :o

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fuuny, i made that same mistake!:confused:

Maybe Bertie's mouse slipped too. He ment to apply for a loan but he clicked gift??? :D

As many mistakes here as Bertie made ffs...

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Originally Posted by pete

We now have a Taoiseach who doesn't understand the different between a loan and a gift & a person who when Minister for Finance either was unaware of tax law or broke that law.

:rolleyes:

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The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

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If that is true then out tax laws are stupid. I wouldn't expect much else from the Revenue Commissioners who have proven to be completely inept at collecting taxes off politicians in the past.

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pete

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?

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I don't know about here, but certainly loans that have subsequently been written off have been a favoured method by New Labour in the UK to get around their donation laws. Wouldn't be surprised if that method was used here too, and you can have no doubt if there's a loophole FF would've found it.

Actually, didn't Lowry actually try and claim that, and was told by Bertie himself to produce the documentation to prove it was a loan and that he intended to repay it?

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

Seems like the opposition will now go after him based on his story that received money for public speaking that he lodged in his personal bank account. Reading today in the IT & they saying eh said he did not have a personal bank account during his separation - where did his wages get lodged? :confused:

Suppose the problem with lying to hide something is that hard to stop the lies then...

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Originally Posted by pete

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

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Spot on.

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

bearing in mind him resigning doesnt necessarily mean an election, as the next Fianna Fail leader could lead the same government.

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Originally Posted by pete

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

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It's one thing doing it, as all parties do when in Government*, quite another to use it as some sort of defence. I mean the others can say the best man for the job in their opinion, rather than sure he likes a pint in Fagan's give him the job.

*although not so many as sneaky to appoint people after the Dail has risen as happened in 2002

Not at all!

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Originally Posted by Strabane_Harp

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

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Surely if he resigned as Taoiseach he would resign as FF leader? If he only resigned as Taoiseach would need new election.

no uve misunderstood me.

If he steps down as Taoiseach and Fianna Fail leader, it wont lead to a general election. The new Leader of Fianna Fail could continue on in Coalition with Satan, sorry i mean the PD's :p

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.

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I'd need a tax book in front of me to answer that fully (and obviously spend more time answering you and thereby charging you more), but there is Gift Tax (Capital Acquisitions Tax), so it doesn't necessarily qualify as income, which would be taxed at a higher rate. 1993 CAT rates are on the Revenue site. However, it would still have to be declared and returned, whch this appears not to have been (I'm basing that on the fact that if it had been declared, someone would have said it). There's penalties for not declaring information on tax returns.

I don't think the exact sum has come out yet; it's "between E50,000 and E100,000" according to the ireland.com article. CAT would work out at about 30%, say, so that's at least E16,666 due plus interest and penalties going back 13 years, which may well double the amount. Not huge, but obviously it's the principle.

I don't know what the exact definition of a "Gift" is, but you would have to imagine that something which is freely being described as a gift is a gift. Certainly, common sense says that it's a gift and not income, and tax law (as with all law) does try and apply common sense.

That's my view of it anyway; I'm sure Bertie's accountant is more qualified than me!

If Chawke is telling the truth then Bertie saw it as a loan and did no wrong surely? Except for not declaring it for tax if he had to?

I think you're missing a set of inverted commas there.

That's why I said if.;)

Anyway why am I here?:confused:

New statement from Bertie here.

Bertie's affairs (no, not that one ;) ) make the Diary page in this morning's Guardian:

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Originally Posted by Simon Hoggart, Guardian

The annual Irish embassy party at the Labour conference took place on Tuesday, just after it emerged that Bertie Ahern had been accepting large and generous loans from friends. Word quickly zipped around the room that you could buy in Dublin a garment labelled "Been there, done that, bought the Taoiseach".

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:D

:ball: PP

Sure the same t-shirt (Ben there, Dunne that, bought the Taoiseach) was around ten years ago.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Sure the same t-shirt (Ben there, Dunne that, bought the Taoiseach) was around ten years ago.

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So what does that say about the calibre or probity of Irish politicians then?

:ball: PP