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Don't agree that it was a decent performance. 2 poor teams on the night. 1-0 away to germany when you look at it doesn't have disaster written all over it, but there were not many positives to be taken from that game. The front 6 with the exception of Doyle were poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
If we play agaisnt cyprus the way we played agaisnt germany we will lose. losing is a habit and we have lost three games in a row now.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
If we persist with O'Shea & Kilbane in CM we'll go nowhere. If we play midfielders in midfield we can only play better.
PaulB, you say there were not many positives & that the front 6, ex-Doyle, were poor. Does that mean that the back 5, plus Doyle, were good? At least that's positive, no? :) Add a functional central midfield partnership & I'd expect Robbie & Duff would perform better too.
Whether Staunton has the savvy to put this right is anyone's guess at the moment.
I disagree. If we put in the same performance against Cyprus, they'll hardly get a shot on goal and we'll win. We limited the Germans on their home patch to a few half chances and Given had to make only one top class save. We could have gained a point in the last minute with Dunne's header.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
As for losing becoming a habit, there is a certain truth in that. But then winning in friendlies became a habit under Kerr which couldn't be translated in competitive games. All that counts are the competitive games. The defence played well against Germany and when you consider the dearth of talent in the central midfield area we did reasonably well against one of the strongest teams in the world.
Fingers crossed for Cyprus and the Czech Republic and that the likes of Keane and Duff will regain some form and avoid injury. As for central midfield, I defy any world class manager to come in and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Kerr lost one competitive game in the last campaign to the team that lost the world cup on penalties! yet you seem to think he had to go but staunton is showing signs for optimism by losing to germany?
joke.
we didnt create anything agaisnt germany and god help us if containing the cypriots and limiting their chances will be our aim when we go there...dunne had a header. it didnt go in. he could have had the same header ten times and missed it ten times...hanging on to that as cause for optimism is a joke.
You asked for one sign of optimism. I gave it to you. Careful what you ask for - you might get it. Remind me where I said "Kerr had to go". I also said I didn't agree with Staunton's appointment but only knee jerkers should demand the dismissal of someone 1 competitive game in to a campaign. JokeQuote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
I agree we didn't create much against Germany but I wouldn't have expected to. Who said the only aim is to limit Cyprus' chances. That is one aim and I certainly hope we do it better than the last visit there. Snuff them out and impose our game. That's what I would hope for on the basis of our performance against Germany but unless we have someone creative in midfield it will be difficult.
You must have a sore chin from all your knee jerks :D
It's all well & good picking holes in the argument that it's not all doom & gloom Bill, and quite frankly I enjoy reading your posts, but how about offering something positive?
Here's our situation. How would Bill look to improve it?
How I'd improve it?
Take on board a new 'mentor' for Staunton whilst Bobby Robson recovers. Ideally this person is not Bryan Robson.
Staunton then needs to call back Lee Carsley and tell Kevin Kilbane/John O'Shea "thanks for your efforts lads but we won't be needing you for the next 2 games or so".
6 points later Irish football hits a high not seen since WC 2002. The end!!!!
I have already said it in another thread...
- Drop robbie keane..(he needs to learn that he has to up his game to retain his place- he hasnt performed for ireland in a long time) any of the other strikers we have should be able to score agaisnt cyprus.
- Drop kilbane and o shea they offer nothing. put two midfielders in that play regularly with their clubs. regardless of who their clubs are. personally I would play reid(i know hes injured) in there as he is a creative player and we need a bit of creative focus other than duff but would be happy with 2 midfielders with a clear understanding of what they are supposed to do. win possesion/retain possesion and feed the strikers/wingers. not just one of the three.
- stop hoofing the ball upfield and giving it back to the opposition. basically just play the way we did for first 20 mins agaisnt the germans. keep it up for 90 mins. and eventho I thought he played alrite agaisnt germany drop stephen carr and play finnan in his proper position.
- play aidean mageady and ask him to run at the opposition.
-pick a subs bench with a view to changing the game rather than just replacing like with like.
- basically make sure every player on the pitch has a clear understanding of what the hell they are supposed to be doing. that was not the case in any of the last few games under staunton...
Poor misguided owlsfan and your contrary little FAI loving Keano hating billsthoughts baiting ways………………..I dont knee jerk. I think international management is different from club management so the same principles don’t apply. you dont have as much time to get something right. if its obvious that someone isnt up to the job they should be replaced. I dont think staunton is up to the job. Therefore I think he should be let go. Its not like he has any past form. He literally never managed before and now it is obvious that he isn’t very good at it.
Good stuff. Drop our record goal scorer and replace him with any other striker (bit vague there). Can you name another striker who is scoring goals at the moment and who isn't injured, other than Doyle. So you're saying that if Staunton was replaced with your pick of manager, whoever that is, the first thing he'd do is he should replace our only proven international goal scorer. Good one Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Again a bit vague there. Replace them with anyone playing regular football with their clubs and Andy Reid who is injured. This is brilliant stuff. A masterplan of great thought and depth. What clubs (Cherry Orchard ?) and who ? I am a neither a fan of O'Shea nor Kilbane but it's not true to say they offer "nothing". Kilbane offers height in a team of pygmies and O'Shea offers some protection in front of the back four.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Hoofing the ball. Alas when we don't have players who are capable of hanging on to the ball that happens. It therefore goes back to having a central midfield of players who can hold on to the ball which we don't have. Carr you say did well but you want to drop him and move Finnan back to right full. Who goes left full? That collossus of defensive ability, Ian Harte ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Yes, with our strength in depth we can afford to have a whole range of different talents on the bench. I'd be interested to hear you expand on who you'd drop from the bench and bring on. The bench also has to cover for injuries so you need like for like as well in case you didn't realise that - you have watched football, right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Sweeping generalisation. From the game I saw in Stuttgart every player had a very clear understanding of their roll in that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
What does "your contrary little FAI loving Keano" mean :confused: ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
I agree, Staunton may not be up to the job but I'll reserve my judgement until the end of the campaign. Keep practising the knee jerks.
Having a look at this midfield. It's not such an attractive attempt at a reconstruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Play McGeady? a novice, play Any Reid in CM? who as well as being injured and can't play, doesn't play regularily with his club and unproven in CM.
Partnered by who? Steven Reid, who hasn't yet met the challenge of midfield, hasn't yet demonstrated that he is a leader type that would be needed it that midfield selection.
It's a powder puff midfield that would be trampled on by the Czechs comfortably.
Good stuff. Drop our record goal scorer and replace him with any other striker (bit vague there). IS ROBBIE KEANE SCORING GOALS AT THE MO? DID I MISS SOME SPURS GAMES? WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HE SCORED AN INTERNATIONAL GOAL AGAINST SOMEONE OF NOTE? YEAH DROP HIM. HE HASNT A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO A PLACE.
Again a bit vague there. Replace them with anyone playing regular football with their clubs and Andy Reid who is injured. This is brilliant stuff. A masterplan of great thought and depth. What clubs (Cherry Orchard ?) and who ? I am a neither a fan of O'Shea nor Kilbane but it's not true to say they offer "nothing". Kilbane offers height in a team of pygmies and O'Shea offers some protection in front of the back four.PUT IN TWO MIDFIELDERS WHO PLAY REGULARLY FOR THEIR CLUBS. LIKE YOU KNOW MIGHT ACTUALLY KNOW THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE POSITION?REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY PLAY IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP.
Hoofing the ball. Alas when we don't have players who are capable of hanging on to the ball that happens. It therefore goes back to having a central midfield of players who can hold on to the ball which we don't have. Carr you say did well but you want to drop him and move Finnan back to right full. Who goes left full? That collossus of defensive ability, Ian Harte ?
YEAH PICK A DECENT MIDFIELD. AT THE MOMENT WE ARE NOT. AND YEAH STICK HARTE IN.
Yes, with our strength in depth we can afford to have a whole range of different talents on the bench. I'd be interested to hear you expand on who you'd drop from the bench and bring on. The bench also has to cover for injuries so you need like for like as well in case you didn't realise that - you have watched football, right ?I DONT SEE WHAT ALAN O BRIEN OFFERED AGAINST THE GERMANS OTHER THAN RACING THEM TO THE LINE. THE NEW KEVIN KILBANE!
Sweeping generalisation. From the game I saw in Stuttgart every player had a very clear understanding of their roll in that game.YOUR ON YOUR OWN THERE PAL. READ ANY OF A MILLION COMMENTS ON THIS BOARD.
What does "your contrary little FAI loving Keano" mean :confused: ?
I THOUGHT IT SUMMED UP EVERY POST YOU EVER MADE QUITE NICELY.
I agree, Staunton may not be up to the job but I'll reserve my judgement until the end of the campaign. TOO LATE THEN TO QUALIFY. Keep practising the knee jerks.IT WASNT PARTICULARLY FUNNY THE FIRST TIME AND CERTAINLY ISNT NOW EITHER
Having a look at this midfield. It's not such an attractive attempt at a reconstruction.WHAT MIDFIELD? I SAID PLAY MAGEADY. I ALSO SAID I PERSONALLY WOULD PLAY ANDY REID CAUSE HE CAN ACTUALLY PLAY FOOTBALL. YOU KNOW THAT GAME WE ARE SUPPOSEDLY ENGAGED IN?????? NOT "CONTAIN THE OPPOSITION" OR "LIMIT THE SIZE OF THE DEFEAT"
Play McGeady? a novice???????HE PLAYS MORE REGULARLY FOR HIS CLUB THAN JOS!!!!!, play Any Reid in CM? who as well as being injured and can't play, doesn't play regularily with his club and unproven in CM.EMM HE WOULD BE PLAYING REGULARLY WITH CHARLTON IF HE WASNT INJURED
Partnered by who? Steven Reid, who hasn't yet met the challenge of midfield, hasn't yet demonstrated that he is a leader type that would be needed it that midfield selection.AT LEAST HE IS A MIDFIELDER
It's a powder puff midfield that would be trampled on by the Czechs comfortably.AGAIN WHAT IS OUR AIM???? TO LIMIT OUR LOSSES OR PLAY FOOTBALL??? BUILD A TEAM FOR THE FUTURE OR **** AWAYU ANOTHER CAMPAIGN ON HARD LUCK STORIES AND MORAL VICTORIES??? IS IT ANY WONDER THE TEAM LACKS ANY IMAGINATION OR GUILE WHEN THE FANS ARE SO ****ING LIMITED IN THEIR THINKING
Bill, your formatting is a mess but I guess you are the guy that's screaming.
It's a hole that some of those who hammer the management and team fall into when pressed to offer some sort of an alternative.
I wonder what amount of bollocking Stan would get if he selected a very injured Andy Reid for the next 2 games saying that 'if he was fit he would have played for his club'.
Steven Reid has only had a bit of very ordinary first team football so far this season and it's doubtfull if he will get a club game before the next two qualifiers.
the caps is just to differentiate from you and owlsfans rants.
I havent got all year to be quoting differnt parts.
As I said already, PERSONALLY I would play Andy Reid.
I didnt say he was the be all and end all of our hopes of qualifying.
And I pointed out that he was injured so therefore it was implied wouldnt be available til he was fit.
And yeah altho he hasnt been impressive so far for Ireland I would pick Stephen Reid as well. His club form at Millwall and at Blackburn when he is fit shows he is a good player. Your post just defies logic. Do you honestly think I was implying that Andy Reid should be picked in the next two games eventho he is injured? :rolleyes:
I think you're starting to see that whilst it is easy to be negative and moan a lot - it is much harder to be constructive and positive! Which two central midfielders - assuming hypothetically that everyone is fit - would you replace Kilbane and O'Shea with? Andy Reid and Stephen Reid?
I thought Robbie had a good game on Saturday at Anfield - he looked lively and sharp. Yes, he is not scoring goals but Doyle is ... I think Keane and Doyle would be our best partnership up there. Are you in favour of Morrison instead of Keane then?
eh no I dont see how??....I just said everything in the above posts.....it wasnt hard at all. it was dead easy...might apply for the job when it next comes up....Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet
Its not moaning to point out obvious flaws in the current set up. Just pointing out facts. Saying something is so just cause you want it to be so will never get you anywhere near a major tournament. The easy thing to do would be to resort to cliche and banalities...."he is in the job so let him have a fair shot at it"....."we played well agaisnt the germans" "holland game was only a freindly" yadda yadda yadda.....
there are obvious flaws in our current set up that unless they are rectified will come back to haunt us at some stage.
btw robbie keane must have had a stormer if Spurs got beat 3 - 0 by a stuttering Liverpool team..and as I said I would play two midfielders who are getting regular games for their clubs. Its noit my job to scour the divisions looking for alternatives but it is stauntons. Plan A isnt working so find a plan B. I thought Douglas looked better in the holland game than both kilbane and reid. But I would stick with Stephen Reid and look for an alternative to partner him. Why would you want to stick with Kilbane and Oshea? give me a reason???????????????????????? Kilbane is tall??? I didnt know that was a reguirement for midfield.....
Billthoughts what would you like the starting 11 and subs to be versus Czechs and Cyprus. I agree we need to get rid of Kilbane and O Shea from our midfield.
I would go for this as our first choice 11
Given
Finann O Brien Dunne (O'Shea/Harte/Kilbane/Carr) Mucy of a muchness
Mc Geady Reid Carsley/A. Reid Duff
Doyle Keane.
Oh Spurs played well on Saturday and were unlucky but there finisihing is very poor at the moment and it was never a 3-0 game. Even the most ardent Liverpool fans would say that. Liverpool did deserve to win though. I did not think Keane played that well but he was not bad either.
yeah I heard they were unlucky alrite but it was the nil part of the 3 nil I was referring to.
I would play pretty much the same team but would be looking to bring in guys from the lower leagues in midfield as back ups/future prospects.
Staunton has been basically given a blank cheque for this campaign as in he will still have a job at the end of it regarless of how he does. he should use it to bring guys in. which I think he kinda has altho he seems to be bringing in reserve/youth guys at big clubs rather than youngish lower league players. it wasnt so long ago people were writing off kavanagh as a "never will be". Personally I wouldnt be too bothered with Carsley altho I can see why people want him in. He is hitting a run of form but I dont think he offers anything new. A stop gap solution at best. I really dont think Robbie keane has been too great last couple of years for us. he needs a new role in the team that better makes use of his talents. and he deffo needs to be taken aside and told what he should and shouldnt be doing on the pitch for the good of the team. Andy O Brien has been great for us but he really needs to find a club or else he will make a mistake soon enough.
Nothing wrong with that. Ignoring San Marino, after these next 2 games we have 2 home games in March and then the crunch games 11 months from now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
I'd say we should do everything we can to get 6 points this October to keep the campaign alive.
Let our younger players develop at their clubs through the rest of the season as they'll be of more use to us then.
I dont think he offers us anything as I think he is a very limited player...
give someone else their chance.
San Marino and Cyprus should be oppurtunities to experiment....
I think the reason he wont bring in the likes of Kiely and Carsley is that it sends out the wrong message to the players he has. i.e. your not good enough.
Well who else can play the holiding role.
why do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
both midfielders should be tracking back to help out when we dont have the ball.
Ok, that's fair enough - but who? C'mon - if you're going to slaughter Staunton then offer us an alternative!! What would be your starting XI for the Cyprus game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Did you watch the game then? Fair enough if you did but surely if you didn't you really aren't in a position to comment on any of the players' performances in that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
What's a myth? What team doesn't play a holding midfielder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
every team in the history of football.
1)lets nip this slaughter stan lark in the bud straight away. the guy has lost three of his four games in charge.I think thats a valid starting point to question whats going on.maybe he will turn out to be a great manager. happy days for us all if he does. but at the moment I dont see what he has brought to the team that wasnt there before. in fact we seem to have gotten worse. its nothing personal. when he gets it right(and I think for the first 25 minutes against the germans he got it spot on) I will be as happy as everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet
2)as I said try other options. these two dont work and dont inspire confidance in the supporters.they keep giving the ball away and when you do that its not bad luck when you lose its an inevitibility.Its not my job to pick the team for the guy. he should be aware of what alternatives he has in midfield. Thats not a cop out. loads of midfielders have been named in other threads. some of them cant even make the squad! how many of them have had the amount of chances kilbane has had? can anyone ever remember o shea having a good game for ireland? I love kilbanes work rate and I think o shea is a classy footballer but I dont think either of them are working for ireland at the mo.
3)its irrelevant whether I saw the Liverpool v Spurs game or not. his team was beat 3-0. he is a striker so am saying he cant have been too spectacular given a strikers job is to score goals. I am not saying he is a poor player. he is one of the most skillfull players we have ever produced. but at some stage you gotta ask what is he actually contributing? maybe he is a victim of bad service but how many times has he been in goalscoring positions and tried something totally innapropriate instead of just sticking it in the back of the net. There is no way on earth that doyle is a better player than him but you would take doyle to score over keane any day of the week.
4)with regards the famous "holding midfielder" - there is no law that says we need to play one.we need two central midfielders that will work their socks off. If we stop giving the ball away so cheaply it wouldnt be such a big issue. If we were well organised it wouldnt be a problem. If everyone was commited to the cause it wouldnt be an issue.
Hardly a myth, more of a relatively recent phenonenon. When asked about this role, Giles has often stated that there was no designated holding player in the great Leeds team he played with, when he went forward, Bremner held back, and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Just that as the game has evolved, it has become more and more of a defined role in midfield, a player staying back, intercepting forward passes from the opposition, breaking up attacks and spraying the ball out to wingers or the other, more attacking, central midfielder.
Personally I don't think a holder is necessary. It's a fad. A midfield pairing that complements each other & is well balanced is they key. Vieira & Petit is a great example. I heard it referred to as "piston like".
I think a model that we could look to is the Joey Barton / Stephen Ireland combo that worked well at City at times last year. A tireless runner who can play a bit to complement the guy who uses the ball intelligently.
I'm becoming more & more convinced though that there's barely a paring we can put out that's competitive so a midfield 3 may be the answer (see recent selections in other posts).
fad is a great word for it. like attacking wing backs.......(or whatever was all the rage when Macarthy took over)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Both midfielders should be able to do their job. you wouldnt call viera at arsenal "just" a holding midfielder or keane for ireland in his prime either. It just seems a way of justifying putting what is essentially a limited midfield player in your team.
Every team in the history or football has not played a holiding player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Ok
makele played it
Keane in the Utd team held while Scholes went forward.
In modern day football a lot of teams have a more defensively minded player as part of the 2. Liverpool even have 2 players to do that job. Giles and Bremner were top class players and the game has changed so much. If you have an average midfield and team you need somebody who sits in front of the back four breaks up the play and gives a simple pass. Carsley has done this for Everton this season and 2 seasons ago. As a result Everton have been in good form as a result. When he was missing they struggled.
Total football is fine if you have good players but when you have average players defined roles become even more important. Jack Charlton thought we had average players and as a result liked to play centre backs in midfield. He was lucky that Mc Grath and Lawrenson were so good they could do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
We dont have anyone of the calibre of Viera, Petit, Keane, Giles Bremner, Whelans, Souness, Robson or anybody near that at the moment. So defind roles are the best way forward for now in my view.
why?
if anything due to the limited players available we should be doing the opposite.
It seems very tough to get a central midfield partnership that'll work by one going forward while the other stays back at different times in the match. I always use this as an example but Lampard and Gerrard are both excellent midfielders but even the likes of Azerbaijan can dominate possession against them. I'd love nothing more than Gravesen and Jarosik to form a superb partnership at Celtic but I just can't see it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
You'd want to have real intelligient players if you're to do it like Frings and Ballack. Even then, Frings plays the holding role for Germany with the license to get forward from time to time. We do not have to players atm so a holding midfielder is essential imo.
I'm actually struggling to think of any team that doesn't play 1 specific player in the holding role.
We've got good wide players (Duff, McGeady, Andy Reid) but our centre is fairly soft so I tend to agree that we need a bit of bite in there, personally I would have Carsley in there with Stephen Reid, Carsley gets a nosebleed if he crosses the halfway line so it would give Reid more of a licence to get forward and support the front 2.
The issue as I saw in Germany was we were too defensive in the centre both O'Shea and Kilbane were too deep so Keane kept having to come deep looking for ball, it left Doyle isolated and we ended up just hoofing long balls to a lonely striker.
I can see Stauntons point in not bringing Kiely back but Carsley would have been a shoe in for me, at the moment him and Steven Reid are our best central midfielders.
emm is this not just being a midfielder?Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
It's arguably the most important position on the pitch. You can be an excellent central midfielder but that doesn't mean you're going to be an excellent holding midfielder. Anyway, can you think of any current team that doesn't play a holding midfielder regularly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
ffs man
all you are doing is defining a midfielders role.
no I cant pick any team that plays without a midfield if that is the question you are asking..
you could probably tell me who plays midfield and what their specific midfield roles are in every team in the world but ya couldnt actually go out and play midfield if you were asked to.
I will say it again.
Both midfielders should be able to play the position they are supposed to. its not a case of one takes half and the other does the other half.
This is the point I am making. Look at any team and I think you'll find that is exactly the case. Every team I can think of plays a holding midfielder. I can't think of one team that play 2 central midfielders who have the exact same role. It's the same with the defence. One defender will lead the line and organise defence. It's not as simple as saying "you play centre mid Jim".Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Things are as simple or as complicated as you choose to make them... I dont think you know what you are on about and you think the same bout me. lets leave it at that. Am beyond caring at this stage..
its irrelevant anyway as Carsley(the answer to all our holding midfielder wet dreams) is not going to play for us again.
Vieira was never a holder, nor was Petit. Great partnership though.
I'd argue that Keane was never a holding midfielder either, he was far far more than that. The Barton/Ireland example I've cited before was an effective partnership but there's no way you can call either a holding midfielder.
If we had one, we'd play one. But we don't, so we should look at alternatives. Just give me a guy who can put himself about & who is comfortable on the ball (Douglas? but not Kilbane) and a guy who can use the ball (we've several half-decent options here). Let them develop an understanding.
The more I read above, the more I'm believing in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 to solve our midfield problems. If we don't have a pairing that's competitive, give them a hand.