What to do with the minnows

Re Greenland: UEFA stated several times that Greenland is welcome when their stadiuum (under construction in Nuuk) is finished, they will affiliate within the next couple of years.

Isle of Man and the Channel Islands do not meet the criteria of UEFA to be seen an independent nation.

Vatican City has showed interest in joining UEFA and will very likely do so in the near future.

Vatican City and Greenland already play regular games in non-FIFA tournaments, and both will very likely be into UEFA within the next 5 to 10 years maximum.

If we invite Greenland in, then why don't we allow Quebec, Bermuda, Kashmir, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Rhodes, South Ossetia?? :confused: If Greenland are considered to be in Europe when it's nearer to Canada, why don't we open the doors to anyone that considers themselves a state, in or near Europe?

This is a lean period in the credibility of International football, which is treated as a joke and a nuisance by club managers, and retired from early by players. Admitting more states in for fun, will only weaken it's value further. Vatican City, ffs. :mad: Why don't they just call it "Rome"?? Will the players go to worship sorry, play games, wearing collars??

UEFA will have lost the plot, if they allow any more obscure nations in. The qualifying groups are heavy enough as it is, without more joke "countries" being admitted to play in them. :mad:

That's not the problem of the minnows. Every nation has the right to play, it's up to the big guns to make sure their players can cope with the extra games.

Also, it may be interesting for you to know that a nation is free to affiliate with whatever continental federation they wish. That is why Israel, Australia, Guam, Surinam and Guyana all play outside of their geographical continent. Every nation is free to ask affiliation with any federation, as long as the continental federation agrees there's no problem. Ireland can ask the South American federation to join, and if they agree then FIFA will not stop it.

In case of Greenland, the problem is not even there. Greenland is on the border of Europe and America, but politically it is considered Europe. They even used to be EU members!

Vatican City is an independent country, so they have all right to play. Their team consists of only administrative personnel and security staff, no priests or clerical people are involved so please don't make joke statements about wearing a collar on the pitch. Vatican City's team is as normal as any other team, and the team itself has absolutely nothing to do with the Church as organisation, apart from the sole fact that the players all emigrated to the Vatican to work as staffmember for the Vatican State. That is something completely different from a team constituted out of priests.

South Ossetia and Corsica sometimes compete in non-FIFA tournaments and seek no affiliation with the UEFA.

To be able to join UEFA the nation must have semi-independence and a large distance to their homeland. Therefore Greenland, Faroe Islands and Gibraltar can affiliate without any problem, while the Isle of Man cannot because it is too close to mainland UK. This rule makes perfect sense IMHO: if a trip to the mainland is too expensive and difficult to do every weekend (like with Faroes or Greenland) then the nation's clubs cannot participate in their mainland nation's league so they have no choice but to organise football themselves. Perfectly justified to see them as independent nations football-wise.

There is a misunderstanding in many of these posts which say things like 'every country has the right to its own team'. I don't disagree with thatbut it doesnt mean they all have to play in the same league. In the same way not all teams play in the Champions League Group Stage, the Premiership or hundreds of other tournaments, what is wrong with them playing other international teams in a pre qualifying tournament. They will get caps etc. and if the team plays well they will be promoted. No-one would be removing any country's rights.

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Originally Posted by cavan_fan

There is a misunderstanding in many of these posts which say things like 'every country has the right to its own team'. I don't disagree with thatbut it doesnt mean they all have to play in the same league. In the same way not all teams play in the Champions League Group Stage, the Premiership or hundreds of other tournaments, what is wrong with them playing other international teams in a pre qualifying tournament. They will get caps etc. and if the team plays well they will be promoted. No-one would be removing any country's rights.

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This is not fair. It would be yet another move just to favor the big guns. I think it's unacceptable if we put the more amateuristic countries in a 'pre qualifiers qualifier'. It's bad enough they reduced the Champions League to a worthless tournament, they stole the Cup Winners Cup and made the UEFA Cup a sort of european garbage bin for all the ones not fitting in the CL... Seriously, the country tournaments are the only ones where we still have the pure form of competition where everyone can enter regardless of their strength. It is essential to keep it that way.

I would not agree on having a B(minnows)-League. That seems quite unfair.
These players deserve the right to confront bigger sides at competition level. Much of these lads have an 40+hours job and play football out of pure passion. On top of that, some of them spend 15+ hours a week on the training pitch which is quite harsh depending on the job you're doing for a living. The only way forward is confrontation with bigger sides even knowing that you'll probably get stuffed. Games at this level are also important for the financial impact they have (sponsors, tickets,...)
Players representing bigger or strong nations should consider these games as an honour, an honour of playing for your own country. It shouldn't make any difference whether you're playing France or let's say Malta, should it?
The CL has seen its debut following the same principles and as far as the CL is concerned... it is quite borring not to say rubbish. No or nearly no surprise anymore, same teams year in year out, same managers, same bunch of sponsors,...
We could even go further by preventing non-league clubs to play domestic cup ties,...
(Globalisation has even reached soccer...)
It seems quite evident of whom you would put in a B-League. But, how would you define progress? How would you measure improvements? Would they be condoned indefinitely to the B-League? On the other hand would that mean that let's say any team belonging to the A-league would be relegated to the B-League following a couple of bad results which (for some teams) would certainly occur ???

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Originally Posted by londonirish17

How would you measure improvements? Would they be condoned indefinitely to the B-League? On the other hand would that mean that let's say any team belonging to the A-league would be relegated to the B-League following a couple of bad results which (for some teams) would certainly occur ???

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This is quite simple, there would be relegation and promotion. any team that finsihes bottom of their group, even if that is Germany would be at risk of relegation. Andorra could finally achieve something, they would play matches that matter.

Their matches do matter to them though. That's the point. It brings in much-needed revenue to the national FA to improve the standard of football at all levels, the removal of which is surely contrary to UEFA's notions of football for all. They can be big occasions for the country involved - again, read Stamping Grounds. People are fully aware of what they're buying tickets for, so the notion of fans being ripped off is one I don't agree with. And in the end of the day, all you're talking abot doing is cutting two matches over a two-year period - hardly going to make that much difference to pro players?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

...again, read Stamping Grounds.

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I would have to seriously question a persons passion for football if after reading that book someone still wanted to throw the 'minnows' into some kind of pre-qualification.

Why?

Look at them the campaign after - hammered Luxembourg home and away, drew with Portugal and Slovakia. A few years ago, they were losing 11-1 to Macedonia. Progress, no?

I think you have gotten me wrong Stu. If after reading that book you still wanted to throw them out in the wilderness then, in my opinion, you really couldn't claim to be a passionate football supporter. The results are not important. What is important is the passion that the Liechtenstein fans and players have for the team. If you wanted to kill off this passion, by putting them into pre-qualifying, then I don't think you could claim to be a football supporter yourself. The people who want to bring in pre-qualifying are more like football consumers than football supporters. These are probably the same people that will watch nothing but English, Spanish and Italian league football.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

I think you have gotten me wrong Stu. If after reading that book you still wanted to throw them out in the wilderness then, in my opinion, you really couldn't claim to be a passionate football supporter. The results are not important. What is important is the passion that the Liechtenstein fans and players have for the team. If you wanted to kill off this passion, by putting them into pre-qualifying, then I don't think you could claim to be a football supporter yourself. The people who want to bring in pre-qualifying are more like football consumers than football supporters. These are probably the same people that will watch nothing but English, Spanish and Italian league football.

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The same could be said of a Lichtensteinen supporter who would be less passionate if his team were playing smaller countries.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

I think you have gotten me wrong Stu.

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It's you who've gotten me entirely wrong. I'm arguing against kicking them out, and using the book as one of my reasons to keep them. I agree with your post entirely.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

The same could be said of a Lichtensteinen supporter who would be less passionate if his team were playing smaller countries.

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Yeah true, you have a point there but how long could any supporter be expected to remain passionate if they are forced to play the same teams over and over again with no hope of progress? Beating San Marino, Andorra and the Faroe Islands isn't going to do much for a Liechtenstein supporter who has seen their team get results against infinitely better teams. I just don't think the whole promotion and relegation think can work in international football as it does in club football. I think progress is much more achieveable in club football and at least in club football you have cups where you can get that glamour tie.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's you who've gotten me entirely wrong. I'm arguing against kicking them out, and using the book as one of my reasons to keep them. I agree with your post entirely.

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Now I am confused. Why did you feel the need to illustrate their progress if I was arguing the same point as you.
Anyway we are both agreed. :)

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Why did you feel the need to illustrate their progress if I was arguing the same point as you?

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Actually - it was I who did the first mis-reading - I mis-read your original post to say that someone who had read the book would want a pre-qualifying.

All sorted and all un-confused!

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Yeah true, you have a point there but how long could any supporter be expected to remain passionate if they are forced to play the same teams over and over again with no hope of progress? Beating San Marino, Andorra and the Faroe Islands isn't going to do much for a Liechtenstein supporter who has seen their team get results against infinitely better teams. I just don't think the whole promotion and relegation think can work in international football as it does in club football. I think progress is much more achieveable in club football and at least in club football you have cups where you can get that glamour tie.

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If they beat these teams they'd get to play better teams. If they don't then they'll have no cause for complaint, they weren't good enough.

I don't think the promotion and relegation would work. In my opinion you would have a frustrating scenario where teams just yo yo between the two tiers. You do make a good point about having no cause for complaint if they don't beat those teams though.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

I don't think the promotion and relegation would work. In my opinion you would have a frustrating scenario where teams just yo yo between the two tiers. You do make a good point about having no cause for complaint if they don't beat those teams though.

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My thinking would be that every team which finishes bottom of their qualifying group should have to win a playoff to avoid relegation to the minnows group with the winner of the minnows exempted from the playoff as their prize.

It would also give the teams near the bottom of the groups something to play to avoid.

That would ok I guess. I was working under the assumption that the team with the worst record is replaced directly with the 'minnow group' winner. As it doesn't exist we don't know what it would be like. I think I would still remain against it with the other reasons I mentioned out weighing teams at the bottoms of their groups having something to play for.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

That would ok I guess. I was working under the assumption that the team with the worst record is replaced directly with the 'minnow group' winner. As it doesn't exist we don't know what it would be like. I think I would still remain against it with the other reasons I mentioned out weighing teams at the bottoms of their groups having something to play for.

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I actually agree with you and I'm currently opposed to the system I proposed above but that will change if Gribraltar or the Vatican enter a team.

Gribaltar is not a country, no matter what way you look at it. The Vatican does not have any young citizins (or indeed any football pitches) and would have to import a team of players.

This all started up when the Faeroe's entered. They had been in the islands cup before hand and regularly won it so I think they were entitled to try the step up to a new level. The system now is treathening to get out of control and some diciplin needs to be put on it.

The only way to encourage footballers to come through the ranks is to allow their country no-matter what size the chance to mix it with the big countries. Some of the worlds best players could be from these smaller countries. You just have to look at george Best

Exactly.

The thread, though, seems to be heading off on the related tangent of what exactly is a country?

No-one is saying they shouldn't be allowed compete but why not make them pre qualify by playing off against each other?Whats the point in games like Germany 13 San Marino 0?Countries with tiny populations are never going to improve much anyway due to lack of players.It is something that UEFA and FIFA need to look at seriously before future qualifying tournaments.

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Originally Posted by trevy

Countries with tiny populations are never going to improve much anyway due to lack of players.

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Really?

Andorra picked up 5 points in their last campaign. Liechtenstein got 8. They were holding Sweden 1-1 in Sweden for a long time; the game was only decided in the last minute really. The 13-0 was a fluke result, as evidenced by the fact that it is a record. San Marino are utter rubbish, but if Liechtenstein and Andorra can improve, there's no reason San Marino can't. They'd need the money from the big games to do it though.

Thought it might be worth reviving this as UEFA have now confirmed Montenegro's membership and given provisional membership to Gibraltar.

The danger here is of precedent setting; if Gibraltar have a team why not Majorca, Ibiza, Crete, Isle of Man etc etc etc. And as it is now a guarantee of getting games against big teams why wouldnt they apply. (By the way I have no issue with Montenegro's membership but as per previous discussions would want them to start in a Division 2 and get promoted.)

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Originally Posted by Dassa

The only way to encourage footballers to come through the ranks is to allow their country no-matter what size the chance to mix it with the big countries. Some of the worlds best players could be from these smaller countries. You just have to look at george Best

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George Best didn't come through the ranks via international football. If a player is good enough he'll get a club contract no matter what country he's from.

I agree there should be pre-qualification for countries outside of a certain ranking.