Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
Big thanks to the Ref for his input so far as his answers have been very concise and helpful.
Bear in mind The Ref is trying to clarify stuff that causes mayhem here
every week.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
Big thanks to the Ref for his input so far as his answers have been very concise and helpful.
Bear in mind The Ref is trying to clarify stuff that causes mayhem here
every week.
That reads to me that if, after five penalties, we're still level, the teams continue taking one penalty each in the same order (i.e first Drogheda, then Start). It doesn't mention what happens after 11 penalties though?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
It's amazing how two people can read the same thing and come up with different conclusions.
My interpretation, and the general consensus around refereeing circles is that this provision provides that the teams must go in the same rotation as the first round. Personally I have never been involved in a game that needed to go a second round of kicks but I can tell you that it has been vigorously debated by Referees a number of times over the years and the conclusion has always been the same.
I will bring it to the table in my Referees Society Branch again and see if the opinion is still the same.
It's the fact that it mentions "after five kicks", not "after every player remaining on the field of play has taken a kick" which leads me to my logic.
Heres another source of info but that too doesnt say anything about the order in which they are taken.
It does however mention what has to happen when a team has finished the game with less than 11. Very interesting and not what I thought was supposed to happen.
You saw commentators mention this during the world cup; it was introduced to stop teams who had a player sent off from having what was perceived to be an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by larrywhite
Regarding the order kicks should be taken after everyone has taken one, I have contacted a number of colleagues around the country and they all agree that it should be in the same order, however between 10 of us (with a combined experience of over 100 years refereeing - we should really get out more), none of us had experience of it going the full way round.
Ref,
Heres another one regarding penalty shoot outs .
I believe the rule is that the penalty is over once the ball stops going forward or
goes outwards from goal.
What happens if a penalty in a penalty shoot out rebounds off the upright/crossbar
and then comes outward but on its way out strikes the keeper and goes into the goal.
Does this goal stand ?
thanks
This was first brought to light during the 1986 World Cup in a game between France and Brazil. At that time a penalty was deemed to be completed when the ball was no longer travelling forward. During the penalty shotout, Bellone,a French player hit the post and it rebounded back about two yards and hit Carlos, the Brazil keeper in the back and went in.Quote:
Originally Posted by RouteOne
The referee allowed the goal, but under the laws of the game at that time was wrong. A lot of media picked up on it, which prompted FIFA to change that particular rule.
Now the under the procedure for deciding the winner of a match with kicks from the penalty mark:
“Unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game and international F.A. Board Decisions apply when kicks from the penalty mark are being taken”
which infers from Law 14 The Penalty Kick
“When a penalty kick is taken during the normal course of play, or time has been extended at half-time or full time to allow a penalty kick to be taken or retaken, a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper”
So yes the Goal should stand.
But would it not count if it was in a penalty shoot out?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
Yes it would,Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
As the only time this would need to be invoked is when the penalty is the last kick of the half (first or second). The directive is that you follow ALL the rules for a penalty kick during a shootout. A penalty kick is a shootout is in effect, exactly the same as a penalty that is taken as the last kick of the game therefore you follow the same rule.
I don't want to be questioning you but I still feel your wrong. I definitely read or heard somewhere in the past year or so that if an incident like that happens in a penalty shoot out that it doesn't count. Also if the penalty was to be the last kick of the game would that not mean that if it hits off the keeper that it wouldn't count as the last kick of the ball had already taken place?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
The only things that we go on are the Laws of the game and there explanations. I recall, when the law was changed, FIFA's explanation and they used the Brazil example and that that goal would stand under the new wording. I have replicated word for word what is in the Law book states regarding the last kick of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge
The law also states that the Referee decides when the penalty has been completed and it can't be completed if it his the posts, and/or the goalkeeper before going in. If the ball still has a chance of going in the kick is NOT completed.
I give you an example. The penalty taker hits the post, the ball takes a vicious spin, comes out and then spins into the net. Because the ball still had a chance of going in, the rule state explicitly "a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper"
The same could be said if the ball hits the post, then the goalkeeper, and then goes in for exactly the same reason.
The rule is clear the goal should stand.
If the referee rules otherwise, he is breach in obligations in upholding the laws of the game
The Ref.
I am sorry to say Ref but you and your colleagues are wrong. After all players that have finished the game have taken a penalty(in the case of the Drogheda game, 11 players on both sides), they DO NOT have to come back in the same order. In fact the player that takes number 11 could come back and take the very first penalty second time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
Very basic stuff Ref and one that you and your colleagues should be aware of.
Heres one that happened in a game I played in recently. Opposing goalkeeper caught the ball. Ran to the edge of the area and took a quick kick from his hands which rebounded off our striker five yards away. Ref immediately gave a free out and booked our striker for blocking down the keeper.
Is this correct?
Does it matter if block is intentional or unintentional?
Does the rule book state that a player has to be a certain distance away before he can block a kick out e.g. what happens if a keeper duffs his kick and it is blocked by a striker 25 yards from goal?
Just to let you know Ref that this is NOT the general consensus in refereeing circles. Any refs that I know are well aware that you DO NOT have to come back in the same order.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
As for it never happening to you, I was always told to expect the unexpected and therefore you should know these things if and when they happen.
The one thing I will say is that it is NOT up to the referee to inform the teams. IF they want to follow the same order, so be it.
In the additional notes to referees it provides that it is an offence for a player to prevent a goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieAnnand
Also a player must be penalised for playing in a dangerous manner if he kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it.
In the case you have outlined, neither of thse conditions has been met therfore I can see no reason for a free kick, let alone a caution. It would appear that the referee was over zealous or maybe he saw something that you didn't.
As I have said I will bring it back to my branch and I will report it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by football fan
I recall having a conversation a number of years ago about this with Tommy Hand, the late T.C. Doyle (both referee assessors at that time) and Paul Moyer (who no longer referees but who was on the FIFA panel of referee assistants at that time) and we all agreed that it was the same order.
I take it from what you say (and from other posts you have posted) you are a referee as well, if you are I would welcome any input you may have.
Once again I reiterate that I will ask the branch to discuss it, and if, as I suspect, you are a referee I would appriciate it if you asked your branch (we may even be members of the same branch)
I have a question I'd like answered, its based on an incident in the league last year.
Team A were awarded a free on the half-way line. As they prepared to take it a forward from Team A elbowed a defender from Team B and was sent off. Play was restarted with a free to Team B from the position of the second offence (the elbowing).
I'd have bet a large sum of money that play should be restarted with a free on the halfway line to ten man Team A as the ball was "out of play" when the second offence, the elbow, took place?
Sorry Ref but I am NOT a referee. I can say that my father and brother are referees so you can imagine the conversations in our house. I will ask them again and to go back to their branch with the question. Its from them that I get my information and my healthy respect for all you referees.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
hi ref,
is there any changes to the pass back rule this year, reason for question
got bit angry with decision at weekend. where there was a melly in the box four our five players swiping for the ball, but it was our player that took at the swipe at ball the ball spun up bounce around six yard box and our keeper grabbed the ball. the ref then gives free kick for pass back.
lucky nothing came about from it but was he right in his decision?
On this point the ref, in the game whre it was brought up drogheda vs Start AFAIK Start did not have the same player take th first kick of the second round as the first.Quote:
Originally Posted by football fan
Im not 100% sure on this but read it on the Drogheda website.
From what you say - you should win your bet. As you correctly point out the ball was out of play, therefore the game should have restarted with a free kick to team A.Quote:
Originally Posted by seand
This is a very tricky question. In order for an indirect free kick to be given, the referee must be of the opinion that the player "deliberately" or "intentionally" played the ball to the goalkeeper. In a mêlée in the box, it can be sometime difficult for the referee to judge what is intent and what is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by holycrossjock
Unfortunately referees cannot read players minds (if we could life would be so much easier) therefore you have to judge each case on its merits, and in these instances referees will always get something’s wrong.
In direct answer to your question - no the rule hasen't changed.
Its funny you mention this, because this happened to a colleague of mne this weekend - where was the match?
in a match in croom limerick
i have to apologise to the ref next time i see him i did a bit of a steve staunton after that, i know they can make mistakes, i just need to learn to control my mouth some times
These things happen, appologise if you wish, if he has any grace he will accept it in the way it is meant. I know, I appriciate it when players and managers shake my hand at the end of the game - at that stage its all over and theres nothing more that can be done. I have never fallen out with anyone over a football match and hopefully never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by holycrossjock
i know just found out he is ref for our next match. so hopefully he will accept olive branch .
talk later ref
If your father and/or brother can bring it at branch level that would be great, I was talking to one of my leagues assessors today and he agreed with my interpretation (he doesn’t know I do this as a as a bit of fun), but would look for further clarification. He also agreed to discuss it again at branch level, I think this question may have raised a hornets nest (on this forum anyway) and it would be nice to put it to bed. All I hope is that whatever comes out of it is that there is consistency right across the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by football fan
Thanks, The Ref. So its official, theres an anti-Dundalk refereeing conspiracy! Not the only case last season of referees in the eircom League not knowing the rules. One of them allowed a free for offside to be taken 2 yards inside the defending teams half.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
One more for The Ref, if you don't mind! A strange one... playing in Leinster League a couple of years ago, somebody played a backpass to our keeper, who bent down to pick it up. The ref promptly whistled for a free, but did it marginally before the ball reached the keeper, so the keeper stopped playing, stood up and didnt actually handle the ball. A forward ran in and played the ball into the empty net, and the ref let the goal stand (though the defence and keeper had stopped playing at the whistle.) What's the rule for a refree 'accidentally' whistling?!! I'd have thought this was a drop-ball, surely we shouldnt have played on?
When you say it is strange, you certainly meant it. The laws of the game only cover what should happen during a game, I have racked my brains and can't think where it could be covered by the laws except for,Quote:
Originally Posted by seand
Law 8 the start/restart of play "A dropped ball is a way of restarting the match after a temporary stoppage that becomes necessary, while the ball is in play, for any reason not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws of the Game."
By whistling too soon, in my opinion, the referee has in effect stopped play. As there has been no offence committed, and no free kick to either team, it becomes a temporary stoppage, thus a drop ball.
From the facts as you told me, a bit of common sense was needed here and a drop ball would have been the fairest solution. I do believe (again from the facts above) a goal should not have been awarded.
This is just my opinion, as the rules don't specifically cover this situation, others may want to put their ideas forward.
The Ref
Thanks The Ref. It's a beauty alright! I'd be of the same opinion, it was "a temporary stoppage ... while the ball is in play, for any reason not mentioned elsewhere in the Laws of the Game." Also there's golden rule of not playing after the whistle. As a ref cannot play advantage after whistling for a foul, surely he can't play advantage after accidentally whistling for a foul!
I suppose an alternative opinion might be that it would be an indirect free to the attacking team for the keeper "attempting" to handle a back-pass?? After all you don't have to make contact to commit a foul, so perhaps the keeper committed a foul in attempting to pick up the back-pass.
That would be by far the farest and most logical solution imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ref
The keeper only commits an offence when he actually "touches the ball with his hand" (Law 12 refers), therefore the intent dosen't matterQuote:
Originally Posted by seand
no touch - no free
The Ref
Very illuminating thread, you're now my favourite ref by default.
How about this one. It's been a long time (ten years or more) since I scrutinized the laws of the game, so this may have been amended in the meantime. However, I distinctly (okay, hazily) remember reading something to the effect that the game could be truncated to fewer than 45 minutes each way with the consent of both captains.
If this remains operative, the potential for abuse is obvious. Teams could shorten the duration of a game to produce a mutually beneficial result, or alleviate unwanted fixture congestion.
Am I totally off the wall here?
Your right, but you forgot one vital piece of information, it must be agreed between the two teams (I'm not going to split hairs with the captains - same difference) and the referee and it must be done prior to the game starting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Also the competition rules must not have a proviso in them that the game cannot be shortened
If two teams want to play out a mutually agreeable result, this can be done (without the referees knowledge) over any period a half, be it 45mis 40 mins etc.
I personally don't know any referee who would allow a game to be shortened for a reason that wasn't bona fide e.g. light not to hold. IMO If a referee did shorten a game, to aliviate fixture congestion, fix a result or any other reason that is not genuine then he is only cheating and has no place in the game. Thankfully, I don't know of any such referees.
Ref during our match yesterday with hill celtic, frank o,neill disallowed a goal cause he said u need more than 2 on the line. A hill celtic player and goalkeeper were on the line when our forward tapped in a perfectly good goal, what was that clown on about when he didnt award it
I was at a game yesterday. One team scored and as the players were heading back towards there half of the field, the other team centered off and had a shot at goal. The ref said that if it had gone in he would have allowed it, even though there were 3 or 4 players from the team who scored still in the wrong half of the pitch as the ball was centered off. Was the ref correct?? or should everyone be in the right side of the pitch when the ball is centered off.
hey ref what about this one,
a defender plays the ball back to the keeper ( a true backpass 100%). the keeper goes to kick the ball but it bounces over his leg (does not touch it). The ball is definately going into the goal and the keeper dives and catches it. what is the decision?
and another,
a player takes a throw to a team mate. He heads this directly backwards (on purpose) for the keeper to pick up. The keeper comes and picks the ball up (inside the box)
what is the decision?