NI Passports

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Originally Posted by REVIP

I would agree with the letter.

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Even tho it has been clearly demonstrated that the thrust of the letter is inaccurate and misleading?:eek:

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Originally Posted by SwiftsSupporter

Yes it is a letter but a letter published by the paper. This passport issue was brought up because of FIFA and UEFA were getting allegedly confused by players having different passports. What’s bigotry about that? and what does it have to do with religion?

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I don't buy this innocent buck-passing on the part of the IFA.

The IFA are fully aware that there are 2 communities in Northern Ireland, holding 2 different passports - one British, one Irish. Not every member of one community holds one specific passport and vice-versa - but broadly there is a passport divide that also reflects the religious and cultural divide.

When this issue was raised with the IFA they had two choices :

A) Explain the unique nature of Northern Ireland to UEFA/FIFA, and have their officials accept that either of only 2 specific passports would be acceptable in legitimising Northern Irish players. Hardly a difficult task.
B) Accept the FIFA/UEFA communication unchallenegd - in the full knowledge that it would probably cause a stink back home.

In their infinite wisdom, the IFA chose option B. Nothing short of partisanship, extreme naivety, incompetence or sheer stupidity can explain this decision. I suspect a mix of all 4 - with stupidity being the lion's share.

It seems that they have now accepted that they need to do option A above - which they could have done in the first place.

So - to blame FIFA/UEFA for this is to completely let the IFA off the hook on their failed duty of representing the interests of their members/community/country within International football. Particularly as they were the ones who best understood the problems such a ruling would predictably create. Hence why the IFA is worthy of criticism on this issue

Could I remind posters that NOBODY said that players could not utilise either a British or Irish passport to travel on.

I agree with dcfcsteve in that the IFA should have more proactively challenged the FIFA/UEFA ruling initially.

Very simply, they should (and now have) explained to the authorities that matters of identity can get some people very touchy in Northern Ireland.

Both FIFA and UEFA are fully aware of the efforts the IFA have made in recent times to challenge bigotries, and they should have been informed earlier that their ruling did not help.

But, let's not forget the fact that this story comes directly from a FIFA/UEFA ruling, not an IFA one.

I think the matter will be resolved satisfactorily for all concerned in the very near future.

Donal from Cavan is ****-stirring. Taking his points in order,

a) much as I welcome the Setanta Cup, "tremendous" is going a bit far

b) its inception no more represents the end of bigotry than its absence in the past reflects that. Teams from both leagues have been playing each other, and trading players, for decades. Were they bigoted nevertheless?

c) there isn't really any more possibility of an all-Ireland league now than in the 1920s or 90s, is there? As seems to have been discussed exhaustively on this forum

d) what was so vicious or naked about our routine draw with Portugal last year? Unless you mean Cristiano Ronaldo taking a **** against the North Stand. And without condoning what happened in 1993, you're exaggerating. Irish fans have seen far worse elsewhere, including in Lansdowne Road in 1995. Much of the criticism of the earlier game was because Bingham encouraged our fans to get behind the team. What did you expect, him to treat it as a friendly, or go somewhere neutral as Jack demanded?

e) dinosaurs. Ok, fair dos, point taken...

f) I'd argue that the IFA's decision wasn't "crass", though I disagree with it. Yes, there are particular circumstances in Northern Ireland, but those (on both sides) who think it unique are surely wrong. There are plenty of regions elsewhere in Europe with often much larger disaffected minorities looking across a border for identity- Transylvania, much of ex-Yugoslavia etc. We don't stand out in deserving a special dispensation

g) as non-Brazilian suggests, it's set community harmony back a week or two before UEFA announces a compromise for us (and Erdelyi, Bosna Srpska and the rest)

h) most fans don't really care whether players are de facto green or orange (actually don't you mean de jure, de facto they can have whatever politics they please, or none?), provided they take playing international football seriously. NI have plenty, from, both sides, who haven't!

i) regardless of the Irish Times's politics (and while Prods in the South may tend to prefer it to other papers, they aren't numerous enough to dictate editorial line), Geraldine Kennedy does emply sub-editors. Whose job should include culling obvious bull**** like Donal's from the letters page.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

regardless of the Irish Times's politics (and while Prods in the South may tend to prefer it to other papers, they aren't numerous enough to dictate editorial line), Geraldine Kennedy does emply sub-editors. Whose job should include culling obvious bull**** like Donal's from the letters page.

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The Irish Times sells about 110-120,000 copies - the mainstream Protestant community at the 2002 census was about 150,000 - about 60,000 households, predominantly middle class and predominantly Irish Times readers.

The Times very much reflects their ethos, liberal on social issues such as divorce and contraception, and conservative on economic issues. Some of the Protestants I know would have voted PD last time, most would be Fine Gael. Geraldine Kennedy would not be out of line with many of them.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Even tho it has been clearly demonstrated that the thrust of the letter is inaccurate and misleading?:eek:

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The thrust of the letter was that it was people's own business what passport they carried.

The IFA shouldn't have allowed the matter to reach the pitch it did.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

c) there isn't really any more possibility of an all-Ireland league now than in the 1920s...is there?

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But we did have an All-island league for one and a half years in the 1920's ! :D

Before the Free Staters got carried away with themselves and split the party up...... :o :p

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I don't buy this innocent buck-passing on the part of the IFA.

The IFA are fully aware that there are 2 communities in Northern Ireland, holding 2 different passports - one British, one Irish. Not every member of one community holds one specific passport and vice-versa - but broadly there is a passport divide that also reflects the religious and cultural divide.

When this issue was raised with the IFA they had two choices :

A) Explain the unique nature of Northern Ireland to UEFA/FIFA, and have their officials accept that either of only 2 specific passports would be acceptable in legitimising Northern Irish players. Hardly a difficult task.
B) Accept the FIFA/UEFA communication unchallenegd - in the full knowledge that it would probably cause a stink back home.

In their infinite wisdom, the IFA chose option B. Nothing short of partisanship, extreme naivety, incompetence or sheer stupidity can explain this decision. I suspect a mix of all 4 - with stupidity being the lion's share.

It seems that they have now accepted that they need to do option A above - which they could have done in the first place.

So - to blame FIFA/UEFA for this is to completely let the IFA off the hook on their failed duty of representing the interests of their members/community/country within International football. Particularly as they were the ones who best understood the problems such a ruling would predictably create. Hence why the IFA is worthy of criticism on this issue

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They could have done that first but then again it's much better to spread it all over the press, as Mr. Boyce loves seeing himself in lights. The issue was handled badly I think we all know that but if your writing a letter about it there’s no need to bring religion into it.

Some people just like to go round and try and find something where they can mention bigotry, sectarianism and so on no matter what the issue is.

I watched a Northern Ireland Under 21 team (ie. the future) earlier this month.

It included a Celtic goalkeeper, a Glentoran full back from Poleglass (former Antrim Minor GAA player), a Derry City Centre Half, a Linfield Centre Forward and the team was captained proudly by a player from nationalist West Belfast.

Who cares what passport they have?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I watched a Northern Ireland Under 21 team (ie. the future) earlier this month.

It included a Celtic goalkeeper, a Glentoran full back from Poleglass (former Antrim Minor GAA player), a Derry City Centre Half, a Linfield Centre Forward and the team was captained proudly by a player from nationalist West Belfast.

Who cares what passport they have?:rolleyes:

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Couldnt agree more and heres hoping it contnues. Oh and of course we won:D

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Who cares what passport they have?

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They do, it can't be overlooked as being a simple bit of red tape which can be dealt with. The "nationality" of the players has to be respected.

However, Mr Ramsey is a hypocrite to show any interest in local football while the council his party run in Derry continue to show total distain and apathy towards the Brandywell problem.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

They do, it can't be overlooked as being a simple bit of red tape which can be dealt with. The "nationality" of the players has to be respected.

However, Mr Ramsey is a hypocrite to show any interest in local football while the council his party run in Derry continue to show total distain and apathy towards the Brandywell problem.

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Personally hope the IFA sort this matter out pronto. would be a shame to see all their hard work and that of the true fans go down the drain over something like this. As for derry council lets face it is there any council in NI that support their local clubs?

You are right about local councils in general but DCC should be held up as a prime example of how not to run a City. They are a disgrace and a shambles and waste away the huge potential our city has.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

You are right about local councils in general but DCC should be held up as a prime example of how not to run a City. They are a disgrace and a shambles and waste away the huge potential our city has.

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maybe just there attitude to football remember reading somewhere about the council controversally giving whacks of land to GAA clubs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4583502.stm

Dont know everything about it just what i read, but seems clear alot of help towards these clubs not afforded to DCFC or IFC.

the only council to seemingly put any effort into their club is that of ballymena with the council funding that new impressive stand.

If the council were balanced in how their give land away then I wouldn't have a problem but they have given Sean Dolans GFC this land and refuse to give us the Brandy. Within the next month we should hear back from DCC so I'm hoping they will be sensible (for a change) and make the move that will benefit the City as a whole.

out of curiousity does the council own the Brandywell and riverside or just the brandywell. have the club ever been in the situation to buy it off the DCC or is it unrealistic in money terms.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

3/ Resident for 2 years "on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)

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off topic i know but does that mean if i went to live in equatiorial guinea for 2 years i could play for them?

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Originally Posted by Dassa

out of curiousity does the council own the Brandywell and riverside or just the brandywell. have the club ever been in the situation to buy it off the DCC or is it unrealistic in money terms.

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Just the Brandywell.

It was bequeathed to the Council to hold in-trust for the people of Derry by the Honourable Irish Society, with a pre-requisite that it be used primarily for sport.

DCC therefore cannot sell it off, but they could issue a long lease on it - which is the proposal from DCFC.

And because soccer isn't a proverbial political football in the city, we get nothing form the Council whilst GAA clubs get lots.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

And because soccer isn't a proverbial political football in the city, we get nothing form the Council whilst GAA clubs get lots.

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What is the political make up of DCC? Can you lobby the politicians on that matter? Isn't Derry more of a soccer city than GAA? If these guys come looking for your vote, politely remind them of this.

Every politician puts on the we care about you act around election but then they do **** all and spend a fortune cutting grass 2 times a year around the town, and its more then the figure then spend maintaining the Brandywell!

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

...to hold in-trust for the people of Derry by the Honourable Irish Society...

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Just being pedantic, but its "The Honourable The Irish Society" Link

Derry City Council by party:

SDLP 14
SF 10
DUP 5
UUP 1

To REVIP: Audit Bureau of Circulation figures suggest the Times's 117,000 is about 18% of Irish sales of Irish daily newspapers (ie not counting local editions of British papers). 150,000 Protestants is about 4% of the population of the state. Their figures cover Ireland as a whole, but the Times doesn't have high sales in NI- unionists have their own papers.

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Originally Posted by Thunderblaster

What is the political make up of DCC? Can you lobby the politicians on that matter? Isn't Derry more of a soccer city than GAA? If these guys come looking for your vote, politely remind them of this.

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Sadly people in Northern Ireland don't consider real issues when voting time comes around.

It's back to the trenches and pick your colour.:eek:

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Originally Posted by gonzo

A couple of points;

Find myself agreeing with the IFA :o


the continued illegal occupation of the NE Ulster 'theme park';

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Gonzo,

You are agreeing with the IFA about what exactly?

Who continues to illegally occupy NE Ulster?

Gonzo you are definitly WUM number 1 on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Derry City Council by party:

SDLP 14
SF 10
DUP 5
UUP 1

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Thanks for that info.

Your post had little if any relevence to what was being discussed.

Wind Up pure and simple

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Given the post was deleted for reasons of 'diplomacy';You can hardly then argue this,FFS.
& I accept what A Face says more readily, than people who take 'offence' so easily they are so unwilling to post any response as their sensibilities are :rolleyes: so affected re.any 'controversial' topic.:(


Even the Northern politicians are more flexible in their outlook than some on here.:cool:

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I complained to admin rather than get involved in a political debate on here, it is after all a football forum and I certainly found of the stuff you had on there offensive and definetely irrelevant to the thread.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Just let's say if you can't work it out :rolleyes: there's no point me explaining.;)

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I see.

You were expressing a prejudiced (political) opinion rather than stating (political) fact.

Here's a fact for you.

The IFA permit players to travel on whatever passport they choose, whether it be British or Irish.

If people are going to attempt to score cheap political points, could they at least get their facts straight?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

NB, Merely expressing my opinion.
Didn't say it should be written in stone & no doubt the IFA, like most FA's, will make up the rules as they go along anyway. Also, not all 'Prods'. on the island of Ireland think & act like a certain bunch of unrepresentative bigots in the North. Now that is fact!;)

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I merely point out that your opinion does not constitute fact.

With regards to the passports issue, ie the substance of the thread, the IFA permit players to travel on either British or Irish passports.

As for you comments about "Prods", I fail to see any relevence whatsoever it has to the discussion, and am at a loss as to fathom out why you added them.

I care not what religion, if any, anyone is, so I would be grateful in future when you are discussing issues with me that you refrain from sectarianising the debate.

Gonzo, is there any point to your continued presence on this messageboard? Allegations of City fans being "pious" and "apolitical" are getting really tedious at this stage. Throwing about word like "prods" is also going to cause offence. Do us all a favour and beat it, allowing the adults to have a serious and respectful debate.

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Originally Posted by David

I complained to admin rather than get involved in a political debate on here, it is after all a football forum and I certainly found of the stuff you had on there offensive and definetely irrelevant to the thread.

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I wouldn't mind so much if Gonzo's offensiveness had a degree of sensible flow and structure behind it ! Instead we're stuck with random, dis-jointed rantings and petty abusive sentiments and terminology without even a degree of coherence or relevance to the discussion.

Tell you what Gonzo - PM me and I'll post you over 10p to run along to the shops and buy yourself some sweeties. The grown-ups are busy at the moment - we'll give you some attention in a bit, I promise......

Take whatever stance you like on the issue of passports gonzo, but you've dragged many totally unrelated points into this thread that should be highlighted as WUMage.

And 'largely unrepresentative of Protestants in Ireland as a whole' - fact is they are the majority of the Protestants in Ireland, so are representative. And the fair majority of 'them' have no bigotted views. Don't tar all 'prods' with the UVF/LVF brush.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

This includes personal views on my *'Protest-ant' bretheren in the North, who are largely unrepresentative of other Protestants in Ireland as a whole. Do happen to know this from extensive personal experience. As I said, a fact.
Or of course, you would all :rolleyes: know better, as usual. How is this then somehow 'sectarianising' the debate?!
The reason I mentioned them, was a no.of other posters had earlier in the thread, in the context of their overall presence in Ireland.
Or maybe collective amnesia has set in, before you start whinging.

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:rolleyes:

Have you a relevent point you wish to make, or do you just want to continue sectarianising the debate with your bigoted opinions and sweeping generalisations about Northern "Prods"?

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Originally Posted by gonzo

PS.
Going back on topic;the reason Passports are so contentious, is they represent nationality, an issue neither 'side' of the majority in the North will readily relinquish.

Though anyone not taking a cosy PC stance on this with an opposing view, this somehow makes them a 'WUM', FFS. Get real.

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What exactly is your "opposing view", and who exactly are you opposing?

Have you bothered to read the thread at all?

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Having been in close proximity to this august body, please illustrate how my opinions are 'bigoted'? & how the debate has been sectarianised?! ;)

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What "august body"?

Why are you talking about religious persuasion?...it has no relevance to the debate, as far as I can ascertain.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

If people bothered to read what was said & bothered to put their own personal paranoia/blinkers & the infamous 'Ulster moral high ground' to one side :rolleyes: they might realise what had been said?

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What are you on about?

I asked you about your opposing view, and whom you were opposing.

Are you going to elaborate, or not?

Gonzo - has your computer got a virus or something ? You're either reading a different thread than everyone else on here, or you're seeing posts and issues that don't exist.

Your postings seem to get more rambling and insane with time.

If you've something constructive to add to the debate - fine. If you're looking to wield an axe about your perception of northern protestants, then I suggest you look elsewhere. Meanwhile, stop banging on about thoroughly irrelevant issues such as southern protestants and "august bodies" (I thought it was May...?) and responding in a bizarre, unconnected and unintelligible manner. This is a football thread in a football forum. You're very difficult to take seriously as anything other than a WUM....

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Originally Posted by gonzo

In your :rolleyes: opinion.

As for the 'P'-word, unless you have personal experience of being one, I would humbly suggest your interpretation of the 'facts' re.their Southern representatives is seriously misguided.:p

Doubtless in your pious over-sensitivity, you will perceive this as a wind-up!

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What part of my post was opinion?

Ulster Prods are the majority of Protestants in all Ireland. You continually bring irrelevancy into this thread - for example your "august body".

What Southern representatives have I mentioned? As for piety - you won't find a less religious person than me, and although I wish it was the case, I'm not a God, nor do I consider myself one.

Surely you can see that every other poster on this thread has pulled you up on irrelevance?

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Originally Posted by gonzo

I'll leave you to it peeps. If you don't understand(or don't want to), fair enough.
Not saying you're right mind.:p

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There's only one person on this thread who doesn't seem to understand or have a clue what's going on Gonzo.

Close the door after yourself there....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ls/5016872.stm

This ruling begs the question, who do FIFA think they are? They recognised the difference in football and politics when they ruled that Billy Boys e.t.c could be ignored because it was outside their jurisdiction. This ruling contravenes the GFA and makes the idea of sovereignty dead.

I hope the players with Irish passports do the sensible thing and refuse to play.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ls/5016872.stm

This ruling begs the question, who do FIFA think they are? They recognised the difference in football and politics when they ruled that Billy Boys e.t.c could be ignored because it was outside their jurisdiction. This ruling contravenes the GFA and makes the idea of sovereignty dead.

I hope the players with Irish passports do the sensible thing and refuse to play.

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You will note, lest there be any confusion, that this a FIFA decision...not an IFA decision.

It is bitterly disappointing.

FIFA have been fulsome in their praise of the IFA's "Football For All" campaign, under the sterling stewardship of Michael Boyd...this decision flies in the face of what the IFA are trying (honourably) to do.:mad:

Very strange.

Surely you don't need a passport in order to be a citizen of a country???

I don't have a British passport, but I was born in Northern Ireland so surely the British Government recognise me as British ( Even if I don't;) )

Or have FIFA now cleared it up once and for all, anyone without a Passport is a non-national:confused: