Islam (and the war in Iraq)

Dunno whether to laugh or cry at this.....

The declaration of dependence

We, the sheeple, in order to form a better flock, will abide by the rules of the elite so that we should remain loyal to those with better judgement, who have written our history and will write our future. That we will not see, hear or speak evil of those who we owe our continuing existence too and like 9/11 will act as a sheep whose eyes are blinded by the light of our leaders. That it is better to listen and obey than to question the judgement of those who know so much more than us. Just as Able Danger never existed, we can always count on our overseers to tell us the truth.

I pledge allegence to the government of the Secret State of America, and to the Elite for which it stands, one nation under surveillance, with liberty and justice for those that can afford it.

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Originally Posted by sirhamish

Once again, no substance to your argument against Fisk just labelling.

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No?? :confused:

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Check out his comparison between the original mess the Brits cause in the regions which became Iraq and the current situation - frightening similarities from an historical point of view.

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Do I need more substance than that? :rolleyes: That's just one of his articles, there are many more similiar ones in circulation.

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You're right. Bush and co. didn't initiate a pre-emptive war against Iraq, didn't take note of several warnings as to the mess that was gonna happen. If you believe Bush the Fool and his cronies are not responsible for initiating the mess, then you're in the land of Oz.

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If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem.

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EVERY poll in the US has Bush in the mid-30s regarding Iraq.

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As I have said before, any polls on Bush at this stage are of no consequence, as he is not contending the next American election. You're stuck with him for another 30 months, so put up with it!

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So, at least, I can balance my opinions with both sides of the story.When you read the other side of the argument (as I have), then I'll have dialogue with you.

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You have taken a side on the Iraq conflict, I have taken the other. You'll have to respect that, and stop branding, screaming, and misquoting me when your posts are argued. There is no such thing as "neutral" in this war, and you don't switch sides, whether it be my stance on it, yours, the Irish (and other) Government's, Richard Barrett's anti-Bush attention-seeking mates, Robert Fisk's, or Al Qaeda's. I have taken a stance on the issue, and like most people, I am not interested in the other side's argument, views I don't like, agree with, or believe in. You take a stance and you stick to it, through good and bad.

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You've brought nothing of substance to the table.

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I've brought enough to the table. You don't like it, too bad. As neither of us are prepared to budge, we'll just have to agree to disagree about it.

Mypost - I'm beginning to think you're doing a wind-up job on me - hope I'm right because you can't be serious with your reply. IF SO - bravo. BUt the screaming jibe is just childish an silly. Don't confuse passion with screaming.

"If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem"

No argument from you about the warning to the Bushies of the mess that would follow. No mention of the Downing Street report, no mention of the recent book by The UK Ambassador to the US about plans for war and the similar one from another UK mbassador last week. No mention of the illegality of a preemptive war which was comdemned at the Nuremburg trials over 60s years ago. Remember Colin Powell's statements to Bush and others?

"Washington Post
"BY MONIFA THOMAS Staff Reporter
Former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell on Saturday said the United States has made "serious mistakes" during the Iraq war that have led to the rising violence the country now faces.
Powell, in his keynote speech at the National School Board Association's annual conference in Chicago, also said the United States made visa requirements too strict for foreign students after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But he steered clear of talking about President Bush's alleged role in leaking classified prewar intelligence on Iraq.
"We made some serious mistakes in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Baghdad," Powell told a crowd of thousands at the McCormick Place conference. "We didn't have enough troops on the ground. We didn't impose our will. And as a result, an insurgency got started, and . . . it got out of control."

"Woodward wrote that behind the scenes, Powell used language from one of Tom Friedman's columns in referring to the "Pottery Barn rule" of foreign policy. That is: "you break it, you own it.""

The attack from the US was because of WMDs - every single right winger now acknowledges that was the reason given by Bush for attacking Iraq. Saddams liniks with Iraq also rediculed. Bush has acknowledged both.

It would be ultra callous to invade and then tell them to fcuk off and sort out their own problems. That's whats happening right now. Mypost you don't just invade a country and depose a thug like Saddam - a former Rumsfeld/Cheney ally BTW - and then whinge when the mess you've created doesn't work out - why did Bremner dissolve the Iraqi army - they're the bulk of the resistance and many have infiltrated the various militias/army/police force - all trained by the Yanks BTW. What happened to 20 BILLION Iraqi money which disappeared in the first year when in the hands of Bremners sidekicks? "You break it, You own it" Any other attitude is callous, hubristic and disgraceful. Shame on you mypost.

Do you agree or disagree with Fisk's historical comparision with the Brits entering Baghdad and the US doing same and the obvious parallels. If so, why? That's only one point in his lecture. Give me something of substance back, for God's sake - any counter point.........anything.

Leaving Fisk aside for a while, didn't you mention in another post about people in Iraq and what's life there or something to that effect? Did you look at the several Blogs FROM Baghdad I posted describing life on the ground there? Surely you want to know what life is like outside the Green Zone and in the Red Zone?

As I have said before, any polls on Bush at this stage are of no consequence, as he is not contending the next American election. You're stuck with him for another 30 months, so put up with it

Oh yeah?? William Kristol, one of the original Neo-Cons and PNAC people said a few days ago that Republicans are in deep trouble and will lose at least one of the houses -either the senate or House of Reps, If this happens, then there is a stronger chance that the Dems will impeach Bush, Cheney, Remufeld and co. Any wonder many budding Republican politicians are keeping him at arms length. Polls are important.

Where did I misquote you? Again, nothing of substance - just a statement.

As i posted above, I have searched the media,internet etc far and wide from the right wing to the moderate to the left to learn. Learning - that's the side I chose to stand on. Picking a stance and sticking with it to me is a sign of defeat, of intellectual laziness. That is why I deliberately posted the statements of Republicans/Neo-Cons/CIA/Conservaties and when I check out even the Republican sites I've been amazed at the amount of criticism that Republicans have made at Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld. They're even fighting among themselves. Did you see Rumsfeld's reply to Condi rice's Blackburn "thousands" statement? Lindsey Graham (R), Chuck Hagel (R), John McCain (R), Richard Lugar (R) Arlene Spector (R) are among many highly important Republicans who are hammering Bush and co on everything from the Katrina tradegy to Dubai ports deal to Iraq to the economy.

Unlike you, I AM interested in your side of the argument and have left you loads of comments, debates, speeches, videos etc etc to look at and debate with me but you simply won't. You deserve a b.ollocking mypost. You really do.
Picking a stance and sticking to it is just condemning your good self to the hell of self-imposed fascism. What the hell do you want to do that for??
Everyday, I look for signs of hope in Iraq - I search websites for signs of Iraqis coming together but all I get is bad news - even from Fox "News" - and that's saying something.

Just for interest sake, do you know anything about the following?

The Iranian Burse
The US Deficit
Kevin Phliips -(not the Villa player btw:D )
Larry Wilkerson
Jack Abramoff
Tom Delay
Jack Murtha
Chuck Hagel
Arlene Spector (on Fox "NEWS) on Sunday)
Seymour Hersh (on US TV on Sunday - see video in Iran's Nukes thread
Chuck Cunningham (in jail now)
Pamela de Maigret**
Scott Ritter

** Life long hard core Republican - she talks about the dollar/oil/euro probllem and the Florida voting machine etc scam (the latter about half way through the 15 min interview)

http://www.iwtnews.com/videoplayer/pamela_de_maigret

I'll shower you with respect if you provide serious evidence and counter points to my posted commenst from myself and the people, above, I mentioned, I deliberately searched for Conservative viewpoints to reach out to you and you bring back ..............nothing.

Maybe you're happier with these people:p

Ann Coulter
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

It's not terrorism that's bad, it's Muslims who are bad. And Christianity will make them good. Those crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, they were great for world peace weren't they? And the carpet bombing of German cities is cited by many as an Allied war crime. It did little to win the war (that was done by the brave American grunts at Normandy). Mostly all it did was kill a lot of innocent women and children. Oh, never mind. I was trying to be rational again

"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

Her words were applauded by National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice, Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson, and Lynne Cheney (wife of Vice President Cheney), all of whom were in attendance

COULTER: I take the biblical idea. God gave us the earth.

PETER FENN (Democratic strategist): Oh, OK.

COULTER: We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees.

FENN: This is a great idea.

COULTER: God says, "Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours."

FENN: Terrific. We're Americans, so we should consume as much of the earth's resources...

COULTER: Yes! Yes.

FENN: ... as fast as we possibly can.

COULTER: As opposed to living like the Indians

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

This is the type of kook who supports the Bushies.:D

Another few quotes from the wingnuts

Michelle Malkin - Blogger/Media Whore

Malkin: One of the themes of my book is that civil liberties are not sacrosanct. While we should never be contemptuous of civil liberties, we ought not make a fetish of them either. When we are at war, certain infringements (e.g., military tribunals for suspected al Qaeda operatives), while regrettable, are justified.

Malkin referred to Women for Kerry (a "community" within Senator John Kerry's presidential campaign) as "an embarrassment to a nation at war."

Glenn Beck CNN Radio

At the beginning of a call with one who identified himself as an intelligence officer who used torture in the past to extract information from U.S. prisoners, Beck praised, "I've got to tell you I appreciate your service."

Acknowledging Olbermann's "Worst Person in the World" designation, Beck said Sheehan is "pimping out the tragedy of her own son's death"

Olbermann named CNN hire Glenn Beck "Worst Person" for calling Cindy Sheehan "a pretty big prostitute

"[I]f I'm an interrogator, and they say, [imitates Arabic accent] 'I read in your papers that you cannot torture me,' I'll say, 'Yeah, you know, you saw another thing in the papers, you saw pictures of people being tortured. And I just want you to look around, little, uh, Habib, here, I want you to look around the room. Notice one thing is missing, and that's called a camera.' " [6/23/04

Michael Savage Wingnut Radio

In the course of the shows, Savage called Arabs "non-humans" and "racist, fascist bigots"; asserted that Americans would like to "drop a nuclear weapon" on any Arab country; and that "these people" in the Middle East "need to be forcibly converted to Christianity" in order to "turn them into human beings."


Rush Limbaugh Wingnut Radio (20 million listeners)
On Abu Ghraib

Here's Rush's sociological evaluation of what really happened at Abu Ghraib, as quoted in a piece in The New Republic on Limbaughism:

"This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?"

Now, don't you feel like a dopey dittohead for letting a little outbreak of prisoner sadism bug you? These were just boys and girls blowing off steam during a stressful situation. Let's not make an international incident out of it, for crying out loud.

In Rush's world, this is essentially geopolitical spilled milk:

"I don't understand what we're so worried about. These are the people that are trying to kill us. What do we care what is the most humiliating thing in the world for them? There's also this business of them all wearing hoods and how that’s also very humiliating. You can see more guys wearing hoods at a [Sen.] Robert Byrd birthday party 40 years ago than we've seen in these prisoner photos."

Mypost Iraqi Expert

"If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem"

Actually if it comes to cause and effect in all this then Britain is ultimately to blame. A look at many of the World's problem areas will show that what they have in common is that the British Empire was there to a greater or lesser degree. Iraq is a case in point British interference writ large established the state in the first place . As is the usual Middle East Israel/Palestinian conflict.

and when it comes down to it they colonised what we now call the USA initially in the 17th Century. Let's blame the Brits :D

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Actually if it comes to cause and effect in all this then Britain is ultimately to blame. A look at many of the World's problem areas will show that what they have in common is that the British Empire was there to a greater or lesser degree. Iraq is a case in point British interference writ large established the state in the first place . As is the usual Middle East Israel/Palestinian conflict.

and when it comes down to it they colonised what we now call the USA initially in the 17th Century. Let's blame the Brits :D

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There's a huge grain of truth in this.

Britain's approach to foreign affairs for decades ran along the 'divide and conquer ideology'. When it came to them having to make tough decisions with regards the different factions they helped divide, they just told each group that they'd get what they wanted and then scarpered without delivering anything - leaving the countries concerned in an inevitable mess.

This happened in Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, South Africa and Ireland. It's too far down the timeline of history to blame this former British foreign policy for the mess Iraq is in - but their role in it by fecking up their post WWI mandate needs at least to be acknowledged.

lads don't be putting smilies into a cracking serious thread.

Fisk (with a few words from Chomsky) cover all the Brit involement nicely here - even Charles Dickens gets a mention - didn't know he'd been in Iraq. It's nearly two hours long but worth a listen. Armenia is also mentioned here.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12661.htm

Pictures from the Iraq obscenity

WARNING - MANY OF THESE PICTURES MAY CAUSE EXTREME DISTRESS.

http://iraq-kill-maim.org/

Gosh, isn't the liberation of Iraq a great thing altogether?? :rolleyes:

CAUTION - this film is not for the faint of heart

What Really Happened In "Falluja April 2004"

"Director Toshikuni DOI exposes the side of the U.S. war in Iraq that Americans do not see or hear in mainstream media."

Ten days after the siege of Falluja was lifted, Toshikuni Doi, a Japanese independent journalist, went into Falluja. His documentary, investigates the causes of, conditions during, and damages from the siege.
Warning
This film contains graphic images. Viewer discretion advised.


http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12665.htm

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Originally Posted by RDBloomfield

Bush & his cohorts are scum of the highest order and deserve all they get for invading other people's countries.:mad:

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Interesting point here......I think it could quite easily be argued that it wasn't Saddam's country to rule int he first place....so if you declare that Bush etc. "deserve all they get" for taking over a coutnry they have no legitimacy to rule thus leading to the deaths of many innocent people perhaps Saddam deserved all he got for taking over a country he had no legitimate right to rule this leading to the deaths of many innocent people.....

I think your use of the term "invading other people's countries" also has a few flaws. Firstly perhaps it was more of a liberation than an invasion? Power has been handed over to a democratically elected government. Yes technically it was an invasion but it wasn't to take power was it?
Also was it the people's coutnry under Saddam? I think a country is only truly the people's country under democracy when people have voted in their leader and get a regular chance to vote them out.

Also worth noting an article by BCC a while back about how the Kurdish part of Iraq ahs been flourishing since the liberation.

re. Google-fair play to Sir Hamish and his blogs but Google is by no means a comprehensive search-simply a corporate human rights abusing multinational with a practical monopoly on search engines.

Finally a question to the mods-I started this topic to discuss people's views on whether violence associated to Islam was due to politics becomming involved with Islam, Islamic theology or something else (and to this got some very interesing and thought provokign answers). Now however the thread-including it's title and turned into a topic on the war on Iraq. PReviously when threads start to wonder off topic the mods lock them and say this has gone off topic it stops here. In this cade the thread is wondering off topic and the mods have changed the title to suit the change. Is this a new policy? If not what makes you decide whether you split/merge/lock or simpyl change the thread title??

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Originally Posted by liam88

Interesting point here..........change the thread title??

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1/Liam - fault is mine for all this - apologies for that - got a bit carried away TBH - only a matter of time before Dahamsta, rightly, bans me for this:o
2/Don't blame Google/messenger - blogs are from Iraqis, Muslims, living in Iraq - what better way to find out the truth?
3/See sites I posted and see if the illegal invasion (UN did NOT sanction it) is for liberation or to do with US interests in the Middle East - check out The Iranian Bourse stuff/oil/dollar/deficit etc. It's got absolutely nothing to do with liberation.
4/Recognise the two characters in this photo?? Read the text under the picture too.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg
5/You're right - it wasn't Saddam's country and it isn't/wasn't the USA's either - what democracy??? What government? What Shi-ite death squads? Check out ethnic cleaning and killings of Arabs in Kurdistan
6/Have a look at the Fallujhah video above and the Iraqi blogs - what do THEY - not you, not I - feel about all this?
7/Everything you mentioned in your post I have a related blog/website/post to give you an over-view.
8/It really does tie in with Islam, the violence and counter violence etc so, in many ways it IS on thread - the Muslim feelings/views etc of us in the West from centuries of abuse. Listen to the two Fisk speeches I posted.
9/Just read them - especially the blogs -feck Google, they're irrelevant - and then see how you feel.

That's all I ask?? Fair is fair.

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Originally Posted by sirhamish

1/Liam - fault is mine for all this - apologies for that - got a bit carried away TBH - only a matter of time before Dahamsta, rightly, bans me for this:o

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Ah he won't ban you 'hamish, but he is going to kick your arse for quoting entire posts again.:D

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Originally Posted by strangeirish

Ah he won't ban you 'hamish, but he is going to kick your arse for quoting entire posts again.:D

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Sorted.:p ;) heh heh

Fair play Hamish-I wasn't slating you. I know I got a bit carried away with the anti-google sentiment-just the way RDB said you quote sites "Google didn't know about". Will look through some mroe of your blogs when I get a chance-just as i mentioned before look as Iraq pre/post liberation/invasion....Bush etc. brough Iraq it's first democratic vote in over 50 years....I know Iraq isn't perfect but was it really any better under Saddam? Bush hasn't made the change but he's potentially given the Iraqi people the chance to achieve it by removing Saddam.....now the future is in the Iraqi people's hands

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Originally Posted by liam88

Fair play Hamish-I wasn't slating you. I know I got a bit carried away with the anti-google sentiment-just the way RDB said you quote sites "Google didn't know about". Will look through some mroe of your blogs when I get a chance-just as i mentioned before look as Iraq pre/post liberation/invasion....Bush etc. brough Iraq it's first democratic vote in over 50 years....I know Iraq isn't perfect but was it really any better under Saddam? Bush hasn't made the change but he's potentially given the Iraqi people the chance to achieve it by removing Saddam.....now the future is in the Iraqi people's hands

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Nah, know you weren't slating me Liam amigo. Sadly, many Iraqis are saying that life is as bad now as it was in Saddam's times - unbelievable as that sounds.
It's the reasons WHY Bush and his cronies invaded is what makes me furious. You'll see when you check out the various posts/blogs. Nowt to do with WMD, 9/11 - the reason they said they invaded. Check out recent data - ie Downing Street report and others - he'd already made up his mind as had PNAC. Liberation was just a snow job.

Split here.

Colin Powell finally comes clean :mad:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/..._libby_powell/

Excerpt
“The CIA was pushing the aluminum tube argument heavily and Cheney went with that instead of what our guys wrote,” Powell said. And the Niger reference in Bush’s State of the Union speech? “That was a big mistake,” he said. “It should never have been in the speech. I didn’t need Wilson to tell me that there wasn’t a Niger connection. He didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know. I never believed it.”

W@nker:mad:

Powell was hung out to dry with that presentation imho. He was, to a great degree, the voice of reason within the Bush administration up to that point, and it was blindingly obvious from days before that he really didn't want to do it; that he knew it would be first nail in his coffin; that everyone knew he knew, etc, etc. Someone somewhere in the Bush administration has some major dirt on Powell. The "biolabs" have been exposed as another Bush administration fraud, of course. Who didn't see that happening?

Clinton gets impeached for telling a porkie about having his winkle quaffed by a loose-lipped groupie, and still nobody's called for Bush's head? But what would be the point? There's nothing in it after all...

adam

Time to change to a different tack. What do we find on PlanetMuslim today, I wonder?? :cool:

Ah, I see, yet another flimsy excuse for a scrap. Just a normal day out for them then. :o

Here's more on that aspect Dahamsta

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4518.htm
Excerpt
In recent weeks, any “plausibility” has all but evaporated. Many biological warfare specialists in the US and elsewhere were skeptical from the start. Now Defense Intelligence Agency specialists have joined their counterparts at the State Department and elsewhere in concluding that the two trailer/laboratories discovered in Iraq in early May are hydrogen-producing facilities for weather balloons to calibrate Iraqi artillery, as the Iraqis have said.

Poodle Bliar is now on his own in Europe

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp...D)&language=EN

Some Steve Bell cartoons on the Iraq and related matters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...284265,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...738726,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...726082,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...720563,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...715240,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...673408,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...656182,00.html :D
Shouldn't be laughing really given the seriousness of it all

As for Bush's brain, this is for you Dahamsta
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...602767,00.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Time to change to a different tack. What do we find on PlanetMuslim today, I wonder?? :cool:

Ah, I see, yet another flimsy excuse for a scrap. Just a normal day out for them then. :o

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Mypost, if I see another post along those lines here, you're not going to be able to post here any more. Don't argue with me about this, you won't win. Just resist the temptation to post something like that again, and we'll get along just fine.

Always thought Powell was the smartest one there tbh.

Still do

Apart from Bush they're all pretty smart Dodge. You can be nutty and smart at the same time, as many posters on Foot.ie prove regularly. :)

Less of the backchat or I'll have a face demote you...

Of course they're smart but I meant it in the sensible way rather than looney extremists

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Less of the backchat or I'll have a face demote you...

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Actually, face can't. James probably could. [EDIT: But not any more!] :)

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Of course they're smart but I meant it in the sensible way rather than looney extremists

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Righty-ho. Rice isn't too bad either, but only in comparison to the loony-toon i-want-i-want-i-want hawks. The old doll reckons she'd make a good president; I think she's nuts. (The old doll that is. I'll reserve judgement on Condi. Having an oil tanker named after you can't be good foryour mental health.)

Yeah, poor deluded woman thinking there's ever going to be a woman president, never mind a black woman president, never mind a black woman president with a hispanic firstname, never mind a black woman with a hispanis firstname and a staple of the asian diet for a surname.

That's the thing Dodge, you can actually see a large percentage of Americans voting for her for all those reasons. You know, because Fox/God/George told them too? Not a majority though. Sure who needs majorities?

Some more news on Iraq/Al Qaeda etc

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/14328188.htm

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/200...qaeda_myth.php

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Originally Posted by sirhamish

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/200...qaeda_myth.php

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Although I'm not surprised, I genuinely did not know that. I'd wonder how many people do. Worth linking to his source material, since he's a relative unknown:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...750139,00.html

Quote:

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The official inquiry into the 7 July London bombings will say the attack was planned on a shoestring budget from information on the internet, that there was no 'fifth-bomber' and no direct support from al-Qaeda

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(Yes, it's the Observer, however the information comes from the official enquiry.)

adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Although I'm not surprised, I genuinely did not know that. I'd wonder how many people do. Worth linking to his source material, since he's a relative unknown:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...750139,00.html



(Yes, it's the Observer, however the information comes from the official enquiry.)

adam

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If it's Tom Paine Dahamsta - got that story via Information Clearing House but also got Tom Paine before via Smudge Report - column on bottom right.
http://www.smudgereport.com/

The website is named after a US "Founding Father" Tom Paine.
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/

Since Islam is in the thread, here's an interesting story from The American Reporter website.
http://www.american-reporter.com/

Notice a big rise in US soldiers killed in Iraq in last week - 2366 now - was 2342 about a week ago. Numbers killed per month had dropped over past few months but have risen again in past week. Mostly sectarian killing in Iraq and it's spreading even to Kurdish area and many Iraqi areas now.
Situation doesn't look good at all. Doubt if even a Prime Minister is agreed upon if it will make a blind bit of difference.

If the Democrats had any balls and weren't. with a few exceptions, Tweedledee to the Rethuglians Tweedledum, we'd see real opposition to the c.unts running America.
There is a chance they might win at least one of the two US houses in Novermber - then they'd have the numbers to really investigate Bubble Boy and cronies. But would they even bother?

What I would give to see is Bubble Boy, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice etc in orange Guantanamo suits with foot shackles shuffling out of the White House with buckets of manure being hurled at them - with apologies to manure.

The Democrats are starting to smell blood now. The elections down the road here in the 50th district (to replace Randy "Duke" Cunningham) yesterday showed a significant shift in support. Democrat Francine Busby "won" by what would be seen by many as a landslide, she recieved 42% of the vote while her nearest contender had 14%. It has to be said thought that the republicans ran a savage amount of candidates (14 I think) thus splitting their vote quite a bit. Unfortunately for Francine (and the Dems) to win the seat the winner has to get 51% of the vote - so now there'll be a run off election in 2 months or so.

This is however no credit to the Democrats, as you said Hamish while the sh!t has been hitting the fan (and very publically at that) for the last year or more the Dems just sat on their hands and done nothing about it!!! Feingold (sp?) couldn't even get a decent amount of them to support his censure motion FFS.

The Dems are in a strong position now purely because the Republicans are sh!ttin' in their own nest. They are a very, very weak party...and TBH they're just the best of a bad bunch. More parties needed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dancinpants

The Democrats are .................................................. ..............are a very, very weak party...and TBH they're just the best of a bad bunch. More parties needed?

---

Yeah, dancinpants, I've been following Busby via Newshounds website and Crooks & Liars and I noticed how Faux "News" did a smear job on her a few days ago, playing soundbites from Rep. adverts about her financial backers etc etc. Needless to say, they ignored all the corruption surrounding the Rethuglicans in that very area. C & L and Newhounds DID provide that evidence.

Wish a few others had balls like Feingold but here's an example of what
p!sses me off about the Dems. This is from a left(ish) website BTW

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12707.htm
Wasn't she a Republican when Bill first met her anyway.:rolleyes:

More comment on Iraqi deaths
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12728.htm

Baghdad Morgue Overflowing - 60 to 100 bodies a day:(
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=32897

US allies are behind the Death Squads and Ethnic Cleansing (Guardian)
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12732.htm

Coming Home - Dissillusioned - Marine Corp. soldier
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12736.htm

Dead Cities - eg Fallujah (Moscow Times)
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12734.htm

Since yesterday, 4 more US soldiers killed - 2,370
April now a bad month for US soldiers:(

But hey, Iraq is liberated, had elections - don't worry, be happy.:rolleyes:

[/b]Given Dahamsta's comments on Powell in post 61 above - this talk by Col. Larry Wilkerson to the Middle East Institute recently is worth watching.

Wilkerson was sidekick to Powell in the US administration and is a "Traditional" Republican and, as he says himself, "no bleeding heart liberal".

He makes a worrying comparison between China/Taipei and Turkey/Kurdistan**.
But he covers a multitude of areas which enlighten us as to the workings of the US administration, the players within and without it.

Some genuinely worrying stuff here.

** Even if the Kurds stay,as an automous region, within an Iraq framework. Most people would love to see a free Kurdish nation but, unless the West can pressure Turkey into an agreement - maybe using EU membership as a bargaining chip - there looks like trouble ahead.:(
His comments on Iran's role in southern Iraq and trouble involving Shi-ites over all the Middle East (not all Iranians are either Shi-ite or Persians BTW) and there being a possible Shi-ite v Shi-ite scenario, Sunni v everyone else and so on. The Israeli influence on the US regime is also touched on - delicately but you get the message.

The talk was on C-Span and it's via Information Clearing House.

Comments appreciated.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12730.htm

Throughout this national nightmare, I keep returning to the famous quote from a "senior advisor to Bush" reported in Ron Suskind's article in the Times:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.

Unbelievable:(

U.S. ignored Shiite militias, focused on Sunni insurgency

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14364039.htm

Extracts
-White House and Pentagon officials ignored a stream of warnings from American intelligence agencies about the mounting danger posed by two Shiite militias, the Badr Organization and the Mahdi Army. The Badr Organization is the armed wing of the Iranian-backed Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, the most powerful Shiite political faction in the country; the Mahdi Army is loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr

"The American politicians couldn't understand the deepness and complications of the region," said Falah al-Nakib, the interior minister from June 2004 to April 2005, who said he raised the militia problem and the growing Iranian influence in Iraq with U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld. "They didn't take us seriously."

"I am against militias, but because of the situation in Iraq we need militias to protect us," said Transportation Minister Salam al-Maliki, a key al-Sadr political negotiator who deeply dislikes the U.S. presence in Iraq. "America doesn't know anything about militias in Iraq; it hasn't come up with any solution for them."

Baghdad street battle smacks of open civil war (Reuters via ICH)
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...archived=False
Extract
"It appeared to be the first example of a large-scale, open sectarian street battle in the capital, if not all of Iraq."

The Ongoing War on Truth in Iraq
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12777.htm
Extract
"But in Adhamiya, every night now for several weeks roads have been closed with tires, trunks of date palm trees and other objects to prevent "kidnappers and Shia death squads" from entering the area, according to one source, whom I'm keeping anonymous for security reasons."

http://www.wral.com/apworldnews/8793920/detail.html
Extract
Sunni leaders echoed the charges, blaming the Shiite-dominated government for the violence. They accused Shiite militias and government forces of taking advantage of the current power vacuum to step up "ethnic cleansing" in predominantly Sunni neighborhoods in Baghdad.

I have this in the Iran thread but it could just as easily fit here.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12798.htm
"Extract
We now know that the BBC and other British media were used by MI6, the secret intelligence service. In what was called "Operation Mass Appeal," MI6 agents planted stories about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction – such as weapons hidden in his palaces and in secret underground bunkers. All these stories were fake. But this is not the point. The point is that the dark deeds of MI6 were quite unnecessary. Recently, the BBC's director of news, Helen Boaden, was asked to explain how one of her "embedded" reporters in Iraq, having accepted U.S. denials of the use of chemical weapons against civilians, could possibly describe the aim of the Anglo-American invasion as to "bring democracy and human rights" to Iraq. She replied with quotations from Blair that this was indeed the aim, as if Blair's utterances and the truth were in any way related. On the third anniversary of the invasion, a BBC newsreader described this illegal, unprovoked act, based on lies, as a "miscalculation." Thus, to use Edward Herman's memorable phrase, the unthinkable was normalized."

The BBC are still doing it..............

Downing Street Memo, etc etc - more truth leaks out

White House knew there were no WMD: CIA
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12809.htm

Extract
"We said: 'Well, what about the intel?' And they said: 'Well, this isn't about intel anymore. This is about regime change'," added Drumheller, whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi official.


Another angle regarding all those death squads in Iraq - again, truth is leaking out for past few weeks - here's more
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12802.htm
America’s Terror-war in Iraq

Extract
More evidence of American complicity surfaced in a Boston Globe article which stated, “The FBI's counterterrorism unit has launched a broad investigation of US-based theft rings after discovering some vehicles used in deadly car bombings in Iraq, including attacks that killed US troops and Iraqi civilians, were probably stolen in the United States, according to senior US Government officials.” (“Cars Stolen in US used in Suicide Attacks”, Bryan Bender)
End of extract




The US regime sinks into even darker levels of corruption and obscene behaviour.
In addition, any interfering with Iran will bring about Iraq Shia retaliation too.
Turkey has also moved 40,000 soldiers to Kurdish area in Iraq - as predicted.
New Iraqi Prime Minister won't make a blind bit of difference sadly.
HG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gonzo

Hmm..........must be SH 40 MP 0.....Athlone's biggest ever win over Shams! ;)

---

Be not too hard on mypost Gonzo. TBF to him, he argues with civility and vibrancy and if he believes what he believes, then there's nothing I can do except present more evidence. He's a sound bloke and I'm fond of him. That appears very patronising I know but, fcuk it, I'm an auld softy.
But there is one thing I do share with mypost, a hope that Iraq will have an end to the dreadful killings and maimings that go on there daily. I just feel that it was/is an illegal and unnecessary war based on lies and cherry-picked "evidence". To see the huge number of deaths and maimed - soldiers and civilians - for all this is dreadful.
Plus all that treasure which could have been used to help the tens of millions of US citizens who have no health insurance (45 million) and tens of millions of US folks who live below the poverty line.
It's all just plain wrong.

Here's more evidence that the WMD excuse was an out and out lie.
This from former CIA man Tyler Drumheller in Sunday's "60 minutes" programme.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/04/23.html#a8020

Some more information on all this

New Plans Foresee Fighting Terrorism Beyond War Zones
(Washington Post)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...201124_pf.html
Extract
For example, SOCOM has dispatched small teams of Army Green Berets and other Special Operations troops to U.S. embassies in about 20 countries in the Middle East, Asia, Africa and Latin America, where they do operational planning and intelligence gathering to enhance the ability to conduct military operations where the United States is not at war

We Are The Deciders
"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity." ~~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
By Sheila Samples
Extract
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12817.htm
Of course Rumsfeld must go. And, ultimately, he will take George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice and the rest of the depraved warmongers with him. The American people have finally had enough of aggressive stupidity.

And we are the deciders.

MUST WATCH VIDEO

Hijacking Catatrophe - from CNN

An hour and 5 minutes long - video quality (and some times sound quality) not the best.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6895.htm

This is worrying.........

Kurdistan: Dangerous Passage
Turkey embraces 'hot pursuit' in northern Iraq.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12555396/site/newsweek/

Extracts
Over recent weeks, some 200,000 Turkish troops, backed by tanks and helicopter gunships, have massed along the mountainous border with Iraq

Shia militiamen from Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army have begun moving into oil-rich Kirkuk, claimed as part of Kurdistan.

............. is that the Kurds will need U.S. help to contain any Shia designs on oil-rich Kirkuk.

hamish

Would it be true to say at this stage the Republicans wanted to impeach Clinton because they never get any action? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

hamish

Would it be true to say at this stage the Republicans wanted to impeach Clinton because they never get any action? :D

---

Wha?? Did you not hear about the Bush twin and what she was up to during the night of celebrations after he "won" the 2004 election? Clinton started a trend you know.

Most young Americans can't find Iraq on map - study
(And New Orleans, and everywhere else H)
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...HY.xml&src=rss

Ordered to Iraq 10 months before retirement
Iowa teacher-grandmother, 52, in Navy Reserve deploys for security work
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12581184/
(Janey, she's the same age as me:eek: - if that's the case HEY mypost, Condex - off ye go, join up - there are Irish citizens in the US army in Iraq plus 30,000 illegal Mexican immigrants so they'll take anyone now. They're even letting in jailbirds, low graders and looney tunes in now. You guys support the war don't you?? - Dubya - if your intelligence services are monitoring Footie - sign them up -you can use one of those rendition planes -- we'll look the other way like we've been doing for three years now.
Sign Mypost and Condex up
SIGN 'EM UP NOW.)

Oh, before I forget - you all know that US army families are running raffles, borrowing money etc to provide body armour for their sons in Iraq 'cos Rumsfeld and his cronies won't provide enough??
Well, here's an offer. Since Mypost and Condex are really up for this Iraqi "liberation", if you guys sign up, I, Hamish, witnessed by any Footiepersons here plus Dahamsta, do hereby promise to donate 200 euro (100 each**) towards the cost of your body armour if you sign up to fight your phony war. Right now lads, time to either put up or shut up. SIGN UP

**ok ok it's only 100 euros each - still fcuking more than Rumsfeld values his soldiers.

Now, one recruitment form for Condex
http://www.goarmy.com/contact/how_to_join.jsp?hmref=cs

and one for Mypost
http://www.goarmy.com/contact/how_to_join.jsp?hmref=cs


I think I should start a survey.:D

Right Arabist and Right Zionists. Fundamentalist Iranian Shi-ites and "moderate" Iraqi Shi-ites. Strands within the neo-con agenda.

This is one of the best articles I've read yet on the Middle East/Iraq/Iran/Israel/Saudi Arabian situation. I've read recently that the most oil-rich part of Saudi Arabia is a Shi-ite region yet the Shi-ites there have poor levels of employment, education etc. This article really explores in depth the links/fractures in the US and Middle East and likely outcomes.

A definite must-read. It's a bit heavy but gets behind and tries to put some substance on all the labels and shallow coverage.

The headline is a bit bland itself (sub editor?) and doesn't do the article justice really. Even those who might agree with the Iraqi war will find this interesting.

Beyond Incompetence: Washington's War in Iraq
By Jonathan Cutler

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12935.htm
Extract
"The Left would do well to remember that there are at least two imperialist camps in Washington -- one Right Arabist and one Right Zionist. Both are "sensible," within the framework of imperialist statecraft. "

Imagine Bush The Fool reading through this article.:D

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12935.htm


Another thing I noted - and covered by many articles in ICH - is that the many of the Generals who have criticised Rumsfeld (and by implication Bush, Cheney and co) - most have NOT criticised the US for invading Iraq but HOW the war and it's aftermath in particular was conducted. Like Robert McNamara from the past, some have developed a "conscience" on retiring and are now in a blame game too when they were mute when actually involved in the Iraqi plans and attack - save them from getting the sack I guess like one General (Shinseki I think) who criticised Rumsfeld over troop levels and was promptly given the boot.
Like an onion, there are layers upon layers in all this and the current elevation of these Generals to "hero" status is a tad over the top.

Have a look at this quick clip from Hardball - US TV politics programme. Shows newly trained Iraqi soldiers' reaction when told where they were to be stationed.
Nothing like discipline eh?:D

....................are those the people we are betting our future on?


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/05/04.html#a8166

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hamish

Now, one recruitment form for Condex
http://www.goarmy.com/contact/how_to_join.jsp?hmref=cs

---

What a sad geezer you are spending most of your day (9.04 posts per day for 1.5 years) trawling lefty blogs/websites. Your like a muck spreader cr*p in and cr*p out, can't be healthy!! A bit of advice, ditch the broadband and get out a bit more.:rolleyes:

PS: I've attached a picture of your hero, print it out and put it on your bedroom wall.:D