And you support who? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Arsenal didn't need to win by 3 or 4, so why press for it if Juve were as you say so bad?
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And you support who? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Arsenal didn't need to win by 3 or 4, so why press for it if Juve were as you say so bad?
If you wanna talk about muppets I think Platt and Quinn are right up there with the best of the muppets. Neither of them ever has an intelligent word to say and they get caught up in the Sky hype that is the British teams. At least Giles is able to sit back and analyse the game as a true professional that he is and from a non bias perspective. Juve have been poor over the last few months and they were terrible over the last 2 games. That is not to take away from Arsenal as its a great job done and they were brilliant in the 1st leg. But they were far from brilliant last night and there passiing was terrible and Gilberto was one of the main culprits of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford
What difference does it make who I support. Has nothing to do with this discussion. Arsenal were fantastic in the 1st leg and poor last night. Simple as that.
Giles was a complete arsehole last night, annoys the **** out of me. Arsenal were playing away from home against the Italian league leaders, with a 2-0 lead. What would you do, go gung ho, or see how the water is settling for the first 10-20 minutes.
I thought Arsenal did quite well without being brilliant, and with some better finishing could have won the game easily..
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Originally Posted by Clifford
Also I did not say 3 or 4 I said 2 or 3. If you are going to argue against me at least try to quote me correctly please.
Nah, there must've been some other game on last night..I'm sure of it now..Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford
The job was done perfectly..?! Arsenal were defending their 18 yards line and not doing it very well, couildn't clear the ball, hacking at it, nervous. However the crucial reason why Arsenal are through is because Juve were so diabolical that they didn't need to do anything. Arsenal could have defended their goal line and Juve still would've hit the ball high to Ibrahimovic - it got to the stage where they couldn't even hoof the ball accurately. It's all they did all night - lack of discipline, lack of effort, it was a disgraceful performance from Juventus and all Arsenal had to do was stay out on the pitch at the end.
Juve players walking nee trudging with 20 minutes left, slowing the game down, no invention, no guile, no willingness to unlock a defence that Bolton do with ease - "Juventus are playing wihthout a single midfielder on the pitch" - to be outmuscled in midfield by Arsenal.....?!! You'd have to be bad..:eek:
I wouldn't be a bit surprised that Villareal make it a clean sweep of English sides they've played. Ignorance from Premiership watchers of they only have Riquelme and Forlan was rubbish at Utd. really gets to me when Villareal have prevailed against teams far better than Arsenal. Could well be an all Spanish final..:cool:
Or perhaps we should stick to the English media line of "Arsenal heroes stoically hold out in Turin cauldron":rolleyes:
I'd say it's relevant, I know I never see the wood for the trees when it comes to my team's greatest rivals.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Great to see all the differing opinions, IMHO. That's what it's all about.
You think they HAD to go there and win by 2 or 3 (sorry for saying 3 or 4 earlier, I'll never do it again even though it was in no way quoting you, it was all my own figures which I thought was allowed!), I thought they knew they had the job done in leg one and didn't need to do anything more than keep Juve at arms length.
Both are valid opinions on the job they had to do. Wegner is no fool, Johnny Giles called him a liar ffs, that's a disgrace. Giles is outdated, thinks every game should be a 3-3 classic. I'd love to see him actually compliment a team on a performance, he even said Arsenal's win in Madrid was cos Madrid were so bad, not cos the Arsenal were so good. Give me a break.
Did anyone see the under 19 Irish Ruby match yesterday. Is keith Earls a star in the making. :cool:
Again you have mis quoted me I did not say they had to win by 2 or 3. I said that Giles said that a really great Arsenal team would gone on to beat Juve by 2 or 3. If Arsenal had of played well last night they would have won by 2 or 3. Because they did not play well and Juve were worse the game ended 0-0. Thats fair enough and Arsenal can rightly celebrate. However its the job of the pundit to analyse the game in front of him and he using his vast amount of knowledge of the game saw that Arsenal played poorlya and Juve were even worse. Arsenal gave the ball away numerous times only to receive it back from long punts by Juve. Even Liam Brady was saying he could not believe how badly Juve played and that Arsenal were poor and they need to lift their game for the next match against Villareal.
Secondly my support for spurs is pretty minimal compared to my support for Ireland and I like this Arsenal team as they play good football and very attractive to watch. I hope they get to the final and play Barcalona who bea them as they play even nicer football to watch. Arseanl are no rival of mine as I live in Dublin so the rivalry of the north london derby bears no significance to a guy from Dublin.
So why would they do anything else if Juve were so crap? To entertain you? The job was done in the home leg, for years that's the way teams have played - win at home and go for draw away from home, Pool did it last season and if it get's you through I can't see the prob to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Totally agree with you in regard to Villareal, I think they will really push Arsenal and are finding form at the right time of the season.Quote:
I wouldn't be a bit surprised that Villareal make it a clean sweep of English sides they've played. Ignorance from Premiership watchers of they only have Riquelme and Forlan was rubbish at Utd. really gets to me when Villareal have prevailed against teams far better than Arsenal. Could well be an all Spanish final..:cool:
Or perhaps we should stick to the English media line of "Arsenal heroes stoically hold out in Turin cauldron"
Yet by stating Villareal have prevailed againast teams far better than Arsenal you imply Inter are world beaters to suit your argument, yet they are how far behing Juve at the mo? So by using your own argument how the hell did Villareal only draw in the San Siro?
Yet such nobodies as Wegner, Henry, Lunjburg and almost every paper this morning saw it as a job well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Hail to Johnny the king of everything. Every game is poor to him, that's the problem.
No he said the game last week was an excellent game so thats one game so you are wrong by saying every game is poor to him.
Did I say that Wenger or Henry or lunjberg are nobodies. No I didnt however they are on the inside and ther views are hardly objective. From their perspective it was job well done and they are going to make those noises. However if they wanna win the trophy they should take a hard look at the performance last night and ask themselves why did they give the ball away so much against a very poor performing Juventus. That is what makes great teams great that they were always striving to get better and not letting the result influence their judgment of the performance.
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Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Did I say you said they said? No.
So who thinks they are nobodies then, Are you suggesting they are nobodies. Where did the issue of Wenger and Henry and Lljunberg being nobodies come up unless you were inferring that i was suggesting that Giles was the only person to listen to and the rest were nobodies.
Giles suggested it, he called Wenger a liar when he said he had a game plan - then proceeded to say his thoughts were right Wegner was wrong. Henry and Lunj had the same line as Wegner, so I'm implying Giles thinks managers are not worth listening to (he said so).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Giles said Wenger was a liar when he said that the performance that Arsenal gave last night was the game plan. He did not say Wenger was a liar when he said that he had a game plan. Their is a crucial difference there.
Giles is right to call Wenger a liar if Wenger tried to suggest that the game plan by Arsenal last night was to give the ball away and be nervous at the back when their was no need to be despite the poor performance of Juve. I am sure his game plan was to paly it tight, to expect a rather British style of game from Juve which they lived up to but in addition to that to use the ball as constructively as they possibley can. They did not do that throughtout the game and only really did when Juve went down to ten men.
Giles was right about most aspects of last nights games and most of the time the players and managers reactions are not worth listening to as they are not allowed say much and usually offer banal anyalysis of the games. Look what happens when Roy Keane offered an honest assessment of a game. Now I am not saying that players should always be honest as there is a bit of real politik that needs to be used here on occasions. Thats why we have pundits who are free to say what they want and are not inbedded within the club.
Yeah ok, if that's what you think. As a Spurs fan I don't expect anything to change in this viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Who he supports is irrevant. He is right and backs up his points well. Arsenal were poor. Their passing was sloppy which had nothing to do with a game plan of playing it tight. No one was expecting them to go out and try to beat Juventas 3 or 4 nil but if they had played well they would have. Regardless of whether they ever passed the half way line all night if their passing and movement had been better they wouldn't be getting critised as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford
Juventas were shocking but still towards the end they had chances to score and put the game on a knife edge for the last few minutes. This wouldn't have happened had Arsenal been playing and passing well-regardless of whether they scored or not
Well said Micls that is the point that I was and I think Giles was trying to make last night. It was nothing to do with a game plan that Arsenal played poorly it was to do with how they gave the ball away and they would have won by 2 or 3 goals if they played well as Juve were that poor as there bottle and team ethic had gone.
Of course not, makes no difference at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
Also as I said I am glad Arsenal got through and I hope they get to the final and play Barca so me having allegiances towards Spurs has nothng to do with it. As I explained earlier I am not a guy growing up with the rivalry of Spurs Arsenal and I dont see how as a resident of Dublin that I should buy in to that rivalry. I just have a liking for the traditions of spurs play and the fact that Robbie Keane and Chris Hughton are there makes me want them to do well.
Whatever about me not watching the same game as some of you, what about this, from today's Examiner:
Disciplined Gunners close in on holy grail
Juventus 0 Arsenal 0 (Agg 0-2)
By Jim van Wijk, San Siro
ARSENAL held their nerve to reach the semi-finals of the Champions League for the first time following last night’s goalless draw with Juventus.
If this guy was at the San Siro, he definitely saw a different game!
I accept Neil's comments as objective observations. I still think the fact that Arsenal got what they wanted with the minimum of fuss and creating a few gilt-edged chances in the process deserves credit.
Why did I think it was quality? Jens Lehmann's handling & positioning. Arsenal's breaking on the counter. Henry's first touch. Eboue's raiding of the right flank. Toure's reading of the game. Fabregas' ability to take a difficult ball, control it and turn in the same motion and have the vision to pick the best pass available, all in an instant. I thought all of this was quality.
I accept that Hleb's first touch is heavy & he gave the ball away quite a bit. Reyes went down easily too often (the ref was very good at spotting what was a genuine free and what was a player just looking for it), Gilberto was careless on occasion & Flamini was indisciplined (though for his yellow card there was no contact).
But to play that game out with the mimimum of threat from Juventus deserves credit, even if Juventus were poor.
Good post Stuttgart.
John Giles has many a bias so to say he analyses a game from a non bias perspective is untrue. He has a bias against the present day Premiership along with that person whose name I dare not speak. He had a bias against Charlton and McCarthy. He has a bias against Chelsea - the list goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Well done on debating the points :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford
I don't support either team so how do you explain me agreeing with almost all of his points....
Supporting a rival team doesn't make your points invalid. Im sure some people can put their biases aside especially when the team they support isn't even involved. As you don't think this is possible I presume that's because you are unable to do so. Don't presume everyone else is the same
who does anybody think will win it now???
didnt see any of this weeks games myself. Milan or Bartcelona any good?????
Milan were poor and Lyon should have won but failed to take their chances....Barcelona weren't fantastic but did the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
Still fancy Barcelona but would love to see Villa real win
I thought Milan were second best against Lyon & were very fortunate to go through. I only saw snap highlights of Barcelona and they got a slice of luck for their goal, missed a penalty and conceded at least one gilt-edged chance to Benfica. From what little I saw they were none too convincing. The best performances in the QFs came from Arsenal and Villareal I thought, and arguably Lyon too.
Who'll win? Too close to call. Each team has an arguement in its favour I reckon.
I didn't hear Johnny Giles' comments but judging by what I've read here, he is talking absolute ******! It's a pity they didn't press Johnny to see which great Arsenal team he was referring to. Was it the great Arsenal teams a few year back that went into Away games against Juventus & Valencia requiring only a draw to go through and miserably failed? Was it the 2004 Unbeaten Champions Team that held a one goal lead and (an away goal in the bag) against Chelsea with 20 minutes remaining. Which team was he talking about becuase I've never seen an Arsenal team at this stage of the tournament get a result that mattered let alone a 2 or 3 goal win away from home.
The performance last night I felt was controlled. I never once felt that Juve were going to get back into it. I thought we were incredibly dangerous on the counter attack - Eboue's chance to cross, Henry bistering run on goal thet he overhit into Buffon, the two Ljungberg slightly overhit while in on goal, Fabregas shot on target after great work by Hleb, Hleb's solo run and effort. I kid you not when I say Arsenal had more chances on goal last night than they did in a 5-1 away win at Inter a few years back and contary to popular belief the only difference in performances was we hit the net that night.
The defence was solid too, every effort at goal was long distance and there was a couple of crosses that player of the year Lehmann just lapped up. This Arsenal team have smashed the 10 year standing defensive record in the Champions League last night without 3 regular International defenders in the last 4 games. That is something none of Johnny's great Arsenal teams have ever managed, not even the famous back 5.
Still though Juve were useless and Arsenal couldnt capitalise on that , fair enough if they came to defend but it doesnt say much about them that they only drew against a team that turned in such a dire performance
It's pure speculation on my part, but I reckon if Arsenal HAD to score they would have.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Karlos, both the Inter games a few yrs ago were freak results. Sometimes every effort just goes in. It happened at Highbury & it happened in San Siro too.
dunno about last nite as I didnt see it but am sure if they go on to win it the performance wont matter much.the only thing that mattered was the result over the two legs. and they got through. are vilareal any use or have they just had an easy enough path to the semis?still think barcelona will self destruct against Milan but Arsenal v Barcelona would be great final.
A correct slig!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
But to play that game out with the mimimum of threat from Juventus deserves credit
Again, the fact that Juve created nothing had very little to do with Arsenal defending or "enacting their gameplan perfectly" - they were so bad that they wouldn't have scored if Arsenal went off for 10 minutes to have a KitKat.
'Arsenal doing their job' really must undermine performances where teams have actually stopped teams from playing (i.e. 'enacting their gameplan')despite them being on top form, Chelsea v. Liverpool CL semi final - just won the league but only 1 shot on target in 190 minutes of pressure is one perfect example of doing a job under pressure.
Ok, so fair play to Arsenal they're through, but no-one can seriously, be unbiased and say that they 'held out' and were terrific. If they had any ambition, any ruthlessness, any demand to finish such a poor team, they should've and could've won that 3 or 4-0 easily.
It was sad and pitiful to watch that Juventus last night. The Old Lady would be turning in her grave.. :(
That's my point Stutt. Had every chance gone in last night but nothing else changed, would it have been a better performance? Everyone would be saying how great it was but the end result would have been the same, Arsenal Qualify. I've got the Inter game on DVD and it's a very poor game to watch and certainly no better performance wise than last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The Arsenal gameplan was effective as they can't determine what the opposition would bring - that's out of their control. Their gameplan was to be comfortable, not conceed and create chances on the break. All was achieved as the game and the stats show.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
I don't think the Arsenal performance was ever intended to be a drab affair. Arsenal created chances and looked comfortable and never looked like really conceeding.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Your right they didn't hold out. They never had to. They had a two goal lead after an explosive display in the first leg.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Ambition was to get to the semi-final, nothing else. Ambition achieved. Is that enough ambition?Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Read back the thread, we were debating it all morning, why should I bother going over it all again for your interests?? Defeats the purpose really.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
Debate should have two sides at least, you obviously think you are right so we'll leave it there eh. Do as many roll eyes as you like.
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Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I was talkilng about last nights game owls. it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that he does not have any bias as there is not a person on the planet that comments on everything from an objective point of view. Of course he has bias in certain ciscumstances which are formed by his experiences just like you or me. But in this case he does not have any clear bias in favour or against Arsenal.
Just as an aside I presume you are talking about Keane above and I always found that Giles was very middle ground in relation to Keane, maybe its you that has the bias there.
I dont think Giles ever said that Arsenal had a great team.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
Obviously his comments about Strachan being a liar last night then were true, cos we can't believe a manager anymore now can we. Shocking. (Now, before you bring this comment into disrepute, it's aimed at Giles' attack on Strachan despite not having met the guy, not aimed at you in any way shape or form)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I did not hear his comments about Strachan being a liar so I would not comment on that. I have just found that any time the issue of Keane comes up that Giles is generally middle ground in the whole thing. Some people felt he was too harsh on Keane and others felt that he was too pro Keane. That to me is the middle ground. I think if you think he is pro- Keane well that probably says more about that persons view of Keane more than Giles really.
Also I dont agree with everything Giles says but I do agree with his views on Arsenal.