Jim Roddy - All-Ireland League

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Originally Posted by rerun

Thought it was great when the IFA guy was saying about Celtic and Rangers and that they'll never play in England, and Roddy counters with the fact that teams from Wales play in England and there is a football league in Wales.

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The teams from Wales played in England for around 100 years before Wales had a proper National League. The League of Wales only began in 1992.

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Originally Posted by derrymac

Cork City who only started in 1984 could apply under the grounds that it's boring in the FAI . . Eventually even the first division clubs would be playing up north and we could marvel at the clash of Institute vs Kilkenny. We would alas be under the jurisdiction of an organisation as bigoted towards certain clubs as the FAI is, but sure no change there.

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brilliant:D

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Originally Posted by BohsFan

This particular aspect of the argument reminds me of the old classic Monkey Trap story. Basically, in this story, the trapper hollows out a small hole in a tree and baits it with tempting morsels of food to attract monkeys. Eventually a Monkey puts it's hand into the hole and grips the food tightly. The problem for the monkey is that in gripping the food, he makes a fist and he is no longer able to release his hand from the hole in the tree. The trap works successfully only as a result of the monkeys inability to make the correct decision. At any time the monkey can let the food loose and release himself from the trap. His problem is that he is unable to realise that in order to preserve his life he needs to sacrifice the morsels of food. Lacking that intelligence, the monkey remains trapped. I believe that the attraction of easy qualification to Europe is the food in the monkey trap." We are so attracted by the thought of easy euro lucre that we are forgetting that our game and our clubs are having the life strangled out of them by having to compete week in, week out, in competitions no-one is interested in."

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This is gold !!

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

You also seem unwilling to step outside your fascination with mathematical averages

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Mathematical averages are very useful. That's why we have them.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

and accept that the likes of Ards, Larne, Finn Harps, Dublin City etc have little chance of European qualification in the short-to-medium term...it is frankly academic for a lot of teams whether or not the island as a whole loses Euro slots, as they aren't in the running for any such slots north, south, or cross-border anyway.

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But the point is they quite clearly would have less chance in the new league, which defeats your point. You can't use English to argue that "little chance" and "no chance" are the same thing.

Also, Linfield would have much tougher competition for their place in Europe and wouldn't qualify always. Ditto Glentoran and Portadown.

Losing European slots is quite clearly an issue Steve. I've proved it numerous times. Please accept this fact and move on. There are plenty of other issues which would be better for discussion.

(Whether or not it's a big deal, as BohsFan points out, is a different, and interesting, issue. It just annoys me to see people something really forcefully using clearly rubbish maths)

There are way too many clubs playing League football on this island , especially North of the Border. The number of clubs South of the border in financial difficulties is one example of it. There are also a number of clubs North of the border struggling financially. The demise of Omagh Town is another example of it, and over the next 5-10 years I expect to see anywhere from 2-4 clubs South of the Border go bust and another 5-10 clubs North of the border go bust.

That would leave before the advent of an All-Ireland League something like an 18 team Eircom League and possibly only a two division Irish League.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Losing European slots is quite clearly an issue Steve. I've proved it numerous times. Please accept this fact and move on. There are plenty of other issues which would be better for discussion.

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You may think its an issue but it should not be so. An objective behind an all-ireland league would be to ensure professional football in this country through bigger crowds & financing. If clubs only see Europe as a holiday then they don't deserve to be in top flight football anyway.

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Originally Posted by pete

You may think its an issue but it should not be so.

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I'm saying mathematically, it is an issue, which Steve denies. I've said that it's an interesting and unclear issue in reality. However, Europe is a good money-earner, I would have thought - something like E70k prize money just for qualifying, with an extra (usually) big home gate to come and a higher profile and possibly TV money to be had for progression. There mightn't be much money if you get knocked out to some random eastern team in the first round, but I'd hope our league anyway would be looking further than that now to the games against Depor, Lille, Nantes, Kaiserslautern, etc. I wouldn't be convinced that Shels, say, would risk losing a European slot just so they can play Dungannon twice a season.

Just thought i'd throw the cat amongst the pidgeons here but since the initial premise of Derry's inclusion into the LOI in 1985 looks 'anachronistic' (God spite me for saying that word) given the current political process, are there moves underfoot by the IFA to bring Derry City back into the IL.

This could be a double edged sword here being the fact the the talk of the proposed AIL might make the IFA move on Derry. Is Derry's membership of the eL copperfastened by both FIFA & UEFA?

Our presence in the EL is copperfastened by us as a club. It will NEVER EVER happen. I would imagine that every single person who is a regular at the Brandy would feel nauseas at very suggestion of a return. :mad:

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm saying mathematically, it is an issue, which Steve denies.

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And I'm saying it's not an issue full stop - either mathematically or otherwise.

As you say - averages are important, which is why we have them. But averages are also considered broadly irrelevant in predicting sporting performance - which is why bookies use odds, not averages.

And you still refuse to accept that your arguement is one regarding change to the number and quality of teams in the Tiop league - and NOT one specifically regarding an all-island league. Derry City and Bray joining the league in 1985 reduced everyone else's chances of Euro qualification, as did the introduction of Cork and Longford in 1984. The reintroduction of a 12 team league in 2005 will mathematically have had a big impact upon team's chances of Euro qualification - though the fact that only 1 of the 3 league-based Euro qualifying teams altered from the previous season belies how irrelevant this mathematical 'analysis' is in reality. Even Drogheda joining the league in 1963 has now turned out to have reduced everyone elses chances of qualifying for Europe. BIG FECKIN' DEAL !!!!. This exposes what a complete and utter red herring it is to dogmatically criticise an all-island league for the impact it will have on team's mathematical chances of Euro qualification. I don't recall anyone raising the red herring of Euro qualification becoming more difficult when any of these other changes were made to our league ??

Regardless - we'll just have to agree to differ on this one Pineapple. My viewpoint remains unchanged - Euro slots are frankly a mathematical and actual red herring in this whole issue, just as they have been in other league issues were they were equally as 'valid', but remained unmentioned by anyone at all.

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Originally Posted by Partizan

Just thought i'd throw the cat amongst the pidgeons here but since the initial premise of Derry's inclusion into the LOI in 1985 looks 'anachronistic' (God spite me for saying that word) given the current political process, are there moves underfoot by the IFA to bring Derry City back into the IL.

This could be a double edged sword here being the fact the the talk of the proposed AIL might make the IFA move on Derry. Is Derry's membership of the eL copperfastened by both FIFA & UEFA?

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I love the angle of your question Partizan - suggesting that it's at the IFA's discretion on whether or not we would return to the Irish League !

Reality is the complete opposite. The Irish League would take Derry City back in a heartbeat if we wanted. That is a fact. However - another fact is that we simply don't want to. We will not rejoin the Irish League. Why would we ? We're happy in a much better league and doing very well there thank you - without all the sectarian sh!te that is inescapable in Northern football on occassion.

The club's position is very clear - the only way DCFC will be back in the same league as the Northern teams is within an all-island set-up.

Now then - a more interesting, and equally as relevant, question would be - when are Shels and Bohs going to rejoin the Irish League......? :eek: :D

I was down at the debate in Portlaoise and Delaney seemed in favour of an All Ireland League but still seperate associations and everything else.

I'm in favour myself and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it sooner rather than later. I hope we stay on summer soccer though.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

I was down at the debate in Portlaoise and Delaney seemed in favour of an All Ireland League but still seperate associations and everything else.

I'm in favour myself and I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it sooner rather than later. I hope we stay on summer soccer though.

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Your last point is the one thing about an all Ireland League that I would have a problem with, I do not like the idea of summer football. What sort of effect, if any, has it had on attendances down south. I honestly believe it would have a detrimental effect up here. I also don't fancy telling my wife she cannot have her summer holiday because I won't miss watching Linfield for a few weeks, it would be divorce courts here I come. You have the added political difficulties in Northern Ireland every summer to contend with too.

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Originally Posted by David

Your last point is the one thing about an all Ireland League that I would have a problem with, I do not like the idea of summer football. What sort of effect, if any, has it had on attendances down south. I honestly believe it would have a detrimental effect up here. I also don't fancy telling my wife she cannot have her summer holiday because I won't miss watching Linfield for a few weeks, it would be divorce courts here I come. You have the added political difficulties in Northern Ireland every summer to contend with too.

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Just tell your wife its a romantic weekend in Cork :D

summer football hasnt affected attendances, but it sure as hell has improved the quality of football on view and european performance

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Originally Posted by David

What sort of effect, if any, has it had on attendances down south.

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In Cork we used to have average attendances of 1000-2000 for league games and that has risen 4000 with some full houses in that lot. Having replays and fixture pile ups doesn't help as extra games are midweek. Have sold out completely before a few games though. League and Setanta (because its midweek games) are lower attendances because they are midweek.

Over all there is a huge up turn in attendances in recent years and lots of people say its down to the brand of football we play. Summer soccer lends its self to this as players aren't swimming around in muck and can play football on the deck.

As said above ... being in good shape for Europe is THE biggest improvement ... Irish teams used to get spanked but last year people were wincing on the edge of their seats because Shels wouldn't play to their strengths and ended up throwing away a tie which would have been the furthest any Irish teams has ever gone.

its very possible and most likely to happen at some stage in the next ten years. even many unionists would like to see it happen (provided it didnt change the status quo regarding international teams)

where theres a will theres a way- ie 18 team premier governed by a committee of elected ifa/fai/el/il directors, and two regional 1st divisions governed by the fail/el and the ifa/il repsectively would enable everyone to fudge the issue neatly

stubbornly saying "it wont happen" ad nauseum isnt an argument. logic dictates that it will

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I agree entirely. I'm just trying to correct Steve's maths. As a UCD fan, I'd welcome it too (though with the proviso of an expanded Premier). We'd still have the Fair Play award anyway!


If the IFA and the FAI don't join in, there's no European slots at all. The clubs have much less sway than you make out.

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and if the fai and ifa have no league then they have no international team either.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Losing European slots is quite clearly an issue

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its not rally. use your amazing knowledge of maths to average out the amount of games that EL teams play in europe,and the resulting benefits. the benefits of one or two rounds over two weeks of the summer pales in comparison to the potential of a 36 game season in a resurgent All Ireland league
shels got to play in two ruounds of the champions league last summer. their finances hinge on such risks, its actually dangerous for clubs to do so, by basing their financial well'being on two weeks of the summer theyre running huge risks, as oposed to havinga steady 36game season in a financially prudent and regenerated AIL

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

There are way too many clubs playing League football on this island , especially North of the Border. The number of clubs South of the border in financial difficulties is one example of it. There are also a number of clubs North of the border struggling financially. The demise of Omagh Town is another example of it, and over the next 5-10 years I expect to see anywhere from 2-4 clubs South of the Border go bust and another 5-10 clubs North of the border go bust.

That would leave before the advent of an All-Ireland League something like an 18 team Eircom League and possibly only a two division Irish League.

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the second division in the IL is only intermediate, theyre not senior clubs and cruel as it may seem, they can be discarded when it comes to an AIL. given they are intermediate id consider them to be about as relevant to an AIL as leinster senior league teams

(apologies for the multiple posts, just replying as i go through the thread)

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Originally Posted by David

Your last point is the one thing about an all Ireland League that I would have a problem with, I do not like the idea of summer football. What sort of effect, if any, has it had on attendances down south. I honestly believe it would have a detrimental effect up here. I also don't fancy telling my wife she cannot have her summer holiday because I won't miss watching Linfield for a few weeks, it would be divorce courts here I come. You have the added political difficulties in Northern Ireland every summer to contend with too.

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seen cliftonville v loughgall on saturday, the abysmal state of the pitch reminded me of one of the simple but HUGE benefits of summer football-the relatively good state of the pitches in the EL over the last couple of seasons.

as for the parade season and summer holidays....a 2-3 week mid season break in july to allow for international tournaments (ie this year the EL will have a break for the world cup anyway) as well as allowing clubs competing in europe time off from the league to prepare for europe. the fact that it will mean a break in football during the marching season is merely a side benefit that we can pretend we didnt consider..but will benefit us anyway

attendances have stayed more or less averaged the same. i think mid season they are down while the early and late periods of the season the bigger games are seeing better crowds
european rsults have definitely improved. irish league teams should look at this.il teams are embarrassing themselves in europe still while only in the last few years has it seen the EL teams results significantly improve

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Originally Posted by BohsFan

I think if things are to move forward something similar is going to have to happen. If anyone seriously thinks either association gives a twopenny f.uck about senior domestic soccer they need their head examined. This move if it comes will be as a result of a handful of relatively major teams saying "times up lads, we've had enough".

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I'd agree with you there, but i'd really really hope it doesn't come to that. I'd like to see the associations moving with the times, i mean they actually are meant to be leading the way imo.

The FAI and eL are due to merge hopefully within two years time. When (if) that happens, then i think it'll make anything down south more mobile and easier to shuffle around.

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Basically the FAI are up for it, the big clubs North and South are up for it and momentum is a powerful thing.

KOH

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Linfield, officially, are NOT up for an A-IL.

Apologies, if already been posted.

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Originally Posted by A face

The FAI and eL are due to merge hopefully within two years time. When (if) that happens, then i think it'll make anything down south more mobile and easier to shuffle around.

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IFA and Il combined up here now and its all still a joke. Hopefully when your amalgamation goes ahead its more benificial than the s..t we have.

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Originally Posted by BohsFan

I think if things are to move forward something similar is going to have to happen. If anyone seriously thinks either association gives a twopenny f.uck about senior domestic soccer they need their head examined. This move if it comes will be as a result of a handful of relatively major teams saying "times up lads, we've had enough".

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Nail on head, here.

I don't know what contempt the FAI has for it's senior members but I do know the IFA has thrown (almost all) it's lot in with the national side, whilst continuing to maladminister the local league. We have been allocated £8million govt. money for the sport (at all levels) but on the proviso that the IFA is re-organised root and canal.

This has been ongoing for TWO years and clubs are deprived of much needed cash whilst the suits bicker over which gravy train to de-rail.

"Times up, we've had enough". Yeah, but the loss of European places will hit the Glens hard, particularly as we qualify virtually every year (and made a tidy sum this year with minimal travelling costs to Dublin, rather than, say, Israel). Personally, I like a trip to Europe but it's a one/two game excursion and I'd much rather watch a higher standard of football each week.

The issue of national sides shouldn't be side-stepped. Feelings run deeper here than whether we play Loughgall or Bohs.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

IFA and Il combined up here now and its all still a joke. Hopefully when your amalgamation goes ahead its more benificial than the s..t we have.

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Dassa, if anything it's got progressively worse because the contempt for the irish League, displayed by the new streamlined suit, was never more obvious than the ridiculous fines totalling £26k handed out to Glentoran and Linfield lst week.

Particularly after the shabby and shady way they managed the whole affair.

lets face it there are no big trips around the world for free connected to IL or EL football so many within the associations just dont give a f..k. you know who were talking about.

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Originally Posted by A face

In Cork we used to have average attendances of 1000-2000 for league games and that has risen 4000 with some full houses in that lot. Having replays and fixture pile ups doesn't help as extra games are midweek. Have sold out completely before a few games though. League and Setanta (because its midweek games) are lower attendances because they are midweek.

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With a much more successful team it has to be said.

Attendances seem to be up at successful clubs, down at the rest especially rural clubs. So pretty much the same as it ever was. It certainly hasn't been the great benefit that some proponates claim - has to be taken as part of more professional clubs, better players, as well as better pitches and better weather.

I was at a game in england over the weekend, and give me Saturday afternoon, 3pm kick off, winter football on crisp afternoons like that rather than summer football, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by BohsFan

The simple fact of this matter is that the moment a handful of top teams agree in principle to an all island league and then go to their associations and TELL them it is going to happen then all the head shaking from the likes of Jim Boyce won't be worth a tinkers****.

If a total of ten teams from the north and south make this decision and form a company to administer and promote the concept then the game is up. Simple as. Yes the IFA can try to play tough but if the IL loses two or three from the following: Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown, Glenavon or Crusaders then the IL as a senior contest is over. Slightly higher numbers signing up would be needed from the EL but take, say, any four or five from the following, Shelbourne, Derry, Cork, Bohs, St Pats, Sligo, Finn Harps, Drogheda and the EL is pretty ****ed.

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ya know i doubt it would even take that many clubs to force change, id hazard a guess that if any two of the big three up north were to back such a proposal combined with any three of shels, bohs, cork and derry the ifa and fai would be facing a serious problem..

and as regards fifa and uefa blocking it, i fail to see how they could, as was mentioned before the combination of our entitlement to dual nationality under the gfa, and the eu's restraint of trade laws suggests, to me at least, that they could be sucesfully challenged on this.

and as regards this opening the floodgates for other clubs such as celtic to join bigger leagues, surely this would be seen as an exceptional case given the political situation in this country?

or course im far from an expert on any of the aforementioned issues, and thay may well be not that simple, here but im starting to think that an AIL may not be all that difficult to achieve

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

Linfield, officially, are NOT up for an A-IL.

Apologies, if already been posted.

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Correct. The Linfield Chairman has denied being involved in any talks and I was at a meeting recently where he stated he was against it.

What level of success would we need to achieve in Europe to be give another UEFA place?

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Originally Posted by ConorE

What level of success would we need to achieve in Europe to be give another UEFA place?

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To make up another 20 positions in the co-efficent thing! good group stage should do the trick!!:o

i think northern clubs will have no option but to beg to join a sucessful southern league. There will be far more money down south, better facilites and bigger crowds and teams who can actually make group stages of the UEFA CUP / C.L.

Who would want to play in a nightmare northern ireland back water anyway

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

i think northern clubs will have no option but to beg to join a sucessful southern league. There will be far more money down south, better facilites and bigger crowds and teams who can actually make group stages of the UEFA CUP / C.L.

Who would want to play in a nightmare northern ireland back water anyway

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Posts like this are totally unhelpful. It seems to be that both leagues need each other. The facilities in both leagues I would say leave a lot to be desired with Windsor and Mourneview a match for any EL stadium. In recent years the EL grounds that I have been at are minimal (Derry City, Longford, Tolka and Dalymount but in the past I have been at Sligo, Dundalk, Finn Harps and Athlone Town. Tolka looks decent but some of the facilities there are awful. When we were there the toilets were a disgrace so I certainly do not think that EL league clubs can claim much superiority with facilities.

A few years ago, the big teams in Europe wnated more chances to play each other and rake in cash, but no one wanted to lose out on their existing markets....hence the revamped European Cup/Champions League system. This more or less guarantees the big teams some mini league football in the autumn and then a few more games after Xmas. Lots of tv exposure and lots of cash.

Would it surprise anyone to see the Setanta Cup extended to include a league format, while preserving the existing doemstic leagues. Include more teams and play mid-week over several months from Jan-June or whatever suits. Maybe have the league section in Autumn and play offs in Feb-March? That way, we get our AI league, we retain Eurpean spots and the clubs get more cash.

Should please everyone and that's what I expect to see happening.

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Originally Posted by liamon

A few years ago, the big teams in Europe wnated more chances to play each other and rake in cash, but no one wanted to lose out on their existing markets....hence the revamped European Cup/Champions League system. This more or less guarantees the big teams some mini league football in the autumn and then a few more games after Xmas. Lots of tv exposure and lots of cash.

Would it surprise anyone to see the Setanta Cup extended to include a league format, while preserving the existing doemstic leagues. Include more teams and play mid-week over several months from Jan-June or whatever suits. Maybe have the league section in Autumn and play offs in Feb-March? That way, we get our AI league, we retain Eurpean spots and the clubs get more cash.

Should please everyone and that's what I expect to see happening.

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I would agree that this would probably be the next step and something that I would expect to happen in the next couple of years.

what you on about bohsfan ? Give it a few years and you would have no facilites if it werent for the government money and shels offering a ground share with you lot. The amount of money you were spending on players wages and yet couldnt afford it.

By right Shels should move to Abbotstown or Lissadel since the Metro will be operating there in the next 6 years. That gives us enough time to save up , get planning permission, build the stadium and move in. We could concentrate on growing our fan base there liek what the Shams are doing..

thats off topic though. The fact of the matter is that the northern irish teams are vastly inferior both technically and physically to the EL sides. Everyone knows Shels gave Linfield the Setanta Cup last year out of good will. It was a sop to the northerns to get them intrested.

If any of those clubs like Glentoran, Linfield etc joined the EL they would be mid table at best and probably fighting relegation

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

Everyone knows Shels gave Linfield the Setanta Cup last year out of good will. It was a sop to the northerns to get them intrested.

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I look forward to seeing if anyone bites for you on this one.... :D

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Originally Posted by thejoyylrodger

If any of those clubs like Glentoran, Linfield etc joined the EL they would be mid table at best and probably fighting relegation

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I'm happy to take a bite on this one myself. If any of the 'big' clubs in the south should be worried about their future in an all-island league, it's Shels !

Linfield and Glens have very big active, passive and potential fan bases. You can hardly scrape 1,800 for your first home game of the new season against the Northern Irish Champions, ffs !

Once playing in a league with greater competition and more money available, the inherent strengths of teams like Linfield and Glentoran will propel them to the fore. The inherent weaknesses of teams like Shels (namely a low fanbase) will see them pushed down the pecking order by the bigger clubs...

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

If any of the 'big' clubs in the south should be worried about their future in an all-island league, it's Shels !

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But the Bohs merger will be nearly complete soon so that should raise the attendance a bit though yeah !?! ;)

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

i think northern clubs will have no option but to beg to join a sucessful southern league. There will be far more money down south, better facilites and bigger crowds and teams who can actually make group stages of the UEFA CUP / C.L.

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rodger, there are two clubs in the "northern backwater" with away followings EVERY EL club chairman / treasurer would happily embrace.

:)

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

If any of those clubs like Glentoran, Linfield etc joined the EL they would be mid table at best and probably fighting relegation

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Yeah, possibly (in our case, at the mo, definitely).

But only for a few seasons at best.

After that, order restored;)