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Anybody born in Northern Ireland or with family from NI has always had the right to get an Irish passport. The GFA copperfastened that.Quote:
Originally Posted by colster
We could always have picked anybody born in NI but there appears to have beena gentleman's agreement between the 2 football associations. We did pick Alan Kernaghan after NI turned him down but subsequently it is clear that there is no such agreement now.
This is never going to happen. The vast amount of people who go to Windsor park and support Northern Ireland consider themselves British. Most nationalists up the North support the Republic.
Northern Ireland fans use their soccer team to give themselves some identity, an identity which they struggle to assign themselves in everyday life.
Look at the flags at Windsor park-Union Jack, english flag, northern ireland flag (red hand), english flag with red hand and union jack in top corner, IFA flags etc-they dont know what to bring, but supporting NI is something obviously special to these people.
I would like to see a united Ireland team the same way as I would like to see a united Ireland-cant see one happening without the other.
As I say. Mate have been to Windsor Park for ten years supporting NI and can honestly say that the only time Ive seen an England flag is when England play. We are Northern Irish and happy with that that why most carry the NI flag. Very little UJ at the match either these days but certainly no england flags, I have seen England flags at windsor for Linfield games if thats when you saw them at WP..
i dunno, plenty of UJ's and those NI flags with the UJ in the top left corner (what is that by the way?) are put behind goals at both ends. Also English flag with crown in the top left corner.
while were talking-is there a type of person that brings a UJ flag as opposed to a NI flag?
Do you consider yourself British, Northern Irish, or Irish? I.e if someone asked you your nationality what would you say
I myself have only ever brought a NI flag to Windsor park along with the IFA green flag, As for others many bring their local club supporters flags such as Linfield, Glenavon etc and this might explain the english flag present as I know Linfield have one in their crest etc.
As for me I see myself as Northern Irish, but afraid that some peoples dont like to see this term used and would rather force you into a british or Irish box as its much easier then to label someone. With me this is not going to happen. If I could get an NI passport tomorrow I would or when filling in options if NI was on the sheet thats what I would tick but just doesnt happen very often Im afraid.
And the award for most idiotic post of the month goes to.... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
What exactly would an all-island team have to do with distancing ourselves or otherwise from the English ? In fact - what exactly would an all-island team have to do with the English FULL-STOP ??
Did Derry City joining the LOI usher in a whole-new era of closeness between the plucky Irish and the dastardly Sasana ?
So the jist of your arguement for not having a joint all-island team is that the odd English journalist might try to claim us as 'their own' on the infrequent occassions that a Britiash team doesn't qualify for a major tournament and we do. Shock horror - we should declare war immediately ! What a staggeringly ridiculous reason for doing anything....
As requested already - drop the anti-English obsession. Ireland needs to measure itself on its own terms - not in relation to the English. Only then will we have matured as a nation.....
Dassa> thats pretty interesting alright. Would you say there are many NI fans who are of that opinion? and are more people becoming that minded now in the north. There seems to be less UJs than during the 90s for example-but when I see a UJ in Windsor Park I just think-why? I mean you dont even see them at home England games.
I suspect its the hardcore orangeman that would bring a UJ to a NI match. Could be wrong of course :)
YI - it's deeply worrying how horribly wrong you've got all of this. Not only is the basis of your arguement flawed, it's actually the complete opposite of the reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
You're asserting that the fact that NI is part of the UK means that people across the world are confused as to the status of the Republic of Ireland. That is possibly one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this site. Ever...
The reality is the EXACT OPPOSITE, as you should be well familiar with from living in England. Rather than Irish people being considered British because a small chunk of our country is part of the UK - the reality is that it is the 'identity' of Northern Irish people that is of a confused status, due to the presence of an independent Republic ! When people in London hear my accent, they describe me as 'Irish'. Not Northern Irish, and certainly not British - but IRISH. It was the same when I lived in places like New York, Florida and Holland. It is the same for my Northern Irish protestant friends. It's only within the identity-conscious confines of the political divide in Ireland that people worry about differentiating between the 2 - the rest of the world views the whole population of the island of Ireland , north and south, catholic and protestant, as IRISH. Therefore - the reality is that it is the 'identity' of Northern Irish people that is of a confused status, due to the presence of an independent Republic, and NOT vice-versa.
I can only guess that you're not particularly well travelled if you have the nerve to suggest that people overseas think that the Republic is part of Britain because only 20% of the island of Ireland is in the UK. Would you care to clarify who exactly is it that has these beliefs ? And don't give us the aul 'I once met someone on holiday somewhere who thought that way', as if that would be any form of conclusive proof. As an aside - significant chunks of the world know absolutely feck-all about Ireland (e.g. large parts of Asia), and what little they do know in places like Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia etc often comes purely and solely from football. Which makes your point even more absurd.
When you're stuck in a hole Young Irish, (or should that be Young British ? I'm confused as to what to call you - given British ownership of the 6 counties...) stop digging...
According to the daily Mirror up here. John Dallat MLA has jumped on the AI bandwagon saying we should quit using football for sectarianism up north and create an AI team that everyone can get behind. He doesnt seem to realise that if AI team happens no NI fans I know will support it and the team will become even more one sisded in the community than the NI team is supposed to be now. Hate people who no matter what the IFA do will try to tar it with the old cliche's nice one John.
As for whether I am the norm in terms of NI fans up here I cant be sure but surely if both sides stop allowing them to be boxed into 1 or the other nationality and become proud in the small 6 counties that we share, which has many things to be proud of in, then things not just for sport can move on in this country.
dcfcSteve have you ever been outside your house in London? Possibly not considering this post.
Here's a tip, walk outside and ask 100 English people walking along the street if an Irish from Dublin is also British. A significant proportion of them will say yes. If they don't know that Ireland isn't part of Britain then isn't that a sign a lot of other, non-British people won't know also?
I dunno what your argument regarding people knowing your Irish is all about. I never stated anything otherwise. A large percentage of those people who you claimed said you were Irish will also think you are British and that's my point. Any statement otherwise is bulls**t.
You're an idiot, you missed the point and went off on some silly tangent to try to impress people with how well travelled you are. I've been working abroad on four different continents in 7 countries for 10 years and a general assumption by many people is that all Irish people are also British. This is a fact. They don't distinguish between North and South. The same way as Scottish, Welsh and English people are also considered British. Does this matter to you? Perhaps it does, perhaps it isn't worth a boll**.
Anyway I'm done on the matter as it gets tiresome. If you want a unified Irish team that's fine, I don't and if your ramblings in your posts are anything to go by then I don't at the moment feel I'm on the wrong side of the intellectual superiors. Anyway I'm tired replying to muppets who read an ancient post and reply, then realise there was more up to date posts and write another reply. It gets time consuming.
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Originally Posted by youngirish
Yes It's time you ducked out. IMO you haven't made one logical or sound contribution to the debate. You resort to personal abuse when confronted with logical or sound argument.
Do you honestly believe that we should stop doing something because of what other nations perceive our nationality to be. What demonstrative effect does that perception have on us as a nation?
YI your -how shall I put it -hypersensetivity to the level of knowledge expressed by people overseas relating to the constitutional and administrative arrangements on this little island and it's not much bigger neighbour is, in equal measure, quaint, hilarious and fcukin' baffling.
The old USSR had a population of nearly 300,000,000. Now ...could you tell from a brief converstion with someone from that region if they were Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian...? Could you tell where one country ended and the next began?
I'm just making a point that beyond fleeting curiosity -they no more give a fcuk about your administrative arrangments than you do about theirs. m-kay?
YoungBritish - sorry, I keep getting the British and Irish mixed up !! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
You are laughably delusional. As everyone who has responded to you has also pointed out.
I would happily walk out my door and ask 100 people passing if they thought someone from Dublin was British or Irish, as beyond a small number expecting that they were being tricked I'm confident the majority would say 'Irish'.
The beautiful irony is that you yourself appear clueless on this issue. Ireland has NEVER been part of Britain. There's a reason why an 'and' appears in the legal title 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland'
A wee tip for you YI - when everyone you speak to about something tells you you're wrong, sometimes you are.....
sure reform the old union ... f*ck polital borders, different nationalities etc ... lets team up with England, Scotland and Wales ... we'd have a better chance of winning the world cup ;)
what a load of nonsense. Giles & Best wishes are purely based on the idea that we'd have a better team if we joined together. Giles has said these words exactly.
neither have (had) any idea about the practical issues involved. no idea about the fans (in particular the fans who supporter northern ireland - no matter what your opinions of the them are), the associations, the politic issues and fifa's stance on all this.
is it though steve, i work in a multinational company with many many "foreginers" on a daily basis, and only as recently as last week one person asked me where i lived. so i brought them over to the pc ( as i do with many and put up the map of ireland, so they can get a clear understanding of the geographics of IRELAND) and put up a picture and said here, then his next question was:Quote:
YI - it's deeply worrying how horribly wrong you've got all of this. Not only is the basis of your arguement flawed, it's actually the complete opposite of the reality
....You're asserting that the fact that NI is part of the UK means that people across the world are confused as to the status of the Republic of Ireland. That is possibly one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this site. Ever...
"is that the part of the united kingdon"
i didnt laugh, i didnt get annoyed, he is a nice guy, i was more upset than anything else. i have found this with many many people, a lot of europeans even!!!! this same lad has been over in the uk for a few years too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
Totally Agree
The vast majority of unionists in the north would be adversly objective to any form of unity on this Island be it geographically politically or through Sport
and I think its fair to say that the vast majority of Nortern Ireland fans are unionists. so I dont think it would happen in under the present political dynamic and in reality I think the only way we'll ever see a united Irish team
is if we some day see a united Ireland
IMO anyother view on this is unrealistic wishfull thinking
Quote:
That is possibly one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on this site. Ever...
oh the irony, the irony, possibly one of the worst as i disproved yours ;)
Here I can't help it yous are still just posting sh**e. The only one that seems to have grasped the gist of the argument so far is Colster and he took about 20 posts to cop it.
Lionel Ritchie you're lucky you're a talented songwriter because again your slating my argument which is fair enough but then trying to justify the slating of it with some of the most insane drivel I've read in a long time. I wasn't asking anyone to guess my accent but if someone did say to me they were from Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia etc I wouldn't for one still refer to them as Soviets or consider them to still be ruled by the USSR or Russia. Maybe you would and you think that's ok which would explain a lot. Anyway those countries haven't been part of the USSR in slightly over a decade while we haven't been ruled by Britain in over eight decades. Slight (enormous) difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
As for dcfcSteve I still don't know what you're talking about. Of course if you ask is someone from Dublin either Irish or British the majority will say Irish. You are only offering them one option. They would also say a person from Cardiff was Welsh if offered the same choice. My point was if they think Irish people are also British. You obviously still haven't quite grasped basic logic yet but are arguing against the logic of my postings.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I also see you got out your history book and yes in the strictest sense of the terms Ireland wasn't considered part of Britain but part of the UK. I'm sure the foreign people I’m referring to would know this anyway as they probably have a copy of the Act of Union from 1801 hanging in their bedrooms. Also I'm sure there are many people up North who'd disagree with your assessment and consider themselves British as they are entitled to do. Are they wrong?
We are gone way off the football.
Paul_o_Shea thanks for the reality check. These people obviously haven’t mixed with any foreigners or alternatively don’t care if they are considered British abroad. I for one don’t like to be considered British but I have no problems with people who don’t mind as is Colster’s argument which is fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassa
Now there is no need to blatently lie about it :eek:
a vast amount of UJ are clearly visible at windsor for all NI games
You forget that we have BBC NI down and many of us watch the north's games as they are usually on before ours
So what? What does it have to do with an All Island team? I've had the same experience. We're a small island. People are naturally going to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I think it would be a good thing to have an All Island team but I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. There are many other more significant stumbling blocks than the perception of our nationality by foreigners.
Anyone who is worried about being perceived as British should get a life. How long does it take to correct someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
I know you have BBC down south and Im not a liar. I never said there werent any UJ's present at NI games I said their was little. By this I meant in comparison to the amount of NI flags. I would also like to know what you would call a vast amount in a crowd of 14,000 10,11. Dont dare say i was blatently lieing. heres a link to a photo of the KOp which would be were all the supporters clubs would sit. This was a the Poland game kindly point out all these vast amounts of UJ's.
http://photobucket.com/albums/y140/B...t=DSCN0125.jpg
I grasped it but I still don't understand the logic of it. Again I ask what effect does the perception of our nationality as British have on us?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
You started it.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
I mind being considered British and yes I have travelled, met and worked with people who mistakenly thought Ireland was part of Britain/UK. I'm proud of being Irish. I just don't see how the perceptions of being British which happens anyway and probably always will has on whether we have an All Island team or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
POS - all you've exemplified above is the understandable lack of knowledge the world has about Ireland full-stop. Nothing you've said supports this misguided notion YI is peddling that the world is so caught-up with Ireland's identity issue that everyone thinks the Irish are really British - and that therefore having a single football team for the island of Ireland would somehow make Ireland closer to the English and further increase this misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That guy didn't say "Oh - you're from Ireland - you must be British", as YoungIrish is asserting the vast majority of people would do. Instead he was one of the many people I mentioned earlier who's reaction would simply be 'Where/what the feck is Ireland...?'. It was only when you showed him how close we are to Britain that you prompted an 'is that part of the UK comment'. Does he go round thinking you're British now that he knows you're Irish ?
Err - well no actuallly. :confused: If you ask someone a question with TWO possible responses ('Irish' or 'British') you are offering them TWO options. Not one. So your point is.... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
As a number of other posters have mentioned, there appears to be very little logic to your arguement. All you keep doing is asserting your view that everyone thinks that Irish people are really British, and that as a result having a single football team for the island of Ireland would only serve to draw us closer to the English, as apparently everyone thinks we're all British anyway ! You've given no justification for why you believe this tangled hypotheses to be the case, and my experience of living, working and travelling to numerous places around the world strongly counteracts what you're saying. No doubt you'll now accuse me of trying to show off how well travelled I am (whilst at the same time talking yourself up as a latter-day Phileas Fogg with your "these people have obviosuly never met any foreigners.." remarks), rather than address the core point I'm making, but that's usually the response of someone who's struggling in an arguement.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Why if you told someone you were one nationality, would they then assume you're another ? In reality this only happens with a miniscule number of nations who have multiple nationalities (in particular, the poor Welsh seem to get this a lot - probably becuae their distinct culture/history is little known outside of Britain). Do you honestly think the French, Spanish, Americans, Australians etc have no idea idea that the 'British' and 'Irish' are separate people with separate cultural and political identities ? Do you think the other 24 member nations of the EU honestly believe that Ireland isn't really a country or poeple, and that were'll all really British ? Do you honestly and truely 100% believe this to be the case ?:eek: If so, then we'll just have to agree to disagree...
Regardless - I've yet to see anyone on here supporting your belief that a single team on the island of Ireland would make even more people think the Irish were really British.
Not at all - you can be 'British' without being from 'Britain' (e.g. citizenship given to natives of Gibraltor, Falkland Islands, Northern Ireland etc). And anyways - I thought all Irish were considered British by everyone anyway, so why did you even need to ask....? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by YOUNGIRISH
nothing at all. nothing at all, was just making a point.Quote:
So what? What does it have to do with an All Island team? I've had the same experience. We're a small island. People are naturally going to ask.
dcfcsteve, it has to do with how you were saying ireland is perceived globally!!!! im just stating examples/facts which always finishes arguments, that to the outside world they dont have a fooken clue about hte republic/northern ireland and dont knokw which/any/both are "part of uk" as i have so often been asked. this is what youngirisih was refering too, which you blatantly cut him down and said his view was totally wrong, his view IS what "foregin" people think.
no no no no no, he was blissfully unaware, that was my point, he didnt know whether any/all/both ROI and NI were part of the uk, infering that even if i was i was still part of the uk/britain, therefore i might have well been british in his eyes.Quote:
It was only when you showed him how close we are to Britain that you prompted an 'is that part of the UK comment'.
anyhow im all for a united ireland and a united ireland team, i was just trying to let you and others see where he was coming from. if someone has a perception of a country about ireland like the above, then they dont know the difference between the nationality and would lump us all the same.
I do believe a very sizable proportion of people in many of those countries think that Irish people are also British as does Paul_OShea judging from his posts. If you disagree that's fine but you claimed in one of your earlier posts that this was one of the most idiotic things you've read on the forum. I don't agree. Possibly I might be wrong but those are my experiences dealing with foreign people (many of whom are British). I think I made a fair point. I'd like to see some other people's opinions on the matter rather than the 3 who keep making a nonsense of the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Consequently I believe if we unify our teams and there is no longer a separate Rep of Ireland team and a Northern Ireland team this will confuse the issue even more and make it harder for certain (admittedly ignorant) foreigners to distinguish between Northern and Southern Ireland as there is no longer the question of why there’s a Northern and Republic team. As was said earlier many people’s knowledge of Ireland stems from these teams. How the reverse and how unifying the teams could decrease the misunderstanding that Irish people are British is what I fail to understand. A lot of foreign people’s understanding of Ireland comes mainly from the British media and the problems in the past in the North. Many don’t recognise the difference between this part of Ireland and the Republic.
Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm not. Perhaps no one cares but as I've said before it annoys me when foreign people refer to me as British which has happened numerous times before in the past. I’m surprised if you don’t care though. Would it not annoy you if someone referred to you as French because I’m no more British than French, German, Italian, Estonian or any other nationality. As a nation and as we continue to integrate into Europe we start to share more in common with the French and Germans than we do with the English or British who are generally more inward looking and less progressive (in a European sense) than we are.
I really dunno whether to get you a shovel or take the one you have off of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Do you worry as much about people confusing Ireland with Iceland?
There's only one letter in the difference and it apparently cropped up as a stumbling block some years ago in a Bord Failte or Enterprise Ireland survey. Maybe we should change the name of the country to something more distinctive? Maybe we should get a corporate sponsor to help us market the new brand ...like ...Pepsi presents something more distinctive?
...well now I shouldn't boast and a gentleman should never say but I bumped into this blonde busty lass once upon a long ago -she was from Iceland ...or was it Ireland??:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
I still don't understand why it bothers you what people ignorant of the situation think. Honestly, why do you give a toss?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
As a youngster, I had the privilege of spending a few summers in the company of a group of female Spanish students. Except that they weren't Spanish, they were from the outskirts of Barcelona. They weren't loud or obnoxious about it, they were simply Catalan and not Spanish. As a 15 year old, I hadn't a clue about the history between the two and was more concerned with less honourable intentions.;) What some muppet of an Irish 15 year old knew or didn't know about the internal cultures of Spain surely had absolutely no relevance to the issue itself? (Believe me, I now know and appreciate the difference between a Catalan and a Spaniard!)
At the risk of getting too political, does that mean that the concept of a united Ireland should be forgotten about because ignorant Brits, French, Spanish, Germans or Italians don't know the difference? A political movement going back hundreds of years with plenty of support should rely upon the notions of some equally idiotic 15 year old in France? If that's too political, an All Ireland football team, let's say it were to get loads of support, should be forgotten about for the sake of what an ignorant foreigner thinks (who probably has no reason to know any better)?
Or maybe I'm an idiot like dcfcsteve who also disagreed with you?
Lionel Ritchie wasn't asking you if you'd just refer to anyone sounding Eastern European as a Soviet or a Russian, he was asking you would you know the touchy political and cultural differences between Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia casually? It certainly wasn't the most insane drivel I've read in a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
The last time we had this debate (6 months ago or more I think) I was firmly of the view that I did not want a 32 county team. Not because they don't have anything to offer (Taylor, Davis and a few others are easily good enough & their left back, Plymouth's Capaldi, had a blinder in Cardiff, much better than any left-back performance I've seen from one of ours in a long while) but for other reasons.
One of the things I have enjoyed most about following the Republic of Ireland team is the unity of purpose we have shared over the years. There is, or at least was, a bond between all the fans, and between the fans & the players.
I can relate to our "homegrown" players because I know where they're from & I've played on a lot of the same pitches. I can relate to the "anglos" because I was born in the UK myself and my own children will be brought up in the UK. I'm not sure if I ever could relate to the Northern Ireland players though. I'm only a light-green nationalist but I just don't feel that unionist orientated footballers would be representing "me" which is what I feel about the Republic's team, and I think unionist Northern Ireland fans would prefer to keep their own team, which I understand. Nationalist fans can make their choice as it is.
However, notwithstanding the above, certain connections have been broken that have diminished the joy of following Ireland:
I don't think the players give a **** anymore. Certainly not as much as they used to. Maybe this was just a reaction to Kerr's management style though.
Certain aspects of the support annoy me. Booing Man United players because you're a Liverpool fan, or vice versa, p1sses me off. I didn't condone the Rangers booing as I thought it was just a bit of fun, nothing malicious or sectarian, although many made it out to be worse than it was. Once it was incorrectly perceived as being sectarian I was glad it was stopped though - our reputation for fairness is something I take pride in. But could we trust our own fans to spare players like Ivan Sproule, who'd be representing us, the full treatment?
In general, I don't think many of the newer fans appreciate the essence of following our team. I even heard some young lads singing "Irish till I Die" recently, evoking an association with the English Far Right, though probably unwittingly.
The antipathy from certain eL fans towards those of us whose first love is the national team is divisive.
So maybe all I used to enjoy most about following Ireland is gone, never to return as it was. As with all things, it evolves and it's up to me to accept the new reality. And they're obviously not deal-breaking complaints anyway.
But how can we possibly expect a sense of unity with our Northern counterparts when we were so bitterly divided ourselves over Roy Keane, over booing Rangers players, over whether living in Cork is better than in Dublin, and so on. Factions would probably develop within the team too. The team needs more unity at the moment, not less.
Maybe unification would drive out the worst elements of both support though, leaving only those who are happy to follow their country through thick and thin. Who knows? But although I fully agree with Donal81 that foreigners' ignorance should not be a concern of ours, I think our country's unique past & unique divisions create a unique problem which I'd rather not add to my list of gripes about following Ireland these days.
stuts i agree with a lot of what you are saying, but that is a total contradiction in those two lines, booing occurs because your a celtic fan. simple as.Quote:
Certain aspects of the support annoy me. Booing Man United players because you're a Liverpool fan, or vice versa, p1sses me off. I didn't condone the Rangers booing as I thought it was just a bit of fun, nothing malicious or sectarian, although many made it out to be worse than it was.
Agree with Paul on that last point.
Also
...and a complete nightmare against England at Old Tatters. Gently tee'd up the ball for Lampard to bury Englands first while attempting to play a square ball on the edge of his own box with four white jerseys around him.Quote:
Plymouths Capaldi, had a blinder in Cardiff,
would players of the unionist tradidion of northern ireland be inspired to give their all for such a side anyway? would they even play for it? i dont know the religions of the players of the north nor do i reallty want to but i read a piece recently with Davis of villa saying he grew up as a huge rangers fan, would you get the best from a guy of that mindset in an all-ireland set-up?
Not that I think it'll happen any time soon, but I think that if players from a Unionist background thought that they were playing for an Ireland team that represented all people on the island, as opposed to playing for a team that was really just representing catholic nationalist Ireland, then they would give it their all. I don't doubt that Ulster unionists on the rugby team give anything other than their best for the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
A good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
Do Catholic/Nationalist players in the Northern Ireland squad also not give their all for the team ? Martin O'Neill and Gerry Armstrong might disagree with you if you said no...