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no I think he took over from them on his own a few years later....85? 86?..(i only glanced thru the article) I have a deffinite memory of it being debated on the saint & greavsie. I think they came to the conclusion that it was a funny old game.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
[QUOTE=klein4]
ask any ireland fans would they prefer sturrock to Keane as he has more coaching qualifications and see what the response would be.
This Ireland fan would say Sturrock.
In fact, ABK.
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
What are peoples views on Roy Keane to be the next manager
Sign him up as what? Manager?Quote:
Originally Posted by sligoman
- No more friendlies cause I dont do friendlies
- I didnt pick Duff in case he gets injured and cant play for his club on Saturday
- I dont mind sitting in the back of the plane so that John O'Shea can have a first class seat
- When Robboe Keane comes into a players meeting and f**ks and blinds at me calling me a Cork cnut who only payed for Ireland when I felt like it, I will say 'Thanks Robbie, I value your opinion'
Yeah right, manage a team not until he can manage himself:mad: :mad:
Firstly I don't use my own coaching experience, I do however use my knowledge of the coaching system to try to understand what is required for someone to reach the top international manager level. you seem to think well it's roy, he's great, he was captain, he'll be brilliant....it's ridicuolous and two pages of posts have yet to give a valid argument as to why he's better than anything else out there. I operate on the lowest level of the coaching scale but I can appreciate the time and effort these top coaches put into these courses and qualifications. I don't think they should then be passed by on jobs by someone who might knows a lot becuase he was a captain in ENgland.....as I said if it's all about being a great player and captain, give the job to Bryan Robson - at least he's experienced and qualified or better still give it to Paddy Vieira, his experience of winning a world cup and european championship might prove vital for us! laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
Again we come from different view points. It;'s all about records and results for you and not coaching ability. How many times have you seen good coaches fail in one position and do an excellent job in another. Are you honestly telling me that Roy Keane is more suitable for this position with zero experience than any of the expereinced managers mentioned....Venables, Hiddink, O'Neill, George Graham even kevin keegan. you can slag off records of people all you want but it doesn't change the fact they are more qualified and have more experience for the job and are more than capable of doing a good job with our limited resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
I don't know what you are trying to suggest here but whatever it is, it's petty and irrelvent. I stated that I hope the FAi don't try to make a majority of the fans happy by appointing a player with no experience into our managerial position just because he's Irish and that people will feel good about it. We need to make the right appointment, not one for the media and glory hunters to have a field day on. Fu*k this one up and we will be looking at half empty stadiums shortly.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
So you want our next international manager to neglect anyone currently below the international level because they'll prove themselves with their club - u just want him to work with the team he has and not look to the future?? You don't want him to be involved with our youth international teams and try to have the same tactical setup right through our youth development system and make transition from youth to international level easier. It's not his responsibilty, great!! Enough said.....it's all about winning, records, captains and the senior team...shag the rest! And I'm blinkered.....!!!!!!!!! I'm done on this one, consider me out of the topic !:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by klein4
Sheesh, Karlos is administering an utter beating on Klein4. It's almost difficult to read.
No. I don't think that Keane is either ready or willing to go into international management as of yet. People are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 here. Him leaving Man Yoo is just coincidental, no need to get excited. The only place Roy is off to is a club within reasonable proximity to his home. Celtic looks most likely and he has in the past expressed a desire to wind up his career there.
I am a United fan but I am against giving the Ireland job to someone with no experience. In my own opinion if they are to do that then why sack Brian Kerr? They'll be replacing a manager with no or limited experience for another. The next manager will be critical in turning our fortunes around and its too big a risk. We need a proven track record for this one.
I do think that the FAI are in a bit of a fix at present though. Gus Hiddink would have been my own choice for the job but that door has now been shut with the Soceroos qualification. The FAI surely had him shortlisted and sadly it looks like its going to go to a third or fourth choice candidate, if even that.
Too risky IMO, he's a complete unknown in terms of coach. Also noone knows if he wants to play on for another few years (if so then I dont think him being manager is realistic), or if he is interested in being the coach. FAI should see if he wants some involvement in our youth team process or something, then we can see how he does at man-management.
Still think the best candidate is MON, if he becomes coach I can't see us not getting to Euro 2008, he is world class and the FAI should break the bank for him and let him work the hours he wants.
I still don't see how Hiddink is no longer available. He'll almost certainly not be involved with Australia come the end of June. Someone on this forum said he's not staying at PSV beyond next year either. Is that true?
I see no reason why negotiations with Hiddink couldn't begin now or in the new year.
Also, maybe I'm being naive, but if you scrutinise O'Neill's quotes he simply said he's not available for the foreseeable future. O'Neill is smart enough to know how vague that is.
On Keane, I've mixed views. My first instinct is that he'd just be too big a risk right now because of his volatile temperament which could cause clashes with his employers, his players & the media. But maybe if he was assisted by a trusted calming influence like Denis Irwin, who knows?
One of the key failings that the FAI identified in Kerr - the inability to see what changes are required during the course of a game - is not guaranteed to be solved by appointing Keane. It could be that his experience as a player gives him this ability. I honestly don't know how well Keane can read a game from the dugout. None of us does yet.
I think Keane himself admits he's got a way to go to get to the level of coaching skill required.
I think a partial return to the irreverend attitude towards the opposition of Jack's & Mick's tenors is required to get the Irish competitive again. Recapturing team spirit is important. Could Keane promote this? I've no doubt Keane would be as meticulous as Kerr on the logistical side, one of Kerr's positive features.
I'd like to think an experienced coach like Hiddink or O'Neill, or A.N. Other will be appointed with people like Keane, Staunton etc. being in the frame next time around. You don't get the benefit of a honeymoon period in international football. 2 bad competitive results and that's it for another campaign.
I fear Delaney will opt for a well known but not necesarily talented candidate which is why a professional search firm could help - they might, just might, identify an outlier none of us would have considered. Like Celtic did with Janssen for example.
PS: any chance Keane's next move would be to Cork City, helping them towards the Champs League? Think of what it'd do to the profile of our domestic league.
I watched the second half in my local in NW London last night with a naff Race Night being blasted out on the big screen & PA. It was like a scene from Phoenix Nights! Well done City on their achievements on & off the pitch. Turners Cross last night was everything an eL atmosphere should be like. Unlucky Derry. Well done for making the league so interesting from afar.
Its not about when he took over at Ajax its about that you wrote that he was hired only because of his big name.Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
if you read the article, Cruyff at the age of 28 was hired as a technical advisor to Ajax first team, he famously demonstrated his touchline leadership skills on that fateful day at Twente. He virtually took control over anything to do with tactics from then on.
By the time he retired from playing 1985 he had already demonstrated that he was a coach extraordinaire. Then you wrote that he was hired as a coach in 1985 because of his big name. I say the evidence points to that Cruyff had already demonstrated his ability in all the key areas to do with team managership his football acumen was without question.
Have they not fallen out :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'd say that Keane has a year or two left at centre back. He feeds off/craves the supporters adulation.
Keane and Staunton both good managerial prospects but would I let them start off with the national team? I would hate to hear in the post match interview.
"its a different game from the touchline"
"its gonna take a while for me to know how to sort this mess out"
Why would Roy even consider taking the job?
yes utter beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
I am a lone nut in thinking that keane is a more significant footballing figure than legends stapleton, staunton and macateer.
and I also must be a sham for not seeing some obscure Ajax game from back in the day as a "fateful day":D
as usual the little clique shouts anyone down who doesnt agree with them.
some people let their anti keane bias colour everything.....
I read somwhere that Saipan was like our Princess Di moment. As we all must look back like Niall Quinn and wonder did we all go mad over nuthin????
People who still think saipan is some major thing in their lives need to get out more.
but then when they do a coaching course and start having delusions about themselves what would you expect.....:rolleyes:
Picture this: Keane gets job, we make the play-offs for the Euros, Keane is unhappy with the FAI's travel plans, so he.... walks out, leaving us managerless for the playoffs.
Of course, that could never happen, Keane walking out on someone when he doesn't get what he wants....
again you can't help but make a personal attack, petty in the extreme. :mad: Argue your point (if you can find a valid one!)Quote:
Originally Posted by klein4
This little clique of one (i.e me!) doesn't take kindly to personal remarks......attack my post all day long if you want but grow up along the way. :mad:
He didn't walk out on Ireland. Mick's own press statement: "I've sent him home" I still don't understand which part of this sentence people have trouble understanding.Quote:
Of course, that could never happen, Keane walking out on someone when he doesn't get what he wants....
The BBC were at it today as well, claiming Roy walked out. Incredibly, they even played a bit of Mick's press conference but cut out the bit where he says he sent him home because it didn't suit their world view.
Great discussion lads I am glad I posted up my question now. It has largely been kept away from personal or club comments which has to be good for the forum. I think its healthy when people can slaughter a post like Karlos has but not be dragged down to personal comments. I don't agree with every thing you say but at least it comes from a position of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
Wouldn't happen if he was arranging the travel plans though.
He walked out first. Was persuaded to come back, and then was sent home after making his position untenable. When you remember that he walked out first, it does kind of make it seem like he didn't want to be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
And, didn't he just walk out on Utd?
I honestly hate Keane the footballer.This doesnt mean that I dont resect him though.
He speaks his mind is is not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.
This characteristic is what the next Ireland manager needs.Someone who can identify if a player isn't pulling his weight or who simply isn't up to the standard,and tell them where to go.
Simply put Give Keane the job and things will change for the better.
That argument is so simplistic. It's as if every problem is solved by someone verbally assulting the person who isn't performing. In life I have found that encouragement succeeds far better than criticism. And we've seen how well Keane reacts to criticism - when Mick suggested to him he didn't do friendlies and avoided the Iran play off game, he almost lost his mind and wasn't one of the whole criticisms of the way Mick handled things was that he criticised Keane in front of the players. But it's ok for Keane to criticise his team mates on Man U TV. Hypocrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stars
He doesn't deserve to be the Irish manager because (a) he's not qualified, (b) he's temprementally unsuited, (c) he turned his back on playing for his country and (d) he probably wouldn't want the job anyway.
its simplistic because its that easy.for too long now the same gobshiners have been playing for Ireland,getting by with the fact that they play in england rather than ability or passion.Keane would clear out the squad,with the exception of 5 or six players,and the players would know that if they didn't pull their weight they would be out.Obviously qualifications are important but anyone can get coaching badges.
Final point on this (i know I said I'm done!!) but this statement isn't totoally true. Anyone could get a basic coaching course (and please do and don't stop there! ) but at the level we are talking about it's a different ball game (excuse the pun!)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stars
not anyone can get the required coaching qualifications to become an international manager. you must have either achieved a certain level on previous coaching licences (which would include coaching experience) to progress or have had experience in professional football plus passed the less stringent prequalification courses. This is the point that people are missing, previous playing experience IS taken into consideration in the licencing system and exemptions are given from certain aspects of the qualification course that leads to the pro licence.
it takes time, it must be assessed by the issueing body usually over a period of 6 months to a year.......the failure rate on these courses is exceptionally high...and that goes from the UEFA B licence right up to the pro licence. It's valued as it takes commitment, time and effort to achieve - just like a degree would be accepted as a benchmark standard in business etc. Not everyone
with the qualification is a successful coach but you can guarantee that they will know more about the coaching aspects of the game technicaly and tactically than someone who hasn't got it. You can't pass it without knowing this stuff. They don't hand out the professional licences to every tom, dick and harry.
As Austin Powers would say......."And I'm spent!" :)
Do the players have to have players badgers :confused: :rolleyes: :D
I doubt half of them could spell the word 'badge'.......:)
on a more serious note, in modern football almost every player nowadays graduates from a trainee contract to a pro contract, usually from a school of excellence (Claire Fontaine in France or individual club schemes for example), if they have been successful. So no physical badges but yeah they are educated with regard to playing the game and how they can improve.
Those who don't learn anything about their required job, usually don't get contracts - same should apply for coaches and does thanks to the licence system!! ;)
apologies for veering off topic slightly although it is relevant to Mr. Keane's (and Stan's!) position re: qualifications for the job. :)
Is it so that if a national federation appoint a team manager and a team coach then both of them must have the pro license before they can take up their position?
I was listening to the Premiership on RTE tonight. (much much better without Dunphy)
There was a section of chat about Keane, predictable comments from Brady "indisciplined" "public comments" and Giles ("football is a cruel game") then it meandered to where should Keane go now, Brady said he thought Keane should be given the Irish job, its not as if there are a lot of candidates for the job'. My jaw hit the floor but this comment didn't appear to register with Bill and Bill moved on to the next q to ask Giles. I assume somebody screamed into his earpiece,'Get back to Liam and ask more' finally after 5 mins. Bill returned to Liam and said but Liam you did not think he should have been allowed to play for Ireland after Saipan ??
Liam replied smilingly 'but the Fai allowed him back to play so they can allow him to manage'. Giles appeared to be in agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
not sure exactly on this one, the manager must have it or it's equivilant but not sure on the 'coach' in the international game. In the Premier League you must have pro licence to coach (as manager or assistant) of a senior team - so every coach in the league has one eg. Wenger & Rice, Ferguson & Quiroz, Mourniho & Clarke, Allerdyce & Lee etc etc.....(In Germany, you need to complete a university course!!!:eek: )
However, the stipulation by FIFA may be different for the international game - assuming that it isn't for a minute, we would have been ok anyway in the past as Evans & Hughton both hold the qualification as far as I know.
I don't think you'd need it if you were serving as a stiker coach or a goalkeeping coach - UEFA A licence would probably suffice. At academy level I believe UEFA B is the minimum in the UK.
hope this helps - open to correction on any of this - this comes from what I read.
http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/k...Id=347604.html
just located this on the uefa website - it appears that this very issue was dicussed at the UEFA Coaching Symposium in....wait for it.......Dublin, 2 months ago!
From what I can make out, international coaches currently aren't required to have the pro licence (most countries demand it so I imagine this is in reference to some coaches working with weaker nations with little or no qualifications or liklihood to improve). The member associations have asked this to be included in the international game as is in the top european leagues.
It also appears Brian Kerr and Packie spoke about this very issue at the forum. I'd be stunned if the FAI go against what the top european nations suggest should be a requirement for all international coaches - our development plan is all aimed for the future, would we really take a step back for the sake of keeping people happy?? Having only being presented with this info 2 months ago it should be fresh in the mind!! I'm nearly sure however since full licencing came into effect, this has been the a minimum requirement in the recuitment process the FAI have used to hire our coaches (our last two both have it anyway).
As it stands, Roy & Stan could possibly be appointed as coach - still doesn't make me believe they have the experience or the qualifications to do it. If the man we hire couldn't get a job in any major european league, do we want him as our manager? Easy answer for me.
http://www.uefa.com/magazine/news/Ki...Id=349551.html
Here's another good article from the uefa site on player transition into coaching with input from recent pro licence holders, Petrescu, Neilson, Calderon & Boban. As you can see coach education is an integral part of the development of these coaches. The Pro Licence fullys equips players to deal with rigors of management and I still believe we should be looking for a coach with experience and this qualification.
I think Boban sums it up best - "You can't go immediately from the shoes of a footballer player to become a good coach. You need to gain experience, to be properly educated"
although maybe he just took a course and then lost the run of himself.......happens to the best of us!!! Chill, I'm just joking!!!:) :D :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Oh get a room boys PLEASE!!!!!!!!;) ;) ;)
So he clears out 6 Premiership players and brings in what exactly ? And which 6 players in Kerr's squad are "govshiners" didn't pull their weight as opposed to just not being top class internationals and whom are you replacing them with and who says Keane will get the best out of them ? At least they played all the friendlies and didn't go off in a sulk for two years.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stars
My tuppenceworth.
To be a successful manager, its often an advantage to not have been a top player. Cruyff is one of the few genuine world class players who turned into a world class manager.
Some of the worlds best managers never kicked a ball professionally: Wenger and Mourihino for example. In an Irish context take Kerr.
You need a number of attributes to be a successful gaffer. Intelligence, motivational skills, tactical knowledge, organisational skills, ability to crisis manage and charisma helps.
Two names mentioned are Klinsmann and Hughes in the Keane (or Stan) for Ireland context.
Klinsmann is an exceptioonally intelligent man, Huges has charisma. Both played across Europe and sampled different coaching styles.
Keane has worked under one style in England. An autocratic bully.
And that is what I believe he will be as a coach.
He wont motiviate, he will bollo.ck. See the MUTV interview. He genuinly belived that was the right way to approach the issue of underperforming team mates. Would we see him on the box after an Irish game lashing his charges out of it? How many would hang around? He may be a leader on the pitch, but that style wont wash in management, especially with younger players.
His tactical knowledge and organisational skills are unknown.
Crisis manage? Do me a favour. He cant keep his gob shut.
And he doesnt strike me as an intellectual heavyweight.
This is not down to my opinion of him as a judas rat ******* who has now abandoned club and country, but as a potential manager with absoultley no relevant experience.
Roy Keane has the same managerial experience as Steve Staunton-None. But yet some of ye thought Staunton wouldn't be too bad of a choice, so what's the difference with Keane?
I cant help but think that some of ye are judging Keane on the incident in Saipan which is totally wrong in my opinion.
maybe, just maybe and im clutching at straws here but the fact that staunton is currently employed in a coaching role where as judas isnt? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by sligoman
Coaching role with Walsall ffs:rolleyes:. That's about the same level as been captain of Man U for the last number of seasons;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Roverstillidie
Not just Saipan, where was he when Kerr took over in 2003 and we still had a chance of qualifying for Euro 2004?Quote:
Originally Posted by sligoman
As regards Saipan, how could he as a manager ever expect to command the respect of players after how he behaved?
How could he as a manager expect players to turn up for friendlies after the contempt he showed over the years to managers, his team mates and fans with his attitude towards friendlies?
I posted very favorably about Staunton but like most of those who appreciate Stan the general view expressed was that he is better than some being mentioned but not just yet, let his coaching/management skills develop elsewhere first. But if I was forced at gunpoint to make a choice right now between him or Roy, I would go with Stan. I wonder would Saipan have ever happened had Brian Clough been Roy's club manager?Quote:
Originally Posted by sligoman
Hear, hear. Anyway, it's all speculation. I very much doubt that he'd be interested in the job as he can still earn 100k a week for the next two years as a player (close on 10 million) while with the Irish job he might, if he was lucky earn, 1 million in those two years. Which would any sane person go for ? Hmmmm, maybe he might go for the Irish job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Superhoops
just on the issue of freindlies.....most fans wouldnt turn up if they didnt have to cause of the block booking schemes.....how can we expect the players to be any more enthusiastic? I remember seein ireland play brazil to a half empty stadium. BRAZIL FFS! nobody wants to go down the eriksson road of 20 subs but I would prefer if freindlies were used to blood as many players as poss and emphasis was on giving them some exp rather than results.
Frank Clark, Chairman of LMA from Sporting Life.com - I was incorrect on the assistant requiring the pro licence too however....:o :)
from Sportinglife.com
The policy of managers having the qualifications is backed by the League Managers' Association, who believe it is essential for newcomers to be fully educated before taking their first job after being players.
"It's a Premier League regulation," said Frank Clark, vice-chairman of the LMA.
"You've got to go through the system which can take two to three years, it's a time-consuming process although they've tried to fast-track them before.
"The man who picks the team - not the assistant or the coach - has to have the qualification. It's not the case in the Football League, although we wish it was.
"We support it totally. It's about raising the standards which is what we are into. It's about raising the standard of the whole game and we certainly think that this does that