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What in the name of bejaysus was that?:mad:. We were total sh!te. We are gonna be completely fcuked against the Swiss if we play like that. Dunne is a muppet.:mad:. Elliot and Keane didn't get supplied with any balls all night, holy fcuk! Not a hope of us qualifying with that performance. A disgrace!:mad: I feel sorry for Cyprus tonight, they deserved all 3 points.
our only hope on wednesday is if the swiss have a few suspended and that man mr given comes to rescue again
At best that performance was dull, at worst it was a bit of a disgrace.
Although it is easy to blame the manager for when a team plays so poorly, almost inexplicably, I am going to take this easy option and lay some blame on Brian Kerr.
I had my worries about where the support from midfield was going to come from before the kick off, when Duff was partnered by two defensive central midfielders and a defender on the other wing. As we have seen, Duff is often out of the game for long periods (as good as he is) and the service to the frontmen can be stifled.
Thankfully, we got an early goal. Full marks to Elliott for putting it away and saving Ireland's blushes, even at that early stage.
Yet again however, Ireland failed to kick on from that and go out looking for more goals. We seemed to almost invite them onto us to attack our goal, with little or no ambition to drive forward ourselves. Our defence got so deep Shay was almost playing as a sweeper. Cyprus, to their credit, saw this and grew in confidence and lay seige to our goal as best they could.
Suddenly a team of has beens, no hopers and never will be's started playing like they were Brazilian. We looked clueless. Didn't know how to tackle them, how to starve them of possession or that queer idea of actually using the ball ourselves, bleh! If Cyprus had a little more genuine quality or a little more luck, we'd have been looking to Euro 2008 tonight.
Shay Given should be given the freedom of wherever he wants to go in Ireland. He's certainly welcome in my house anytime, although I don't live in Ireland. That penalty save was of the highest order, I'll have to see it again to judge if he guessed the right way or just put in a meteoric dive - but thank god for Shay Given. That and a mass of other great saves. If we, by fluke, make it through to the World Cup then we can thank him.
What worried me more than anything in the first half was that Brian Kerr sat through it and did absolutely nothing. How can you be happy when a team ranked somewhere around 100 in the World, whose fans couldn't be arsed to see them, when our lot out-number them 5-1, and not even consider making a single change? It really baffled me. It was clear we needed something to change, Steven Reid or Holland should have been brought on once it was clear the current crop couldn't hack it.
His half time team talk couldn't have been up to much either.
Kerr will have my support until the end of the qualifying campaign, and maybe even until the World Cup if we manage to pull off a miracle and get there. But, its starting to stare us all in the face that he is out of his depth in this job. I cannot remember the last time we played well. We have struggled to beat bad teams before, and failed to win games we should have won against the better teams we come up against. The odd poor performance can be put down as a law of average, but his average is too low.
I'm sure the future of Kerr will be debated to a death and so I'll drop it.
Tonight, I thought the team were lacking direction as much as anything. Desire might be next on the list of things lacking too.
I have serious doubts over the calibre of Kavanagh, and if he starts on Wednesday night then we can move our qualifying campaign into the daisy ward. He was just part of a poor team performance, it must be said. There are others that went missing, Duff being one of them, and we never really saw Finnan either.
Elliott was spot on, and I thought Robbie worked hard when he was in the game, although he could be called guilty for squandering the odd chance. Joking aside though, they had little or no service for long periods - and when there was service it was so high in the air that some brute of a centre back just swept it up.
I am seriously concerned about Wednesday lads. We really missed Andy Reid tonight, so at least we'll have him back, but if Duff is out then I think we are fighting a losing battle.
I really hope we do it and the team of course have my full backing, but its not looking good.
Ade
30' Switzerland 0 - 0 France
http://www.livescore.net/default.dll?page=home
Its currently 0-0 in the other game. If the choclate makers can go on to win 1-0 then we have a real fighting chance of topping this miserable group. Cant see it though.
Dunphy reckons this team is in decline. I think the same sometimes but we do have good players. I think we really miss RMK in his glory days. Its just life after Roy basically. No leadership, everything used to go through him.
I hope Duffer isnt seriously injured. The two Reids on the wings mightnt be able to produce as much as he would.
Oh, the other positive was connolly. He looked very good. Why wasnt him and Elliott tried in previous games when we needed a goal. Its disapointing to see Doc come on.
O Shea in my books is a diaster. He will never be a great player, he is a pretender and is crap at the bread and butter stuff.
On a slightly brighter note Cyprus are not a bad side, at least not as bad
as you expect them to be if you have a look through their recent results
they look fairly creditable.
Especially this one!!
Cyprus (CYP) 3:2 (1:0) Spain (ESP)
UEFA EURO 2000 Prel. Comp. NICOSIA CYPRUS - 05.09.1998
I expected to have to put my modding hat on and referee an online scrap or two but aas it happens you all agree with each other and I agree with you. :mad:
:ball: PP
PS Rodg, me old mate, I know you don't like the Swiss but it's time to leave the "chocolate makers" tag behind - whilst not inordinately offensive it's a racial slur and I push a rigid PC line on here. Thanks. :)
for your sake PP ill drop the "T.C.M" tag but i wouldnt call it racist. My gripe is , the racist swizz abuse on Clinton Morrision. Also, their players in Dublin last time showed nothing but disrespect to us,the fans. Its a bit rich of them to expect a big cead mile failte from mise.
Its still Switzerland 0 - 0 France at Half Time. It looks like its going to be a low scoring game whatever happens.
The Cyprus are a bad team but they arent terrible at home. I think the Switzerland only got a few late goals from Frie late in the game to make it 3-1. The 4-0 days are gone out there IMHO.
Good man Rodg. For all that I agree with your general point. And like I said elsewhere on this board I would (in best Keegan-esque style ranting mode) "love it, just love it" to see Alexander Frei suffer a reciprocal taunting in front of/from the Lansdowne Road crowd. Oh happy days... :D
:ball: PP
A draw is a bad result for us , means we still have to beat the Swiss but
cannnot top the group. The Swiss will probably settle for a draw,
the French definately will.
I should have put some money on a 0-0 draw.
who the f8ck can we play in midfield on wednesday
andy reid is back and hopefuly duff will come through after comming off earlyQuote:
Originally Posted by concanta
yes
france are ahead
hopefuly they will chase the game and get a few cards
we are ok on the wings - itsw central we need someone
As I predicted France are winning 1:0 ;) :o :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
1-0 to France. Makalale should not be on the pitch. We will not beat this Swiss team.
A france win means second spot is easier for us but means that its the play offs which is always hard. A switzerland win means if we beat them 2-1 then we can top the group but the swiss will come to dublin in good spirits. i dont know which is the best option tbh.
There are no excuses. The second half wasn't any better than the first half - just a different way of playing defensively. To quote a commentator in the second half, "Ireland are frustrating Cyprus"
The Republic of Ireland with its talent is reduced to having to frustrate a diabolical team. Cyprus are diabolical. The Faeroes played well against them. There may not be 0-4s anymore but the manner of the victory should impose that we are better than you and remember that.
Distasteful. Disgraceful. Diabolical. Disastrous. Criminal.
A shocking waste of talent. Usually our strength has been that the sum is better than the individuals. We have very good and very capable individuals. We had this group for the taking.
It would embarrass me to see this team if in the unlikely event we got to the World Cup. We didn't deserve the win..we hardly deserved a draw.
Oh well maybe the next campaign might be different.
But it was destined to end in a draw ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
I think this team like many Irish teams in the past isn't comfortable when they are expected to win, hopefully the direness of this display will make us under-dogs for the game on Wednesday, that is my only hope at this stage. We lacked leadership and our tactics, well we didn't seem to have any , Kerr did make enough changes at half-time to rescue the situation - just about.
Some things are clear - Kilbane cannot be played in the center any longer, he cannot retain possession - one good game away against France when he partnered Roy Keane and came up against rookie opposition is about all he has managed. He is in poor form at the minute anyhow and is simply not a central midfielder.
Cunningham is on his last legs I expect Bruce to buy a replacement at the winter break and Kenny to be a bench warmer, he has been suspect all throughout this campaign. He did some good work today but he needs to be helped through games and struggled for much of this one.
O'Shea, honestly he makes Harte look good?
Carr acts like a 12 year old!
My heart went out to Kavanagh, he tried too hard - I think he wanted to step up today and be the man but was over-anxious.
My finger is pointing to managemnet on this one, sorry Brian - better luck on Wednesday.
Diabolical perforamcne. Theres no denying that. But don't believe for a second that we're going to play like that on Wednesday. Our home record the past 20 years in qualifying matches is as good as anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by dancinpants
What transpired in that first half, there today, genuinely shocked me. A must win game, Kerr's job (seemingly) on the line, a goal up and we proceed to play like we did. I can't find quite the right word to describe it. Kavanagh (for example), was like a rabbit in front of a set of headlights. Did'nt seem to know what he was doing. Kilbane brought his club form with him so Kerr should'nt have been overly shocked with his inept display.
And there in lied our biggest problem. Been over run in midfield by Cyprus. All it took times, was a long ball in over John O' Shea's head and we were in trouble. The first 'tackle' I saw was by Steven Reid on 77 minutes. From that tackle we had our only period (however brief) of attacking possession since the lead up to the Elliot goal.
A complete lack of application to the cause of playing for Ireland is what I saw. Something I've seen all too often during these type of away games.
Is the lads have any respect for Brian Kerr (I suspect they don't), they'll bust a gut on Wednesday to oust the Swiss.
B.t.w. Cudo's to Shay Given. Our ever present world class performer. Where would we be without him?:eek: Fair dues to Elliot also. As well as the goal. Any time he had the ball. He was a threat. A good option off the bench on Wednesday.
Oh how that Irish team could have done with Wes Hoolahan out there :)
To be honest lads, there's not (that) much point in blaming Kerr tonight. The players in the squad are average at best. We dont have a striker playing regular Premiership football, Duff is our only decent attacking midfielder, and if he has a bad game thats not Brians fault. Of the back 4, Id only rate Carr. Dolan said at h/t on Setanta that Brians job was in motivation and that he clearly had done that propperly, the first 5 min were amazing. I cant remember where I saw it but someone was talking about Irish teams, and not just in soccer, not having a 'killer' instinct and find it hard to keep leads, this seems to be especially true in this characterless team. We've had worse games though: Lichenstein, Macidonia (,Iceland?). Id rather play bad and win then play great and draw or loose, so Im going to sleep well tonight knowing that a win against the Swiss will see us to a play-off :)
I think that is a cop-out, who had the better players? we did.
Who looked more up for it? Cyprus did.
Which team had better shape and purpose? Cyprus did.
So if we don't blame Kerr and his staff, we are to blame Premiership players who play better week in week out? Kerr has the raw materials, he just isn't doing it. Blaming the players is a lame excuse.
Dolan said it was Kerr's job to motivate the players? And that he hadn't done that properly?
I'm sorry, but is fighting for a playoff spot not motivational enough? Do the players have to be reminded of this?
Pulling that fcukin green shirt on should be enough to motivate them start with ffs!!!
I'm sorry Qwerty but using the players as an excuse isn't ENTIRELY lame. They shoulder the blame fairly and squarely with the manager.
Oh and Slash, I agree with your last post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy.McClure
Not much point blaming Kerr?..i thought he picked the team and organised the tactics...i thought he was the manager also tonight...seriously no matter how average you think our current squad is there is no way we should ever be dominated by CYPRUS..never!
And just on your other point...we have never played this bad...the funny thing is that Cyprus actually made us look like Cyprus...if you get my drift...
Well Dolan sucked as a manager, it's not just motivation - it's about planning, preparation and purpose. Kerr is losing the plot, his after-match comments left me baffled, was he watching the same game, does he really think the result was fair? I don't think motivation was really the problem, they were just clueless, did they not have a game plan? Where is all the meticulous preparation? Sure the players can take some of the blame but the manager carries the can.Quote:
Originally Posted by dancinpants
For f**k sake. I don't care if Kerr was wrong or right, I want Ireland in the World Cup. So if u r lucky enough to have a ticket for wednesday match get behind that team of ours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not having that at all TM,The exact same tactic was deployed once we went ahead as what happened in both isreal games, the defence strted off defending up near halfway line and once we scored they defended from the box.Thats not a coincidence ,it was a managerial tactic and once again we were fortunate not too have a tel aviv style equaliser.This is the same tactic Houllier used deployQuote:
Originally Posted by Troy.McClure
Look at the cypriots and look at ours !!!! man for man we are ten times the players they are ,and using the strikers as some form of "excuse" is laughable.the strikers wern't the problem ,they did superbly well considering they were on their own again,the problem was that once again we left em isolated ,the midfield (such as it is) were practically on our own box.
Kilbane has to be moved from that central midfield role,he's terrible,jesus h ,I'd rather shay given played there than him ,and o'shea has to be dropped ,I'd rather Finnan played there than him.He's a calamity waiting tooo happen.Kerr is being well bloody paid to do his and he seems blind to both of em
Seems to me that as soon as we get a lead , we sit back to defend on the lead while kerr hopes that a bit of magic or skill from one of the front men will tie up the result.We've paid dearly for that tactic this campaign
The only plus to take out of tonite is that gary doherty didn't get a sniff up front tonite thanks to a very mature performance from ElliotConsidering w've been calling for that for ages and it takes a suspension to force his hand ,is that good management ??
Why is it that kerr is incapable of seeing the problems that are plain as day to us humble supporters ???
As for carr, he's been living off his reputation from his early career for a long long time now , Finnan is the best fullback we have by a long shot .Carr is the only player in the squad,(bar the Honeymonster obviously) that makes Andy reid look slim and athletic
Quote:
Originally Posted by redgav
??? Honeymonster? Have you seen the guy for the last 18 months at all?
Well...... What do you say???
Some of the players will have to consider themselves extremely lucky that so many of them played so dire that they can't all be dropped for Wednesday..... Unbelievable.
Kavanagh got some positve praise in some of the posts and I honestly didn't see it last night. He was poison. All the things I expected from him went out the window. He was sloppy, uncomfortable on the ball, was disposessed a number of times and his set peices were brutal. He was afraid to take more than two touches and look up.
Kilbane is still surviving on the basis of that performance in Paris and has to be taken out of the equation for the centre of the park now, though he may play on the left in Duffers absence depending on Kerrs thinking. O'Shea above all played himself onto the bench on wednesday.
I honestly dunno what 11 will take the pitch agains the Swiss. Matt Holland I think played himself into a start and Steven Reid has shown in recent games for Blackburn, and even a bit last night, that he retains posession well, even if it's a bit too safety first at times.
I'm generally not one for knee jerk reactions but if it was up to me I'd nearly overhall the team, especially the midfield. I'd say Carr, Kenny & Dunne are only just safe. I'd bring in Harte for O'shea as the best of a bad choice. The middle would consist of A.Reid on the right with Reid and Holland in the middle and Kilbane on the left, swapping flanks with Andy Reid as they go. Morrison should return up front... Even after that there's a real lack of spark on the bench.
I'm not confident though.....
Just a few corrections on some of the comments above. The 2nd half was not as bad as the first by a long shot. Givens didn't have to make 1 save in the 2nd half other than a punch clear from a dangerous cross.
Kerr adjusted things at half time and it worked reasonably well as Mattie got the foot in and broke up a lot of their attacks - that is what Kerr is paid to due.
As for all stuff about missing a leader. The "great one" played away to Israel and the Faroes and we weren't exactly a whole lot better in the leadership stakes in those games. We miss his football ability of course.
Why was O'Brien dropped for Dunne ? Was never quite sure of that since O'Brien had done a good job up to his being dropped.
O'Shea was poor but as least he was in the right spot to cover the attackers even if he didn't make the tackles :eek: ! Harte won't even be in the right spot but will be jogging back hopelessly out of position. It's like a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea there.
Morrisson has scored against the Swiss. He will have to start and Elliott to come off the bench later on if necessary.
Tactically was annoyed me the most were the long kick outs by Given to the two midgets up front - no one seemed to want to take the ball off him from a throw out etc. Have seen this before under Kerr.
For the size of the support, I thought the noise from the Irish fans was brutal and reports from my friends there confirmed this.
On a positive note - 3 pts and f the performance. Wednesday is a totally different ball game.
How I scored em: It might look harsh but we were outplayed by Cyprus......
Given 9
Carr 5
Cunningham 4
Dunne 5
O Shea 4
Duff 5
Finnan 4
Kilbane 4
Kavanagh 5
Keane 4
Elliott 6
S Reid 6
Holland 6
Penanlty misser (not enough time to make an impact)
I think Dunne's been getting off lightly in the posts so far. he's looking a liability.
He may be a great player and in good form for his club, but he and Cunningham don't make for a good partnership.
For some reason, O'Brien and Cunningham seem to work well together, and I just hope Kerr goes with this for Wed.
we also lack leadership with Keano gone, no Irish spirit in that team. No wise head to give a few of the players a rollocking when they need it. If there was a lot of pressure on Kerr last week then it's gonna be unbearable for him on the run up to Wedn night. Holland and S Reid made an impact and should start.
For what it's worth (I was drunk and emotional):
Given: World class. Anything less than his very best and we were in real trouble. It shouldn't be like this against Cyprus. Has taken over Roy Keane's mantle as our true world class player. Duff is on par skill and ability wise, but Given is the man that is the difference between a loss and a draw or a draw and a win. Vital. 9
Carr: I dont really understand the total slagging he got in the Independent this morning. He certainly wasn't brilliant, but in the second half in particular he was at least getting on the ball and taking responsibility. 6
O'Shea: Not too flash. Infuriating when in posession (like a lot of his team mates) and coughs it up so easy. They're called unforced errors in tennis. Confusion seems to be a feature of the defences in which he's a senior member (Man Utd in Silvestre, Neville, Heinze's absence recently and now ours). 5
Cunningham: Having less and less good days at the office. Is it the positional sense of the midfielders or are the legs finally gone? Probably a bit of both. We need him to marshall the troops at the back, but the good days are getting fewer and further between. 5
Dunne: Another tough day for him. I was happy to see Kerr play him, but perhaps he's suffering a bit for us because he gets to play with Distin at City who is a lot of things Cunningham no longer is or ever was (pacey, athletic). Gave away the penalty, but it wasn't all his fault. You could argue he was forced into a last ditch tackle. 5
Finnan: Mmmm. Didn't set the world on fire. Was he injured to come off or did Kerr make a tactical change? Not sure he was the worst offender. Personally I felt someone in the centre of the park needed to be called ashore. 5
Duff: Baffling. Just not doing much at the moment at all. Almost entirely anonymous in the first half. I can't doubt his commitment, but maybe he's not got the belief anymore? At Chelsea he's surrounded by fantastic players that can give him the ball in dangerous positions. For Ireland he occassionally gets the ball and very rarely in good positions. An improved showing in the second half when switched to the right...but then that fecking injury! 5
Kilbane: I don't want to be nasty. It's obvious to all and sundry that is confidence is low. He's playing poorly in his best position for Everton and even worse in a temporary makeshift position for us. Is it his positional sense? I'm not sure. We were very bad in the centre of the park. He was anonymous at best. 4
Kavanagh: Another tough one. From the sublime (nah...not sublime...semi decent to the ridiculous). Did some decent things. I liked his tackling. Maybe he's let down having an unnatural centre midfielder partnering him as things seemed to improve in the second half. 5
Keane: A big improvement on the France match. Did some good things and was strong to make the goal for Elliott. I don't agree with some of the assesments that his partnership with Elliott was a failure. Really didn't get the service though. 6
Elliott: The goal aside, was still the better of the pair of strikers. I read that McCarthy said his strength has improved significantly the past year and I agree. Not the finished article, but that finish was pure Lineker. The "fox in the box"? 7
Subs:
Holland for Finnan (46): I don't know if it was the team playing better or the Whiskey starting to numb the pain, but seemed to shore things up in the second half. 6
S.Reid for Duff (late...ha ha): Not too bad. 6
Connolly on for Keane (80something): not on long enough to rate.
Killer instinct?
We have never had it as a nation. Sure it took us 800 years to partially remove the English :D
O'Shea warrants a minus rating lad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin77
As do Kavanagh and Carr, CTID...:( :D
We need a leader on the pitch pure and simple and we dont have one.
I think in hindsight the performance last night was the same against the cyprus in the last world cup qualifers minus Roy Keane. We were muck back then too its just that Roy was in the centre of the park doing EVERYTHING. Like him or loath him you have to accept that the 4-0 was very flattering. 2-0 is about the result we should be getting out there with a solid performance.
Holland in for Kilbane, Steven Reid on right, Andy Reid on left, maybe Finnan for Carr & a big kick up the hole for OShea,
Plastic Clint to replace Robbie or else the bench.