Nations League draw

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

No issue at all with some kind of protest in the stadium, in fact I agree there should be one. But let's face it, it's not going to make a single iota of difference. Nor would Ireland not fulfilling the fixture make any difference, or the supporters boycotting the game.

I'm seeing far too many Ireland supporters online who seem to genuinely think that what they do here actually matters. Maybe they should give some consideration as to whether their time could be better spent doing something that might actually make a difference to people suffering in Gaza rather than something that is likely to achieve nothing other than make them feel better about themselves.

If anyone actually wants to make a tangible difference to people's lives they'd be better served throwing a few quid at the link below.

https://www.map.org.uk/how-to-help/donate/

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In the most part I don't think we differ in opinion greatly, but I do think your framing of the situation is very wrong. You don't know why people feel or say the things they say, and trying to state what everyone feels weakens your argument. Especially when you assume everyone is virtue signalling.

I know i will never be in a situation where I can impact the situation in the middle East. It doesn't mean I don't feel for the situation and wish things were different, and me taking a private decision not to attend the game and not watch them doesn't impact anyone else but me, but i'd personally feel like i'm supporting the situation by normalising it, if I chose to do anything differently.

Others will attend the game and protest there, others may be more extreme in their actions, I hope no one goes too far but ultimately that is their decisions. What I can say for everyone is this, their actions do not matter less or more because they donated to the right cause.

Like do you need to have been on one of the aid flotilla's or a doctor in gaza before you "care enough". The Dunnes Stores workers protesting apartheid South Africa were more than likely scoffed at the same way back in those protests. But its all routed in the same belief, we are just saying "this isn't normal and we aren't letting you believe it is".

I'd love to think the game doesn't happen, but it will, i'd love to think no one will turn up, but they will, i'd love to think we as a nation can say "no not this time", but it likely won't happen. But I hope enough people protest in the right way that it starts something bigger

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

If anyone actually wants to make a tangible difference to people's lives they'd be better served throwing a few quid at the link below.

https://www.map.org.uk/how-to-help/donate/

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There's an assumption here that people have only noticed Israel are committing genocide in plain sight since the draw yesterday, and that we face a binary choice between protesting at this match, or supporting the Palestinian people financially. Utterly bizarre.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

People see similarities with this situation and the South African rugby tour of the early 80s.

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It's why Russia are banned from everything too - Poland took a stance, and the Czechs and Wales (I think?) backed them up

It's tough going against the crowd of course. Poland had more reason than most to object. But even normalising official reactions against them could accumulate into something bigger. And it's morally the right thing to do, as has been said

Not seeking to make any political point, but I suspect the key difference is/was that both Russia and UKR are in the same Confederation, meaning UEFA had to do something. (It wasn't just the possibility of the two being drawn together, since draws often keep two given countries separate. Rather it was because many other countries besides UKR would have refused to play Russia)

Whereas Israel and Palestine aren't, meaning that FIFA could avoid having to intervene.

Personally would not feel right watching this shower play a game(only a game!), whilst blithely ignoring a ceasefire and continuing to simultaneously slaughter the people of Gaza, and silently and slowly kill the hostages they have in their death camps.
An unsettlingly evil race of people, I’ll stay at as great a distance as I can whilst helping the enemies of this monstrosity as much as possible.
A boycott from either players or association would be both heartening and a correct moral stance.
From the FFG blowhards I expect nothing sadly.

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Originally Posted by Dermobohs

Personally would not feel right watching this shower play a game(only a game!), whilst blithely ignoring a ceasefire and continuing to simultaneously slaughter the people of Gaza, and silently and slowly kill the hostages they have in their death camps.
An unsettlingly evil race of people.

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I presume the Israeli players would have served in the IDF? I think it's mandatory there?

They mightn't have been front line, but another reason to have significant opposition to the match


https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-41793251.html

Examiner reporting the game may be moved abroad - as Belgium did 18 months ago.

I'd be ok with that tbh

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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Holier than thou pontificating???
Sweet Jesus Christ.
They are actively perusing the annihilation of an entire people, as they have been since 1948.
Get a ****ing grip.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

There's an assumption here that people have only noticed Israel are committing genocide in plain sight since the draw yesterday, and that we face a binary choice between protesting at this match, or supporting the Palestinian people financially. Utterly bizarre.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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That argument works in reverse too. There's been a hell of a lot more chat about this across the board since the draw was made yesterday. But, as you say, the genocide didn't start yesterday or anywhere close to it. So, if what people want to do is go out on the streets and protest (or whatever it is they want to do) they don't need to wait until October. They can do it as soon as tonight.

Look, I'm not trying to be contrarian or whatever here, but the reality here is that a football match is a complete irrelevance to what is actually happening in the middle east. If people want to make even a small difference they can do something that actually makes a small difference and I have offered a direct way to do that up the thread. If they want to make no difference but make themselves feel better and contribute to Ireland supporters' international standing as a "great bunch of lads" or whatever, they can take actions relating to the football match. Or, as you say, they can do both, but it's the one that will make no difference that is sucking in all the oxygen this week.

In fairness, of course a match against the Israeli national team in Ireland - featuring some players who have served in the IDF - is going to attract talk of protests. There's a difference between a beep-your-horn protest at a bridge and a protest at a major sporting event which could get Europe-wide coverage (the protest, not the match)

It's not surprising talk has escalated

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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We all fall at different points on the political spectrum, and I do believe everyone should be included in sport as best we can. But when things cross a certain line, it becomes untenable to sit on the fence.

But i'm trying my best to stay fair and hear you out here. But saying the stance of "our country" as "holier than though" needs explanation.

I'm not trying to get into definitions of "what is or isn't a genocide" or talking down to people that are less 'politically inclined'. But the idea that not being comfortable with the bombings, lack of aid, lack of journalism, lack of empathy and the lack of dignity that has been afforded to the Palestinians, and that somehow that there is a "real world" out there that see's things as they are, and the rest of us are fools. To be honest that's hard to hear and offensive to me.

I'm not accusing you of being a wind up merchant and will allow you a chance to defend yourself before passing judgement. But I find it very hard to accept that any person looking at other humans suffering, and their only concern is "are we sacrificing 6 points here". And look, i'll accept that that may be some people's perspective, but honestly, if it is genuinely what you think, i'm disappointed

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

That argument works in reverse too. There's been a hell of a lot more chat about this across the board since the draw was made yesterday. But, as you say, the genocide didn't start yesterday or anywhere close to it. So, if what people want to do is go out on the streets and protest (or whatever it is they want to do) they don't need to wait until October. They can do it as soon as tonight.

Look, I'm not trying to be contrarian or whatever here, but the reality here is that a football match is a complete irrelevance to what is actually happening in the middle east. If people want to make even a small difference they can do something that actually makes a small difference and I have offered a direct way to do that up the thread. If they want to make no difference but make themselves feel better and contribute to Ireland supporters' international standing as a "great bunch of lads" or whatever, they can take actions relating to the football match. Or, as you say, they can do both, but it's the one that will make no difference that is sucking in all the oxygen this week.

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I guess that's your opinion, but it flies in the face of history.

I can't think of another single pressure point that did more to bring down apartheid regime in South Africa than the sporting boycott. The 2 situations aren't an exact facsimile of each other, but there are similarities. If you look at the Wikipedia page about apartheid the word "rugby" appears 10 times. For context, the word "Tutu" is only on there 4 times.

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Originally Posted by Nelson Mandela

I became president sooner because of the sacrifices made by our athletes during the years of the boycott

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This conversation is dominating the national discourse because this sort of boycott is a tremendously powerful means of placing regimes like Israel outside the international pale. If the FAI can get the public backing of 4 or 5 other members of UEFA between now and October they should boycott the fixtures. Politically I can see why they have done what they have so far, but there's nothing to say they won't bow to public pressure on the other side of the Taoiseach getting out of the White House on Paddys Day and knowing if we are heading to Atlanta, GA to play in a World Cup game this summer.

Edit: A note of appreciation for the mods. They've spent years if not decades trying to keep political matters to the current affairs forum. And then this happens. God help them negotiating the next 9 months with this going on.

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Originally Posted by plib

we all fall at different points on the political spectrum, and i do believe everyone should be included in sport as best we can. But when things cross a certain line, it becomes untenable to sit on the fence.

But i'm trying my best to stay fair and hear you out here. But saying the stance of "our country" as "holier than though" needs explanation.

I think there might have been some atrocities committed in the name of irish nationalism


i'm not trying to get into definitions of "what is or isn't a genocide" or talking down to people that are less 'politically inclined'. But the idea that not being comfortable with the bombings, lack of aid, lack of journalism, lack of empathy and the lack of dignity that has been afforded to the palestinians, and that somehow that there is a "real world" out there that see's things as they are, and the rest of us are fools. To be honest that's hard to hear and offensive to me.

I think you've fleshed that out and drawn whatever you wanted from it

i'm not accusing you of being a wind up merchant and will allow you a chance to defend yourself before passing judgement. But i find it very hard to accept that any person looking at other humans suffering, and their only concern is "are we sacrificing 6 points here". And look, i'll accept that that may be some people's perspective, but honestly, if it is genuinely what you think, i'm disappointed

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in fairness it was a poorish play on the quote that football isnt a matter of life and death but more important than that (prob not accurate quote). Here, youre right, im a thousand times more concerned about the football than the politics, but im not unmoved by human suffering. I just dont tend to look up any of it and prefer to watch golf or football.

Sorry I've made an arse of that quote. I assume ye can work it out !

Yeah, let’s just thrash them instead…

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Originally Posted by Dermobohs

An unsettlingly evil race of people

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Good grief!

No different from what eg Israeli extremists say about the Palestinian people - the very definition of Racism.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

I can't think of another single pressure point that did more to bring down apartheid regime in South Africa than the sporting boycott. The 2 situations aren't an exact facsimile of each other, but there are similarities. If you look at the Wikipedia page about apartheid the word "rugby" appears 10 times. For context, the word "Tutu" is only on there 4 times.

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Cannot agree. Sure, the sporting boycott got a great deal of publicity, in these islands at least (90% of the world didn't know anything about Rugby or Cricket, or didn't much care if they did).

The apartheid government in South Africa fell in the early 1990s (culminating in 1994) due to a combination of intense internal mass resistance, crippling international economic sanctions, and the shifting geopolitical landscape after the Cold War. The regime became unsustainable due to rising internal conflict, a weakening economy, and the loss of international support, all of which caused De Klerk to read the writing on the wall and sue for peace while he still could.

The Cold War bit was very significant, since as this US Analysis states: "Defenders of the Apartheid regime, both inside and outside South Africa, had promoted it as a bulwark against communism. However, the end of the Cold War rendered this argument obsolete."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm

And while the rugby-loving Afrikaaners were very attached to their rugby and cricket etc, nonetheless they could live without it - they couldn't live without cheap oil etc.

Which is the same as Israel - when it comes to it, a monster like Netanyahu can live without Football etc.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In fairness, of course a match against the Israeli national team in Ireland - featuring some players who have served in the IDF - is going to attract talk of protests. There's a difference between a beep-your-horn protest at a bridge and a protest at a major sporting event which could get Europe-wide coverage (the protest, not the match)

It's not surprising talk has escalated

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But, you see, your post and backtowalsalls post below you precisely encapsulate the problem here. You think it's going to get Europe wide coverage, he/she thinks it could actually affect the Israeli regime. It's a classic case of football supporters thinking they're far more important beyond football than they actually are.

The reality is that any actions at a Nations League B division group game are unlikely to generate much if any interest beyond the two countries involved. And let's face it the Israelis already know we're not their friends and they don't care. So it's not going to have any impact beyond making the people involved feel good about themselves. And a bit of virtue signalling thrown in of course. Which really isn't what's important here.

And as pointed out by another poster, even if it did have some kind of impact on Israeli football - which it won't - that's not going to have any impact on Gaza either way anyway. Israel have a mediocre national team and aren't going to be that arsed in the bigger scheme of things even if they were impacted by any Irish supporters' actions (which - again - they won't be).

So, that's why my position is that we should stick to the football in terms of this fixture, pack the place out (if the Gardai even have the balls to let us host the game), create a hostile atmosphere for the opposition in the stadium on the night and put non-football energy towards supporting groups and organisations that might actually be able to make a positive difference in a wider sense.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

But, you see, your post and backtowalsalls post below you precisely encapsulate the problem here. You think it's going to get Europe wide coverage, he/she thinks it could actually affect the Israeli regime.

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A protest at a Nations League game would certainly get Europe-wide coverage. The Nations League Europe-wide tournament. There's highlights and coverage of the games and snippets of news from sites and papers with stories to write and click-bait to generate. I don't think it would be the top story on news across Europe - but it would be mentioned across Europe.

Now, I don't think Europe-wide coverage would change anything. That said, for you to suggest that would make it a protest virtue signalling is a bizarre leap.

Poland et al did stand up against the Russians, and it hasn't stopped the war. But the various sanctions are having some bit of an impact in Russia. Russia being removed from UEFA/FIFA is part of that. The isolation of South Africa certainly had some impact against the apartheid regime - although how much is of course disputed. Both of those started up with countries standing up for principles and refusing to play Russia/South Africa. It required others to join in of course. But you can only do what you can do.

Bottom line - if taking some sort of action (be it a protest, or refusing to host Israel here) isn't going to do anything, and your suggestion of creating a hostile atmosphere isn't going to do anything, why would you go with the latter?

It appears an FAI EGM could be called, with the sole motion on the agenda being an official boycott of the games - whether or not that *should* be the policy is a matter of opinion, but it seems the wheels are in motion on a formal debate:https://www.thejournal.ie/fai-egm-ir...nt=top-stories

Giving israel 6 pojnts and handicaping our seeding going forwards wont bother the israeli Government whatsoevwr.Arent we already boycotting the Eurovision song contest and it hasnt brought the regime to its knees.Make the same point by playing behind closed doora in dublin and decorate the stands with whatevwr pro palistinian messages will keep people happy.Id ratber have the points and protest then no points and protest

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bottom line - if taking some sort of action (be it a protest, or refusing to host Israel here) isn't going to do anything, and your suggestion of creating a hostile atmosphere isn't going to do anything, why would you go with the latter?

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For football reasons, obviously. That you can't see that adds to my view that you've lost sight of what all this actually relates to - a football match.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Giving israel 6 pojnts and handicaping our seeding going forwards wont bother the israeli Government whatsoevwr.Arent we already boycotting the Eurovision song contest and it hasnt brought the regime to its knees.Make the same point by playing behind closed doora in dublin and decorate the stands with whatevwr pro palistinian messages will keep people happy.Id ratber have the points and protest then no points and protest

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Rome wasn't built in a day, and assuming that the first protest brings down the regime is thinking on a very basic level. The goal of not playing the match isn't to bring down the Israeli government, its to begin a process of isolating them from the international community and eventually through long term pressure and social isolation forcing change.

You might prefer to play the game and not care, others do care and feel playing the game normalises the Israeli actions of the past few years. But being flippant about it and saying "sure we left the eurovision and nothing changed" is either willful ignorance or completely missing the point.

When you trade with a country, buy its currency, play international sports with them, invite them to other cultural events, that all normalises relations and gives regimes legitimacy. Doing the opposite doesn't collapse a regime instantly, but over time and with enough pressure it can help change things.

The question is, do irish fans want to do this. And from what I can tell, some absolutely do, and some can't understand why anyone would. "I'd rather have 6 points", to me is crazy, to you saying "i'd rather not play" is crazy

The only country that wins from us not fulfilling the fixture is Israel. The only country that loses is us. Nobody else gives a **** whether we play them or not. People really need to get a grip here.

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Originally Posted by Plib

The goal of not playing the match isn't to bring down the Israeli government, its to begin a process of isolating them from the international community and eventually through long term pressure and social isolation forcing change.

When you trade with a country, buy its currency, play international sports with them, invite them to other cultural events, that all normalises relations and gives regimes legitimacy. Doing the opposite doesn't collapse a regime instantly, but over time and with enough pressure it can help change things.

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Half the world has been against Israel since its formation and it hasn't made a damned bit difference - in fact they've only got ever stronger.

Nor will any of the sort of pressure you suggest make any difference so long as it continues to receive the support of the USA, which it will, even under a Democratic administration.

Here's what will change it, namely the Israeli political system aka democracy. Netanya knows that the minute he's out of office, he will face very serious criminal charges - fraud, bribery, corruption etc. Meaning that when he and his Likud party were unable to form a majority government after the last election, he was forced to include some very nasty Far Right figures in his (5 party) coalition - he was that desperate.

And the key reason why their assault on Palestine has been so particularly outrageous is because that Far Right "tail" has been wagging the coalition "dog". While the continuation of the conflict has muted domestic opposition to Netanyahu - another reason why he is determined to keep it going, even after any (so-called) ceasefire.

Anyhow the next General Election, due October this year, could very well see him and his coalition voted out. At which point we could see the (hoped for) long road back from barbarity and towards some sort of peaceful normality, with the added bonus of Netanyahu ending up behind bars, where he should have been years ago.

Meanwhile, whatever the FAI does or not do over these two football matches will make no more difference to Netanyahu & Co than if they (FAI) were all to drop their pants in unison and fart in the direction of Israel.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

The only country that wins from us not fulfilling the fixture is Israel. The only country that loses is us. Nobody else gives a **** whether we play them or not. People really need to get a grip here.

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You won't understand this, but its not about winning and losing, its about doing the right thing

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Half the world has been against Israel since its formation and it hasn't made a damned bit difference - in fact they've only got ever stronger.

Nor will any of the sort of pressure you suggest make any difference so long as it continues to receive the support of the USA, which it will, even under a Democratic administration.

Here's what will change it, namely the Israeli political system aka democracy. Netanya knows that the minute he's out of office, he will face very serious criminal charges - fraud, bribery, corruption etc. Meaning that when he and his Likud party were unable to form a majority government after the last election, he was forced to include some very nasty Far Right figures in his (5 party) coalition - he was that desperate.

And the key reason why their assault on Palestine has been so particularly outrageous is because that Far Right "tail" has been wagging the coalition "dog". While the continuation of the conflict has muted domestic opposition to Netanyahu - another reason why he is determined to keep it going, even after any (so-called) ceasefire.

Anyhow the next General Election, due October this year, could very well see him and his coalition voted out. At which point we could see the (hoped for) long road back from barbarity and towards some sort of peaceful normality, with the added bonus of Netanyahu ending up behind bars, where he should have been years ago.

Meanwhile, whatever the FAI does or not do over these two football matches will make no more difference to Netanyahu & Co than if they (FAI) were all to drop their pants in unison and fart in the direction of Israel.

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You're not wrong, I don't disagree with anything you said. But that doesn't mean you have to go along with it.

There doesn't have to be a like for like action and result to take a stand. Its no difference than any other protest to any other situation. Its not about "we won't play this match and therefore X will be the result". Its we don't play the match and conversations are forced.

I know to some people it seems crazy, but to me its crazy to vindicate a regime like this for the sake of the nations league.

And to some that will make perfect sense, and to others it will seem absolutely ridiculous.

I can't push my morals or beliefs on anyone no more than they can do that to me. I'm just telling you what the conversations are and what some people are feeling.

Some might see it as "virtue signaling" or "keyboard warrior stuff". Its really just being uninterested in pretending any of this is normal

Play the game and give people the oppurtunity to protest. Thats what the dublin football team did recently when there was talk of a ban over the Alianz conection. Give people who want to see the match the chance and those that want to protest their chance.

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Originally Posted by Plib

You won't understand this, but its not about winning and losing, its about doing the right thing

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You won't understand this, but the right thing to do (in all senses) is to play the match, and play it in Dublin. If people want to peacefully protest in the stadium or outside, that's absolutely fine. But not playing the match is letting Israel win and also in the process allowing our national football team be used as a political vehicle, which is not and has never been what the team is about.

Even though I obviously am on the same side in terms of the Israel/Palestine argument, I fundamentally disagree with the concept of allowing the national football team to be politicised in this way. The noises are positive this evening regarding the game going ahead in Dublin. I hope common sense will prevail here.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

You won't understand this, but the right thing to do (in all senses) is to play the match, and play it in Dublin. If people want to peacefully protest in the stadium or outside, that's absolutely fine. But not playing the match is letting Israel win and also in the process allowing our national football team be used as a political vehicle, which is not and has never been what the team is about. Even though I obviously am on the same side in terms of the Israel/Palestine argument, I fundamentally disagree with the concept of allowing the national football team to be politicised in this way. The noises are positive this evening regarding the game going ahead in Dublin. I hope common sense will prevail here.

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No i fully grasp what you are saying, I just think its very "i'm alright Jack". I'm not looking to get into political ideologies, but I don't understand how anyone can be so flippant about letting a regime that has band journalists, while bombing schools and hospitals and be like "welcome to the uefa club, we're gonna kick your ass on the pitch and raise banners in protest" and be happy to watch the game. It'd feel like watching the 1936 games to me, but i'm also probably idealistic.Sports is politics, you just enjoy sports so can mentally make the separation. But choosing to play with a regime is just legitimising it, you might not want to accept that. But it is. If the game goes ahead, its no more appropriate than "i was just following orders", "everyone else was doing it", or "no one said it wasn't okay at the time"

Should we boycott China? Argentima when it was a dictatorship, north korea? .The trouble with politcising sport is where do you stop.Our thaioseach is just back from visiting a pretty dastardly dictatorship in China trying to drum up business, is it only sport that has to boycott?Although on second thoughts im not going to bother arguing about thos as after we win in the czech republic and beat denmark to qualify and then win the world cup our seading in the nations league wont matter, so ill postpone my debate until then

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Should we boycott China? Argentima when it was a dictatorship, north korea? .The trouble with politcising sport is where do you stop.Our thaioseach is just back from visiting a pretty dastardly dictatorship in China trying to drum up business, is it only sport that has to boycott?Although on second thoughts im not going to bother arguing about thos as after we win in the czech republic and beat denmark to qualify and then win the world cup our seading in the nations league wont matter, so ill postpone my debate until then

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That's "whataboutism" and a fallacy of debate. What about the homeless, what about sick irish kids. Its pretty easy to drag debates into areas that have nothing to do with anything. We aren't playing China anytime soon, and when we do that debate can start.Its clear we are never going to agree, as you finish your point off talking about seeding. Which means we aren't even in the same realm of thought process, and there really isn't any middle ground for us to discuss from.The core of the issue is this, i'm okay with sacrificing a couple of games and some points to not engage with an exercise that legitimises a regime i think should be socially excluded. For others that makes absolutely no sense and is taking away something they don't want to give up.Whatever my perspective is, I can accept ultimately, knowing how the world is currently, this game is likely to go ahead. I'm just voicing why people like me have major issues with that and am explaining how we feel about it and what an "idealist" is thinking.I'd be hard pushed to be convinced there's any merit in playing the game, and saying things like "it doesn't achieve anything", "you hardly think its going to bring down the israeli government" "its giving the Israeli team 6 points" is like trying to convert me to mormonism, none of those arguments have any resonance to me. Saying "the only team to win from not playing is Israel" is completely false to me. Because playing the game is ultimately how Israel win in my head, legitimising them

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Half the world has been against Israel since its formation and it hasn't made a damned bit difference - in fact they've only got ever stronger.

Nor will any of the sort of pressure you suggest make any difference so long as it continues to receive the support of the USA, which it will, even under a Democratic administration.

Here's what will change it, namely the Israeli political system aka democracy. Netanya knows that the minute he's out of office, he will face very serious criminal charges - fraud, bribery, corruption etc. Meaning that when he and his Likud party were unable to form a majority government after the last election, he was forced to include some very nasty Far Right figures in his (5 party) coalition - he was that desperate.

And the key reason why their assault on Palestine has been so particularly outrageous is because that Far Right "tail" has been wagging the coalition "dog". While the continuation of the conflict has muted domestic opposition to Netanyahu - another reason why he is determined to keep it going, even after any (so-called) ceasefire.

Anyhow the next General Election, due October this year, could very well see him and his coalition voted out. At which point we could see the (hoped for) long road back from barbarity and towards some sort of peaceful normality, with the added bonus of Netanyahu ending up behind bars, where he should have been years ago.

Meanwhile, whatever the FAI does or not do over these two football matches will make no more difference to Netanyahu & Co than if they (FAI) were all to drop their pants in unison and fart in the direction of Israel.

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You make a lot of sense in this post and are far more well informed than many on the issue.

However, I wouldn’t be against a boycott or at least a protest by fans. Whether it makes no difference or not, it’s showing the world and UEFA that we oppose them.

Personally, I’m on the fence about the games. I generally don’t like politics mixing with sport but this seems bigger than that.

I’m sure many people did nothing during apartheid and told others not to bother but it did eventually change. Tiny drops into a bucket will eventually overflow.

If Palestine had a charismatic leader like Mandela and got rid of Hamas fundamentalist lunatics, that would also be a pretty big help to the cause too.

Would a poll to gauge the overall opinion of the forum be worthwhile? Maybe Tets can add one to the thread if considered appropriate. I would suggest a simple two option poll - play the game (likely with protests against Israel inside and outside the stadium) vs refuse to play the game.

Let's say three options
Attend the game
Attend the game, with protest
Full boycott

Any other suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Dermobohs

Holier than thou pontificating???
Sweet Jesus Christ.
They are actively perusing the annihilation of an entire people, as they have been since 1948.
Get a ****ing grip.

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If they were actively pursuing the annihilation of an entire people they could have done so by now

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Originally Posted by Glen Of Aherlow

If they were actively pursuing the annihilation of an entire people they could have done so by now

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Not to defend Netanyu in the least, but in 1948 the population of Palestine was estimated to be just over 1.2m. By 2025 it had reached 5.6m.

And I make this point not because it has any relevance to the present football debate, but because that debate should not be framed by people like 'Dermobohs' whose views may be being framed in ignorance of some basic facts of the conflict.

Back to the football, whatever the FAI do will make no difference whatever to the plight of the Palestinian people, or the policies of the Netanyahu government. Therefore assuming that the two games will go ahead regardless, ROI fans must do whatever pleases them most:
A. Make a stand on principle and have nothing to do with this game, even knowing it will make zero practical difference in Palestine/Israel;
or
B. Attend the Dublin game but protest, even knowing it will make zero practical difference in Palestine/Israel;
or
C. Attend the game and just watch/support the team as normal, even knowing it will make zero practical difference in Palestine/Israel.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not to defend Netanyu in the least, but in 1948 the population of Palestine was estimated to be just over 1.2m. By 2025 it had reached 5.6m.And I make this point not because it has any relevance to the present football debate, but because that debate should not be framed by people like 'Dermobohs' whose views may be being framed in ignorance of some basic facts of the conflict.

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Bit of ignorance on your part or possibly willful misunderstanding of statistics. The population growth you sighted was roughly 4.7X across 80 years. While the global population increased by 3.2X in that time. Not saying being above the average is in anyway wrong, but Palestine was not one of the drivers of population growth in the world in that time.So how would Gaza be able to increase its population beyond global norms during this period? Because the Israeli's moved all the people out of other lands and forced them into small pockets in the West Bank and Gaza. So yes, Gaza's population has increased during the 80 years, but through displacing people from other lands and into Gaza.But also, that's besides the point, and the match is what we should be discussing

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Originally Posted by Plib

So how would Gaza be able to increase its population beyond global norms during this period? Because the Israeli's moved all the people out of other lands and forced them into small pockets in the West Bank and Gaza.

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Actually there are two other factors which are much more influential in explaining the population growth in Palestine:
"Palestine maintains a significantly higher birth rate than the world average, with a total fertility rate of approximately 3.31 births per woman in 2023, compared to a global average of 2.41. While declining from historically higher levels, Palestinian fertility remains notably higher than the global average, with the Gaza Strip generally showing higher rates than the West Bank."

And with this higher birth rate, Palestine has been unable to ease population pressures via emigration, since so few other countries will actually accept them, including (ironically) their nearest Arab neighbours, most of whom have shown very little sympathy, practical or otherwise, for Palestine. In fact many are actively hostile, what with Palestine/Hamas seen as being in the Iran/Hezbollah camp.

P.S. How in practice could "Israel [have] moved all the people out of other lands and forced them into small pockets in the West Bank and Gaza", and precisely which "other lands"? Israel can have no ability to move displaced Palestinians (or other Arabs) from eg Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc, for obvious reasons, nor would they want to, preferring instead to keep the Palestinian nation fragmented and dispersed. And as for Arabs in Israel itself, the Arab population in Israel itself grew from an estimated 156k in 1948, to 2.1m by 2024, so they can't have sent too many from their own country.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Let's say three options
Attend the game
Attend the game, with protest
Full boycott

Any other suggestions?

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They're the three options as fans I guess - is there an additional option for visas to be denied (a la Yugoslavia 1999) or for it to be played on neutral ground (the Examiner article)? They're nuclear options, but it's only a vote sure.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

For football reasons, obviously. That you can't see that adds to my view that you've lost sight of what all this actually relates to - a football match.

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Some things are more important than football though. I don't think it's healthy to not see that.

I don't see how a protest or a boycott is letting Israel win - you haven't really explained that. And the national team has absolutely been used as a political tool before - I keep referencing the Yugoslavia '99 game as a clear example. And let's not forget the Yugoslavia game in 1955, plus the 1981 rugby union tour of South Africa, which was heavily criticised by the Government of the day. There may well be other examples.

The idea that sport and politics don't mix is a lazy get-out for people who just don't want to get involved in politics. But that's not really good enough in my view.