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The language is taught entirely wrong in schools. Instead of learning prose, poetry and books by wrote, why not concentrate more on verbal and everyday communication rather than Peig ****ing Sayers. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Common sense, but then again since when has FF ever been associated with it.
:rolleyes:
We are way behind our fellow Europeans in terms of language ability and in this aspect our educational system is failing us, but that is for another day.
Sorry lads, but eh, what does this have to do with so-called "trouble" at a NL game?
It's mad that a LOI game is commentated on, in a language only a tiny minority of us can fully understand. Only in Ireland, as they say... :rolleyes:
What next, LOI commentaries in Latin????? :eek: :D
Mypost, judging from some of the posts on the Rovers MB, there's no need for those inverted commas. Between that, the carry-on after the Shels match and Roddy's ongoing sniping at the board, it looks like there's an imploding sense of unity at Rovers.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Rovers followers were indeed at it again, judging by accounts of people who were there.... :mad:
Well, good to see we're back on-topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
I don't consider Rovers fans fighting amongst themselves to be crowd trouble. As usual, fans of other clubs with anti-Rovers agendas, appear to have over-hyped the "incident" again. :rolleyes:
It was nothing but a bunch of Drunks looking for a fight.
After the game outside the Brandywell the same idiots were still fighting amongst themselve's.
The sensationalist 'Derry News' has a front page headline today 'Brandywell Battle' with a big picture, yet on the sports page they say that Derry had a 2-1 victory :eek: ..................some Newspaper :mad:
Lazy journalism at it's best, cnuts didn't even send someone to the match, must have watched it on TV and couldn't speak Irish, so he made up a few stories instead :(
The only people that the Rovers fans are really letting down are themselves.All this does is add fuel to fire that is the Rovers fans image and it's up to themselves to sort it out.
As regards the Irish language,it's a national disgrace that it's not more widely spoken.It's our national language FFS.I do think it will make a comeback with the ever increasing popularity of TG4 and through the Gaelscoils that are springing up all over the country.The Irish language is something we should be proud of and be able to inentify ourselves with because with our nation becoming more multicultural by the day a lot of the Irish ways may become a thing of the past.
We should also be teaching our kids other languages aswell as we are miles behind our european friends and it's time to catch up.
there really wasnt a lot to it, not even in the handbags column. two drunks got pulled apart by rovers fans and the stewards initially went in hard and fast on the peacemakers. the more senior stewards/rovers security arrived and calmed it down. a couple of derry stewards were escorted away before they made it worse.
the point wiseguy is that we did sort it out and the stewards came flying in anyway.
Agree, and the thick untsc causing the trouble are only costing their fellow supporters money via the 400 club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiseguy
On the language, I'm not anti it being compulsory but do have reservations about it counting towards university points. As someone who struggled with languages, despite being quite interested in them, I'm not sure it's fair that it can be so influential in deciding course and then career when it isn't required in that subject. For example, is it fair that someone doesn't get into medicine because they're not that good at languages?
It's even madder that a group of people can exhibit such antipathy and antagonism towards their own language/history/culture. That is indeed the type of thing that could only happen in Ireland...... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Any other country would have made a proper effort at revitalising Europe's oldest continuous written language 80+ years after they gained their independenace. Instead, we get a typical half-arsed botched effort and lots of bluff disguised as an official language revival, and then blame the language itself.
The Israeli's could take Hebrew - a language that hadn't been used in speech for 2,000 years outside of religious ceremonies - and make it the living language of millions within a couple of decades. The Welsh didn't even need their independence to put their language back on such a strong footing that a recent Economist article commented that the language there is in a real ascendancy, and that having Welsh is a significant contributor to your employment standing.
The irony is that I'm convinced that the Irish language would have been more secure now if the Republic was still under British rule (just like happened with Welsh).
Interesting view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roverstillidie
Given your view that what happened on Saturday was "not even in the handbags column", what exactly would you define handbags as?
And the general feeling on your forum is that our stewards did a reasonable job of calming it down. The main mistake they made in my view is that they let these guys into the ground in the first place.
But then again, its always somebody elses fault.......
Thats fair enough but some of your own fans should have given them a kick in the hole and tell them to cop themselves on.It's like they say "there's always one"Quote:
Originally Posted by Roverstillidie
Wouldn't have thought it that surprising that when a language is seen as a way of rebellion and a way of showing your independance that it is stronger. No doubt that's part of what's driving the Welsh language revival.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
This, I believe, is true, although I don't want that excuse to deflect away from the core issue: there was a considerable number of intensly drunk people at the game who had reached such a state that they were literally incapable of seeing the match in front of them. One individual stumbled down three rows of seats next to me. These idiots were always going to cause some level of trouble, it was just a question of when, and who would be on the recieving end - stewards, Derry fans or the rest of the Rovers support. I'm all for having afew pints before the game, and there's nothing wrong with being slightly under the influence going into the ground, but surely there must be some cut-off point, and way too many people crossed that point before last Saturday's game.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
agreed and that was precisely what happened, hence the 'fighting amongst ourselves' byline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiseguy
it was the initial intervention by the stewards that exacerbated the situation (leaning in across the hoardings pointing the finger etc), calmer heads arrived and the situation diffused itself.
again, no injuries, no arrests, just drunken fools.
its not a dying language at all.of the 3000 or so languages still in use, many are dying- mostly tribal languages in africa. most minority languaes will die out, but irish is strongly placed to survive over the next 100 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
the main problem was "how" irish was taught for years. today i think theres an improvement in that regard. one example is that 200 schools have recently taken ros na rún onto the curriculum and teaching irish trough that tv programme.ireland on sunday had an article on it, it gets 300,000 viewers now, as opposed to 14000 when it started.and the wybe network, which reached 2.9 million viewers, in philadelphia have bought the rights to it. its a big improvement on the old peig sayers etc courses
surprised no one has mentioned this before but, look at the differnce in how french/german/spanish is taught in secondary school, compared to how irish is taught. irish is taught along the same lines as english-poems novels etc.to improve the irish course the subject should be taught like the european languages
Modorators please take note...Quote:
Originally Posted by anto eile
What the fcuk has all this got to do with the title of the thread??? :mad:
so ****ing what. its an interesting debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by manic da hoop
do you be sitting in the pub and when conversation changes from one subject to another start giving out about straying off-topic??i doubt it. complaining about this on-line is just pedantic
You learn conversational and basic Grammer in primary school and then its poetry, reading and writing Irish in secondary!! (Well thats how it was planned)Quote:
Originally Posted by northside hoop
I loved Irish in school and still love it now! At the end of the day I think its was the teachers that were the problem moreso than the subject.. if a nice and good teacher was teaching you you'd prob love Irish like with other subjects..
I live in Galway city and still speak Irish every day in work and at home, even if it is just a cupla focail here and there.
It is far from a dead language, it seems to be getting stronger and more popular every day as Gaelscoil's and Irish speaking bars and resturants are popping up all over the place (well in Galway city they are)
Mods:: This thread should be moved to Off topic and the title changed
Eh, that's why we have a few different threads ongoing at the same time. The whole point being that you read and reply to the threads whos titles draw your interest - kind of pointess if it bears no relation whatsoever to what's actually being discussed in it. There's no way Ste would tolerate this over on the Rovers MB.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto eile
Gaelscoil's are becoming more popular because of the smaller class numbers compared to normal national schools. Certainly that's the reasoning with several parents I know who send their kids there - the language is a factor, but the quality of the overall education due to smaller class numbers is the over riding one (on the east coast anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eire06
Ya I agree that is part of the attraction in some places but it is not the main one there is now a new generation of people who want their children to speak our national language and regret themselves not paying attention in their school days to Irish and struggle with it now. They are encouraging their children not to make the same mistakes they made..Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
A lot of GaelScoils in citys now have class numbers just as high as Irish speaking primary and secondary schools and even go as far to have waiting lists for entry to the schools.. So small calss sizes cannot be a factor there
Look, Im not anti Irish language but I wouldve liked to have got the option of dropping it in secondary school just in principle and also as Macy suggested without it effecting what collage course i couldve done.
If given the choice I wouldve dropped it and concentrated more on a foreign laguage as it wouldve been more beneficial to me than speaking a language that ill never need.
Ended up getting a C1 in honours irish :) and only a pass in French but I could speak more french id say and if given the choice would prefer to be able to speak fluent french than fluent irish as it would give me an option to live in a non english speaking country.
However in an ideal world we would be having this debate in irish but hey thats life ;)
About 1% of people in this country speak Irish on an everyday basis. Irish is no use to us outside our country, so it's no wonder that people want to learn French/German/Spanish instead, languages that they may/will need to speak at some point. Irish is too hard, too complicated, with too many rules, it has too many different dialects on how you should speak it, and with it being compulsory in schools, kids don't want to know about a language they don't really need in later life. We must be the only country in Europe, where domestic football is covered in a language, that the locals don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eire06
In Dublin, practically nobody speaks the language on a daily basis. Quite what it has to do with "trouble" at a NL match boggles me. :confused: Talking about the Irish language is all very well, but it's in the wrong place. Split the thread.
From what I've seen of dublin lately not many speak English never mind Irish :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
you may not have had any practical experience but all lot of us do.. I regularly had conversations in Irish growing up and was sent to an Irish college every summer..Quote:
Originally Posted by northside hoop
Its up to your parents and teachers to help teach you the language and if you have a poor teacher or parents who don't feel it is necessary for their children to speak their native language the child is less likely to show any interest or make an attempt to learn it and try to incorporate it into their daily lives
When we "learn" irish from age 5 til 17-18 & still the vast majority of people can't speak a word of it shows a complete & absolute failure of the educational system. Imagine if the same happened with Maths?
Still we do about 5 years of french/german etc... & will have better oral skills.
According to Newstalk last week, there's more people speaking Chinese as their first language than Irish in this country. Pretty soon Irish will also be overtaken by Polish and beaten into fourth place. What's the point of Irish? Nothing against it personally, but in reality it's just a museum piece.
The Irish language requirement has been dropped by the police to recruit from immigrant communities, though they are offering Irish classes to new gardai in Templemore as an excercise in pointless tokenism to keep a dwindling number of fanatics happy. What a waste of valuable teaching time... I can't imagine Irish EVER gets used by the law unless some looper decides to be irritating by demanding all procedures are carried out in the language.
Thats it exactly - In schools,French and German and other languages are taught in a modern way that keeps kids interested , with Irish they are forced to learn things over and OverQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
Peig Sayers should be in a classic litrature or for people who do Irish outside of schools cos it has nothing whatsoever to do with teaching a language....If they spruced up the way its taught,you'd be surprised how quick it would catch on .....
I can add, subtract, multiply and divide. The vast majority of the maths I learned at school (and was quite good at) I'll never use, nor have I any wish to use. The education system fails in every subject (I've a degree in French which i would have got with or without doing french in school), so to single out the way Irish is thought is just the easy way out.
We'll cheer when England lose, we'll wear our national colours in lansdowne, but when the wafer thin cover is stripped back, the vast majority of this country have little or no interest or knowledge about their country and its identity.
The key mistake the state made back in the 1920's was to believe that the language revival effort was best left in the hands of schools and the classroom. In hindsight, that was always going to be a flawed policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by northside hoop
But the principle problem with the current state of the Irish language is - shock, horror - the Irish people themselves ! The people have to take a very large degree of the blame - not just systems and policies.
We don't learn and/or speak the language to any great extent ourselves, we don't apply any political pressure whatsoever to protect it (e.g. the Gardai no longer having to speak Irish is another nail in the language's coffin), and we don't go out of our way to support initiatives (financially, politically or morally) who seek to improve the standing of the language at any level. We just sit around putting the language down, then think we're great when people open a speech with the proverbial cupla focal, or some new public service or body gets named 'as Gaeilge' to remind us all that we're not actually English. Unless people's attitudes change, the language will continue to die as a living, working tongue.
Try taking a trip to Gweedore or An Rinn and you will see Irish being used by the 'law' :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philo
But sure they're outside the pale you wouldn't know about them :rolleyes:
Yes it's an interesting debate, but by this stage, it has nothing to do with football, so why is it still in the EL section?? :confused: Either split the thread, or move it to where it should be, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by anto eile
There's a fundemental underlying problem in Ireland as a whole that impedes any progress with Irish and makes it a torment. Awful grammar. We do not learn our grammar in English and have no notion of linguistic concepts, terms, structures, tenses etc. I myself haven't got a clue. Do you know how many tenses we have in English? Are you aware of them? Can you name them? Like most of the English speaking world we are badly equipped to learn other languages. For the most part we can only pick them up through being immersed in them and for the main part that is not possible with Irish. Irish is a partly inflective language which means it is fundementally different to English which makes it hard to grasp. We need better teaching of grammar in schools before we even attempt to tackle other languages.
You do seven subjects for Leaving Cert (or at least most schools do; we were given an optional eighth as well). Only six count. You can do badly in Irish but still get into medicine. In any case, you can apply that argument to any subject. Is it fair someone doesn't get into medicine because they did badly at economics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
But dont ye need a minimum grade in irish to get into some collages or do some courses that have nothing to do with the irish language (if definitely was a few years ago anyway)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Good point. Other states have college application systems which revolve more around the relevance of the secondary school subjects with regards to the subject you are applying for. In Ireland I think this only happens with Engineering where you get bonus points for Maths and also very loosely with subjects like Science where you must have taken and passed one Science subject to be allowed to do it at third level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
You need to pass Ordinary Level Irish to get into any of the NUIs (i.e. UCD, UCC, UL, UCG, Maynooth) but not for Trinity. Possibly not for the other colleges too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
I thought Irish had to be one of the 6, along with English and Maths (maybe just specific to the medical schools). Difference is you can drop economics, you can't drop Irish....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Dutch is no use to the Dutch outside Holland, Hungarian is no use to the Hungarians outside Hungary, etc., etc. and yet those languages thrive. In fact, most languages are no use to the locals outside of their country. That's an invalid argument, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Aw diddums. If something's hard, it's not worth doing? Have you ever stopped to consider how hard English is? No, because you pick it up naturally as a kid. Foreigners have trouble with it, though. Do native Irish speakers (over the past couple of thousand years) ever consider how hard Irish is? No, for the same reason. There are many many harder languages than Irish, but people - especially young kids - have a remarkable knack for learning. But then they get old and lazy...Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Kids are idiots. Kids at 14 or 15 don't have a clue about their future life. The old-fashioned view that kids should be seen and not heard is, to an extent, correct. If kids were let do everything they wanted, they'd have TVs in every classroom and would have MTV and Coronation Street as subjects for the Leaving Cert. Many people, when they've left school a few years, are very thankful for what Irish they have learnt. For that reason alone, Irish should be compulsory.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
BTW, can people stop going off topic asking for the thread to be split? It's been asked for about five times at this stage - PM the mod instead of repeating posts.
For some bizarre reason we are adding languages like Chinese, Arabic and Russian to the Leaving Cert which mainly end up benefiting minorities. If you look at the results in such minority languages there is a huge success rate as immigrant families are picking up A1s in these subjects with ease, while natives often struggle to scrape a pass in our alleged native tongue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philo
This is not a racist or immigrant rant, just something I observed when looking at results in these subjects.