Liking the look of these changes too.
Liking the look of these changes too.
been dominant the last ten mins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
It always does. I'd love to see stats how how many games we've started with two in midfield in the last four years, and what our outcomes have been in those games. And yet we've gone and done it again. I just don't get it. If you've got a weak area you need to reinforce it - ours is central midfield.
I knew praising the keeper at half time was going to come back to bite me...game was gone anyway i suppose.
Ah jaysus. Way to spoil a great game Kelleher...
Just lump it forward and we might get an equaliser
Tough to watch. We are a long way off from being anywhere close to qualifying for any major competitions.
Good attitude after conceding. Some really good fight and constructive play in parts. Shame to give away such a sloppy second. Positives in the overall defensive organisation, the chances created and putting them under pressure after going behind. Negatives in poor enough first half getting outnumbered in midfield and we manage to give away another gift of a goal. I guess some bad habits die hard.
Maybe the secret to our relative success from 1986 to 2016 was that we never ended up in a group with Greece.
wasn't too impressed by troy sadly. Taylor looked decent. festy a downgrade on chieo. a mixed bag. scales and collins look to be the centre half pair going forward, both played well.
Hari-kari stuff there at the end ~ First from Scales and them from Kelleher ~ Ended up a disaster from Kelleher.
Hopefully these players learn and learn fast !
Quite easy to sum it up. We remain way off the required standard, technically. And our ball control is woeful. On the other hand, Greece were well ahead of us in these two departments. That is why they won and we lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts !Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I'm more optimistic after this break than the previous one because I think the new man is starting to impose his style on the side. That said the individual errors are killing us.
I was annoyed with the commentary to say the Greeks were tiring after their efforts in Wembley, forgetting that we too had a game the same night.
If they can bring the same attitude into the Finland game we'll be alright.
Greece are just a lot better than us at this point in time. That's a better organised Greece side than Poyet's version as well.
We really have had some awful luck with group draws in the last few years. Drawing both France and Netherlands in the Euro qualification draw, followed by England in the Nations League draw was bad enough. But to draw Greece as a lower seed in addition to that both times was beyond unfortunate. You could hardly have hand picked worse draws for us in those two groups.
If we can find a way to stay in the B division in spite of the group draw we got, we'll have done well. But knowing us if it comes to a relegation playoff we'll get the team from the Sweden/Slovakia group. It's just the way it's going for us at the moment.
In terms of the on field stuff, if the penny hasn't dropped about resourcing midfield at this point then I honestly give up. If it's McCarthy still imposing his tactical expertise that's behind it then he should be left in Piraeus to find his own way home and not be seen again. But that's speculation obviously, and the buck stops with Hallgrimsson. Basically unless we're playing Gibraltar we have to have at least three in midfield in every single game. I know I must sound like a stuck record repeating this at this point but it's beyond a joke at this stage.
That's a really good Greece team and we played pretty well in parts. Been seeing a lot worse. If that sounds like faint praise, well the bar is low for a reason.
A one in 6 chance of drawing either Greece or Serbia as the Pot 2 team in the World Cup draw. One to keep an eye on, they'll be two of the worst draws we could pull from Pot 2.
Dan McD making an important point on Twitter tonight about staying in the B division. The two Auto-Q spots for Euro 2028 (yes we need to think that far ahead) that are potentially going to be distributed between ourselves, Scotland and Wales will likely be handed out based on Nations League ranking next time around. Wales and Scotland will both be in the B division, so we can only compete for them if we stay up - there's no way to finish ahead of either if we're down in C. So staying in B is particularly important this time around, if we're planning on being at our own Euros in four years time.
I think what I like the most about this manager is that the team always plays better in the second half. I also like that he makes good subs and makes them early enough to have an impact.
Contrast this with SK, who was always sussed out by the opposition manager at half-time, and stood around in the second half doing nothing while Plan A collapsed.
Nations League is everything for us for the next few years..Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
It dictates qualifying seedings, chances of play off places, and if this is correct, chances of playing a home Euros
This window, has been good... the team is slowly, building a structure, and getting some new players involved (Ebosele, Azaz, Taylor)..
I honestly couldn't care less about WC qualifying.. but we have to be at the Euros in 28.. we have to be
Pretty much this. When he took off Ferguson and added a midfielder after 55 minutes the game totally changed. From the 55th to the 90th minute we were the better team. The difference was night and day. Taylor did well coming off the bench but mostly we were just much more capable of overwhelming their midfielders, denying them time and space.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
That’s two games – this game and England – that have largely lost regarding initial formation/team selection and only playing two midfielders.
I thought Ferguson was fouled early on and it should have been a penalty. Also thought the deflection was unlucky and Kelleher saves it if there’s no deflection. Saying that, if you give up 20 shots then there’s always a decent chance that one of them will deflect awkwardly
I wouldn't be so blase about WC qualifying, AFAIU the seedings for the WCQ are based on nations league standings. Ireland are on course to be 3rd seeds in the WCQ draw should they finish ahead of Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insidetherock
Even though I hold Heimar in high regard I would have many critiques about how he has handled the first 4 competitive games. He has been slow (in the first 2 games) to take command of affairs. This evening I just could not get my head around the approach to this game against Greece. I assumed he would apply structure, as in structure based on observable ability v the opposition strengths.
Second place in this group was lost when Greece beat England, basically Ireland are just battling out 3rd and 4th with Finland and are ahead in that duel.
I think the fact that the midfielder we brought on was Jack Taylor is important in the context of the tilting of the game towards us. He is not a world beater. Nor are the Greek players man for man.
There was also a marked improvement in Cullen when Taylor was in there. And Molumby did well when he came on.
Hopefully a blueprint is beginning to form.
I suppose while that's true, we've had our luck in terms of not getting relegated to League C. The first season we were relegated but saved by a (sensible - the original format was silly) reorg. Then we had Bulgaria and Armenia in our group, easily the two worst sides in the second tier (yet we were still a goal away from relegation come injury time of the final game each time). I'm not altogether sure Finland aren't the equivalent this time - they've the feel of a golden generation gone over the hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Thought yesterday for all how the game changed dramatically after they scored - partly the change of shape, partly the Greeks letting up - we created very little in the last 35. Brady's set pieces were probably our number 1 threat over the window. That's a worry and I don't know how we fix it. Maybe Taylor can add something but we've so little in midfield it's scary.
Scales was good defensively yesterday but did get caught badly in possession twice; you can see why Celtic fans comment on it. Festy is very raw still and not sure he's a starting contender yet. Knight may as well but have been there - but unsure if that was on him or the setup or both. Whoscored rates half the team 6.1 or less - an awful lot of effort in the second half in particular, but no real quality. I think that's fair - and equally not sure how we fix it.
For all that this window had its feeling of improvement, we remain a really poor squad
Again, my take in bullet points:
• I’m taking away a glass that’s half full rather than half empty from this. If this was game 20 of a tenure that was characterised by softness and ineptness I’d take a glass three-quarters empty approach, but it’s early and the team is already showing signs that a new man is in charge
• That doesn’t mean there’s not much to criticise but the flaws were obvious and don’t need discussing
• If your keeper is going to have a brain fart and gift a goal to the opposition it’s best to do it at 1-0 down with 2 minutes left; otherwise CK was superb otherwise, again
• I think Collins and Scales are developing a good partnership and CK behind them adds to the mini-unit in that area
• There’s no point building a team around your best talent if he’s not fit
• The prolonged good spell in the second half was actually very good; Taylor & Festy really improved things. Extra midfielder and positional changes made a difference…
• Regardless of selection and shape, precision is lacking
• I think there was a very high “information content” in the game. There were parts where we were terrible and parts where we looked like a proper football team; a good manager will see this and adapt accordingly. What a shame we’re learning by doing in the NL rather than in the 6 months that preceded it.
• I’ve agreed with almost everything HH has said to the media about what he sees in the team so as of now I’m quite confident this group will morph into quite a potent team amongst our peer group
Yes I agree the previous two Nations League draws were kind - Wales/Finland/Bulgaria and Scotland/Ukraine/Armenia. Very fortunate draws for a supposedly unlucky manager, but the opportunities were blown which affected our seeding thereafter and has contributed partly to the awful draws we have received more recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
On Knight, I honestly think he could do a good job in the role that Taylor ended up in. A midfield of Cullen, Molumby and Knight might be our best under Halgirimsson. I'd be concerned that Smallbone isn't quite robust or dynamic enough and that we would be better off with willing runners like Molumby and Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It feels to me that we could go forward with the following side with additional options like Coleman, Omobamidele, Smallbone, Taylor, Azaz, Festy, Johnston and Parrott coming up behind them:
Kelleher
O'Shea Collins Scales Brady
Cullen Molumby
Ogbene Knight Szmodics
Ferguson
I think Scales has come out of this window as positively as anyone has. Are Celtic fans really picking on his distribution? Not on the social media feeds I see. maybe in the middle third of last season. I actually think his passing is a strength. He's not Luka Modric but he has a midfielder's poise on the ball and makes no more mistakes than you'd expexct from anyone imho. Kelleher for all his excellence committed exactly the kind of blunder you've been anticipating from Bazunu but which he has yet to get punishhed for. You'be be nervous picking Andy O because "he cost us a goal" yet Collins....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I didn't get to watch last night, how did Ferguson do? I really didn't feel it was worthwhile from an Ireland standpoint to start him in both games given how wrecked he looked after a half v Finland, was there any improvement last night?
In saying that, I do totally see the side that these two 60 mins or so, will do him a lot of good in the fight to get minutes at Brighton, and perhaps it will do both him and us the world of good by November. It just feels a bit off to me starting someone with such little playing time or fitness, when we have people who are fit and scoring, I'm not sure it's necessarily good for morale even if he is the best player, It'd be different if he wasn't a teenager new on the scene perhaps and the team makeup being built around him was long established with a clear hierarchy. I don't have extremely strong opinions on it, but I don't love the decision, I was a bit worried the 2nd start would be overloading him too, so relieved he seemed to get through it at least.
It'll probably end up being a short term pain for long term gain type decision, as he'll be far closer to being up to speed back at club level now but if I'm Idah, I'm already thinking I have no chance.
So true. The football from us in the second half was pleasantly surprising to watch. But for all our endeavour we created nothing. The cross into the box was our most effective weapon, yet we did not use it when the situations (3 or 4 times) cried out for a cross. Greece were very nervous at times in that second half and that should go down as a positive thing for us. However, as you say, we have so little in midfield (we've only been saying this for 20 years now) that it is scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ferguson was poor throughout. Missed a chance after 3 or 4 minutes and I knew then it would come back to haunt us / him. But any criticism of Ferguson or any of our other forwards must be tempered by the fact that we do not create chances for them to score. And that factor is the hole in our sinking boat right now. Score goals regularly and a myriad of other problems associated with this team go away.
I think he was poor tbh, but might have been awarded a penalty very early on. He didn't have much impact in a game where we didn't have too much of the ball while he was on the pitch. He's clearly a very good player but huffing and puffing while he recovers full fitness. Idah doesn't tend to make much impact in games like the first half either. Maybe leaving Cannon at home was a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
We were worryingly naive in the first half. Too narrow, too deep – allowed Greece to push their fullbacks high up the pitch to effectively play a 1-5-4 formation against us. Our entire back line was facing one-on-one situations, and our midfield was out-numbered allowing Greece to own the ball and to do as they wanted. How we got through that half without conceding was extremely good fortune.
I’m not sure if we changed anything for the second half as we were positionally exposed for the first goal – Greece actually had more players in our box than we do when the shot is taken. And it was just a simple ball through the middle to open us up. Agree we were better in the second half but is that because we were forced to change to try salvage something from the game? When we closed the midfield with an extra body and tried to be impact proceedings, we looked half decent.
So far under HH we have willingly given the initiative to the opposition rather than being proactive in what we can do to win from the off. All the good thought last night in picking an attacking team and motivating it with you want player X and Y to get in behind the opposition is lost when you don’t have a plan to win and use the ball to make that happen - leaving our strikers with a defensive and thankless task of chasing shadows. And as we are fiddling around to find our best team, we are trying to put too many round pegs in square holes and not getting the best of the players available to us. No surprise our best performances the past two games have come from players playing in their club positions. Those out of position are putting in frustratingly lukewarm performances at best.
HH does come across well and speaks a lot of sense. Maybe that is buying him leeway and time to enact his vision of being a team no one likes to play against. Right now, we are the opposite to that.
He's had a tough window & you can see the lack of a pre season in him & I hope that's all it is. Shadow of what he was a year ago. That said, we aimed too many worst of the old days absolute muck, sailing 70 yards in the air in his general direction balls at him as well. Hopefully a sharper player will arrive in the next window with improved service also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
They do a bit on the Celtic forums - and Poor Student has mentioned it here too. He's come out of the window reasonably well, sure. But I think it's still worth the note of caution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Strange comment. I didn't mention anything about Collins or Kelleher in that post, but I'm fairly sure I've said before that Collins has too many howlers in him, and I called out Kelleher at the time (for a blunder which, in fairness, is very unlike him). Ultimately I think a lot of our players aren't as good as we'd like to think they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But good to see Heimir putting his stamp on the team and not putting the black lad up front because he thinks he's Heskey, eh?
I just think you have a tendency to nit pick on things that aren't really problems. And yes, regardless of how you put it, I think HH is showing signs of moulding things to his preference rather than relying on O'Shea's (highly, imho) questionable judgment.
Wonder if that moulding eventually leads to dropping Ferguson. As much as he is our best striker, he’s not necessarily our best striker for a back to basics/ hard to beat team.
I think he should be thinking that in the medium term that Ferguson is likely to be the real star of this team but that in the very short term if he's not fit then his presence is actually hindering us a bit. I wouldn't start him in November's games if he hasn't played much at BHA.
Thinking more the need is for a target, which Ferguson isn’t – fit or not.
Ferguson had an unlucky window - goal wrongly disallowed against Finland which would have changed the whole conversation - and a peno denied against Greece. That said, he was huffing and puffing. Plus, he gets better service at Brighton. n
Parrott looked lightweight last night. Ebosele din't do much for me. McAteer did nothing special. neither did Johnston. On the plus side, Taylor had a real positive impact. We need more physicality in midfield and I'd like to see him incorporated more into the team.
Despite the poxy result, and the calamitous ending, I really enjoyed parts of that game and felt we were playing proper football for thee first time in ages with the press and the aggression. Long way to go for this squad and manager.
Going to be honest here, I'm slightly surprised to see you doubling down on that comment. Questionable is the word for it alright...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm not doubling down on it. I immediately admitted it was ill-considered and I apologised to a mod about it. You brought it back up and I reiterated that I don't trust O'Shea's judgment. That's a view I'll maintain until I have reason to think otherwise. OK?