Exactly. Attending games here is important as a pr exercise for the league though so should be encouragedQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
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Exactly. Attending games here is important as a pr exercise for the league though so should be encouragedQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I think he needs to come out and say he made a mistake and regrets making those comments and he has learned from that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
I don't disagree, I think what he said in the press conference is about as close as we'll get. Maybe there will be more questions when some Journos return from the Euro's.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
He addressed the Greenwood thing in the Virgin Media and RTE interviews, that should be the end of it.
Yeah, I think the Greenwood thing has been adequately dealt with now. He never picked him or even had the option to, so it's a non story really. Same goes for the timings questions, save those for Canham by all means and hold him to account, but it's not adding anything by asking the manager further about it. I'm more interested in hearing about his backroom staff and his thoughts on Irish players in future interviews, once he's had a chance to get his feet under the table.
I liked how he acknowledged that previous management had left a good foundation in terms of young players already with international experience. I understood that change will be incremental rather than sudden and that he’ll build on the good things already in place – and by implication improving the bad things. It seems like he has seen and understands what he’s inheriting. I was wondering if he’d be more Charlton-like who had a very particular project in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
That said, I seem to remember Iceland being very rigid without the ball (at Euro 2016 anyway), two perfectly straight banks of four that were just immovable.
I liked how he said he’s flexible on formation and I thought his comment about small margins deciding games at this level was quite astute. Many of Kenny’s games were decided at the margins, almost always in our opponents’ favour! Win the big moments, you win the big games.
It's far from dealt with - effectively they tried to brush his role in this under the carpet in a rather ineffectual way, blaming the Jamaican FA and saying that 'I absolutely don't approve of his (Greenwood's) actions' - this is not an explanation - it is a corporate fluff piece designed to facilitate the media in saying he has addressed the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Hallgrimsson actively pursued Greenwood in March 2024 - if he wasn't he would not have met him in an effort to recruit him. He now claims that he gave a political answer about his comments then - comments where he portrayed Greenwood as the victim, claimed that Greenwood had suffered trauma and that he deserved a second chance (let him without sin ...). This is not a political answer to a question - it is an attempt to whitewash the allegations against Greenwood in order to clear a path for Greenwood to declare for Jamaica.
A 'political answer' would have been for Hallgrimsson to say something like - 'I utterly abhor and condemn all acts of domestic and gender based violence and I give my full support to all survivors of such violence. While I recognise that the player mentioned in reports has had all charges against him dropped, I cannot, with a clear conscience, consider including a player with multiple accusations of gender based violence against them in past in any squad that I coach' - that would have been a 'political answer' and one which would have eliminated any issue of his attitude towards Greenwood.
However - while he was asked to 'clarify' his comments on Greenwood - it is notable that he was not asked about how he oversaw for six years a culture in the Islandic squad that saw multiple allegations of rape and gender-based violence against multiple members of the squad - allegations that ultimately saw the entire Board of the Islandic FA resign in 2021 because it engaged in a systematic cover-up of the allegations. Furthermore - in the aftermath of the allegations of abuse against female footballers that emerged two days before this appointment - the FAI should be asked if they made any attempt to find out from Hallgrimsson about his knowledge and his role from 2013-1028 while the rumours of rape and violence by players in his squad were circulating in Iceland.
Prepared to give the man a chance to prove his worth as a manager.
But IMO the timing of this is yet another major PR disaster by the FAI, we go 10 months with no manager constantly hearing a appointment is close then in the days leading up to two major games for the ladies team they decide to announce the appointment of the new mens' senior manager. Also in the wake of news of the abuse allegations by male FAI coaches within the ladies, their appointment ia a man who has spoke in what many would see as support of a player who has also faced abuse allegations of a partner.
It just seems like you are trying to stir **** here to be honest. He was asked about it, he answered the question to say the approach came from the Jamaican FA, not him. If they dispute that it would be re-opened but, as of now, they haven't, so I doubt we'll hear any more about it unless that changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
I have no idea why you think he should be asked about the thing in Iceland, to the best of my knowledge there is no suggestion that it has anything at all to do with him. Clearly there was an issue at board level there that was subsequently dealt with, if it involved him in any way I'm sure that would have emerged at that point.
To be honest it comes across as though you're just trying to stir things because he is the manager and it's not your pick Chris Hughton.
there will always be something the announcement will clash with so never a good time. hardly a "PR disaster" to be fair!! its not as if it was announced on the actual day of the womens game itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neish
Id actually argue that the announcement of the men's manager has brought peoples attention back to irish international football, including the womens matches, with the euros being on. It had hardly registered with me that the womens team match against england was on tonight until a couple of Irish international football stories popped up this week.
As JRG said his comments regarding Greenwood went deeper than what he talked about in the press conference. Comments where he showed sympathy towards what he has been through as if Greenwood was the victim in all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
So don't think JRG is **** stirring whatsoever and actually surprised that someone didn't ask further questions at the press conference.
He was asked about it in the press conference, and also by VM Sport and RTE. Possibly in the print media session as well. So he's answered it a few times now. I just don't think there's a lot more to add. He's said he doesn't condone anything the player did, and he never capped him or picked him in a squad, so what else are you expecting him to say? Should we ask him his position on the Icelandic Cod Wars as well while we're at it? Or should we maybe just be focusing more on his views in respect of the Ireland team...
I like the way he talks football - inc. that line about not starting from zero every time. Seems grounded and sensible.
I simultaneously dislike both 'ethicists on the ditch' (too easy, hindsight 20/20 and no one could ever match their moral standards) AND the macho/laddish culture in and around football. I hope he is not one of the lads in that sense. Can we say the same for culture within the the FAI? (Innocent question as I have no clue.) I think it needs a little more clarification on his part -nothing a decent PR team couldn't handle- but while keeping in mind that he has never been accused of anything himself.
I miss the Cod Wars !Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Bring back the Cod Wars !
Logged in to have a look at the reaction to the Hallgrímsson appointment, just read the 1st page and was reminded why I hadn't logged in since the Willy Sagnol 'discussion'.
I’d much rather we just focus on the football and this guys capabilities as a manager and leave these irrelevant side-notes alone. There’s none of us that never said or did anything wrong, so we’d be better off to stop trying to demand that standard from our football manager.
Drop the Chris Hughton nonsense - in purely footballing terms Hallgrimsson deserves a chance. This is not about his footballing ability - it is about his role and attitude relating to very serious cases of gender based violence against women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Unfortunately the reality is that Hallgrimsson did not provide an adequate answer about why he made the comments he did about Greenwood - his response was a corporate PR exercise, attempting to put the blame on the Jamaican FA and ignore the fact that he met with Greenwood and then his comments portrayed Greenwood as a victim.
Throughout his period of involvement with the Icelandic team rumours were circulating about the violence perpetrated by squad players against women - the gang rape of a woman in 2010 and the sexual assault and attempted strangulation of two women by another prominent player in 2017, being the most high profile of the accusations at the time. An investigation by the Icelandic government stated that there was a culture within the squad throughout the 2010s that violence against women was acceptable - a squad that Hallgrimsson was first assistant manager and then manager between 2013-2018. It lacks credibility that, given leading members of the Icelandic FA were aware of what had happened and covered-up the allegations, that senior members of the management team would not have some inkling with regards to the allegations - the 2017 allegations were reported both to the police and to the Icelandic FA when the violence happened.
Now - if Hallgrimsson had no knowledge of these allegations then fair enough - but in my view, if he doesn't make a statement on it then he should receive strenuous questioning by reporters and he needs to outline how he was unaware of these allegations when rumours existed and in 2017 both the police and the Icelandic FA had full knowledge of the allegations against an Icelandic player. On top of that - he really does need to drop the corporate PR act about Greenwood, put his hand up and say 'I was wrong to do what I did and to say what I did'.
Remember - the FAI appointed Hallgrimsson two days after several female footballers made very serious allegations against FAI coaches, demonstrating once again that those who lead the FAI have their head buried in the sand when it comes to the issue of the safety of female players and the threat of gender-based violence against female players.
I think what the big red guy is saying is all fair, I also understand the view of others who want to move on and enjoy something for once, just be weary of taking this stuff lightly is all I'd ask. I certainly don't aim to downplay it, I've already said my own piece early in the topic and have nothing further to add about it all.
In other news, an terview about HH for anyone interested. I haven't even watched it myself yet, maybe some questions will be answered courtesy of Raf ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt58...=RT%C3%89Sport
I will post about the variety of allegations surrounding HH once, and once only, unless the known facts change.
Mason Greenwood: This is the most significant allegation for me. It's difficult because on one hand the audio recording was stark, but on the other hand the case against him was dismissed and in theory he is entitled to be treated with a presumption of innocence.
He was definitely attempting to pass the buck to the Jamaican FA with the answer he gave earlier in the year.
I would like to know the context in which he was asked the question. It would be good to know if it was a pre approved question in a sit down interview or if it was sprung on him in a press conference? It reads more like the latter than the former, and I can see why he would want to give an answer that doesn't close of any options in that situation.
Historic Icelandic allegations: Some of the historic allegations I've seen mentioned regarding this go back to 2010, long before he was involved with their men's national team.
There is a serious accusation against Kolbeinn Sigþórsson from 2017. That seems to have been dealt with at the time in the Icelandic FA by Gudni Bergson rather than HH. There was no police action so I doubt it would have come across the managers desk beyond their FA briefly making him unavailable for selection while it was looked in to.
The initial allegations against Gylfri Sigurdsson were incredibly serious, but IIRC it eventually emerged that he was the victim of an elaborate blackmail scam and he immediately went to the police explaining what had happened.
In every case the allegations aren't that he did anything wrong in his own personal conduct, but that he might have handled things better. With the benefit of hindsight he might have done a few things differently , but at the same time none of his actions seem to have been totally unreasonable under the circumstances.
The timing with what is going on in the FAI is obviously unfortunate, but that's the FAI as usual.
Damian Duff: His comments are unsurprising, but I haven't been able to find anything where he talks about the HH appointment directly.
He's criticising the FAI for their obvious faults. It's well established what they are. Things are better than the were under John Delaney, but there's still a long way to go.
But while saying these things he was obviously itching for his old mate John from his playing days to get the job. John O'Shea was grossly unqualified to even be in the interim position he was in, but Duffer wanted him to be given the full time gig, presumably because he's an old friend. Damian was a much more credible candidate himself but made it incredibly clear he wouldn't consider taking the job.
That's exactly the sort of mutual back-scratching bull**** the FAI are famous for. Duffer wants to run with the fox and the hounds on this. It'll be difficult to take anything he says in future terribly seriously TBH.
Greenwoods Mrs happy to stay with him, got pregnant since and by all accounts they are happy. He's still employed in football and chances are a big club will buy him for big money this summer. Never been convicted of anything. Some of the stories over the years of our ex internationals treatment of women make you fall off your chair so I think if Greenwoods partner has forgiven him Hallgrimsson making a comment about trying to recruit him for the Jamaican team is completely irrelevant and quiet honestly I genuinely don't understand why it's even a story.
It's not the same as Sagnol thinking white players more intelligent than Africans, that's a belief he holds. And it's definitely not the same as Lennon threatening to slit the throat of his mistress.
This seems like a good appointment from a football standpoint and the tone on here as per usual is doom and gloom
Read this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
https://www.womensaid.org.uk/informa...e/women-leave/
Of course he is - he's still bloody good at it and for a lot of people, that's all that counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Look I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but we don't know the full story either. When Utd did an internal investigation they also cleared him. What happened never came out in court, but my point is mainly that trying to tie Hallstrimsson to it is nonsenseQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Also doesn't help when your father goes public defending your abuser because he saw his cash cow disappearing. Might as well have gotten himself a fedora and a blinged up cane for his interview. Feel sorry for the poor girl when you've got family like that who'll put money over your safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Aye, they "cleared" their £50m asset from being flushed down the pan, so that they've now preserved maybe half his value in the transfer market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
And have you ever wondered why? Clue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._selection.png
It's not a question of "tying him into it", rather it's a question of his distancing himself sufficiently from it. Which many people think he hasn't managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
None of which makes him unfit for the job, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from scrutiny, at least until he comes up with a better stance on the issue than he has thus far.
Greenwood is going to go on and have a career whether people like it or not. Clubs will sign him and managers will be compelled to pick him. It is what it is. In our case though we have hired a manager who never picked him or even called him up. So, again, there really is no mileage in this in the context of Heimir Hallgrimsson.
No doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
But we all know why that is, and it's precious little to do with natural justice or womens' rights etc.
All he had to say was "His eligibility is a matter for the Jamaican FA. If they decide he should be, then he will be available for selection, but if they don't, then we move on."Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Instead, he made excuses for him, such that he appeared to be painting MG as the victim in all this. :eek:
And that's without having scouted and interviewed him beforehand etc, which I believe he may have done? (Unsure)
Entirely agree. Whole thing stinks. I'm a season ticket holder and long time devotee. But I'm checking out for the duration of whatever this version of Irish men's football is. No thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
You are spot on here. Shows horrible judgement on his part . The fact that he is a good communicator males it much worse as there is no way he just got dazed by the question and fumbled a response.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
How some don't realize that this is why some people might still have questions for him regarding Greenwood especially given the week we've just had in Irish football with the sexual abuse allegations coming forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
We don't know the full story behind Greenwood. I understand women's relationship with their abuser more than I'd be willing to discuss here, but I simply think the whole situation is completely irrelevant to Hallgrimsson and it's coming across as we are always just looking for something to complain about
Let's be clear - on the allegations relating to the Icelandic players - I am not accusing Hallgrimsson of any wrongdoing or misdeeds in relation to the allegations about the actions of Icelandic footballers in the 2010s.
The issue I have is that it was clear that there was a culture in the Icelandic squad that made gender-based violence acceptable - and an Icelandic government report stated such. The reason that Board of the Icelandic FA resigned was not just because of one incident but because of this culture that existed - as late as 2021 when the Board resigned some players were still talking about the toxic culture that still existed that needed to be changed. It is suggested that the allegations of gang rape in 2010 are irrelevant - but the two players accused continued to play for Iceland under Hallgrimsson (one of them is still a regular in the Icelandic team). Furthermore, it is alleged that the accused players joked about the gang rape in the locker room to other players. The victim of this gang rape reported the assault to the police but was told there was no prospect of a conviction because the assault happened in Denmark. The player involved in the 2017 incident, which involved two women, was reported to the police the following day and to the Icelandic FA a couple of days later - both the police and the FA covered-up the assaults and the player continued to be picked to play by Hallgrimsson.
Again - I am not making any accusations about Hallgrimsson - but when players are joking about a gang rape, other players are complaining about the culture in the locker room, and rumours containing serious accusations of sexual violence against multiple players are circulating, I think it is appropriate for Hallgrimsson to be asked about what he was aware of and what he did or did not do during his tenure from 2013-2018.
And remember again - this is all in a backdrop this week, the week of his appointment, but more importantly, the week when several female players made serious accusations against coaching staff employed by the FAI.
Do you think that the female footballers who this week made accusations against FAI coaching staff, think that the actions and comments of the MNT manager appointed two days later are irrelevant ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't - and I think it is important to raise these questions.
The FAI Board should have been aware of everything that went on - including the resignation of the entire Board of the Icelandic FA in 2021 - and should have been far more cognisant of the potential fallout of appointing Hallgrimsson, particularly when, two days earlier, they were making apologies to players who were subjected to sexual harassment and coercion.
Would there be an appetite for two seperate Hallgrimsson threads, one for the discussion around the Greenwood quotes etc. and the other strictly confined to football? The discussion has been interesting and respectful so far, for which I am grateful, but of course some people don't have much appetite for it and may feel unable to discuss what they want to.
Hallgrimsson has never been accused of being an abuser, he has been asked and answered about Greenwood multiple times this week. He has no personal relationship with Greenwood and was not part of Greenwoods abuse. That's the end of it for me. Unless the man himself has abused someone or condoned it in Public I really don't know what more you want from himQuote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Please read what I wrote before firing from the hip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
And you are wrong about Greenwood - In March of this year Hallgrimsson met with Greenwood to try and persuade him to switch allegiance to Jamaica. Hallgrimsson then came out as an apologist for Greenwood, portraying him as the victim.
Now - you may want to brush this stuff under the carpet and minimise the impact of Hallgrimsson's actions and words - but in the context of the earlier accusations about FAI coaches this week, this is not going away until Hallgrimsson comes out and makes a proper statement, not a corporate PR fluff job, about Greenwood and also addresses the culture in the locker room that he oversaw while working with the Icelandic team.
This is similar to the stuff about Sagnol - and it astonishes me that these individuals, and those who advise them, cannot come out with the hand up and admit that they got it wrong, make a proper apology and commit to combatting similar attitudes in future. If Hallgrimsson came out tomorrow (as he should have done this week) and says 'I regret meeting Mason Greenwood, I now feel it sent the wrong message to the survivors of gender-based violence and I am committed to supporting those who are survivors of such violence from whatever sphere of society' - and then say - 'I accept that I could have been more attentive to the culture of the locker room while with Iceland, I should have been more proactive in finding out what happened and who was involved and acted accordingly, and I will work consistently in the future to ensure that any squad I pick with not manifest any sign of toxic masculinity and will support anyone affected by such an environment'.
Making a statement like that would demonstrate that Hallgrimsson recognises what is going on in society today, recognises that it needs to be addressed in a supportive way for survivors and it would immediately change the narrative, particularly in the aftermath of the very recent allegations.
Hypothetically, would people still be ok with this had Greenwood had Irish eligibility & our manager had met him & said those the things HH has gone on public record with ? Or if HH had said those things in relation to the player playing for us ?
I think there would be a very different reaction & perspective on this then & the fait accompli nature of this announcement does make me wonder if that is why it was done that way.
Either way, he is now our manager and he seems a decent enough person on first impression, although I feel for those genuinely & clearly upset by this because had it been Sagnol I would have dropped out for the duration of his tenure, I wouldn't have supported that.
Yes please. I'm dying of boredomQuote:
Originally Posted by John83
It's the same arguments just being rehashed.
I think it has merit yes & given its RLP & JRG mainly squaring up, neither will yield or stop & it will just circle itself. There's no new info & there won't be.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
I'd personally be much more vocal in my concern tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
I think it probably might make sense to split threads because I understand why most people don't want to engage with this
People just want something to talk about and in the absence of anything football related this is all there is.
If I were him I would make a phone call and organise a B international against Iceland with squads picked from the domestic leagues. It would show he's hitting the ground running and people would have something else to argue about from the moment the squad was announced.