Republic of Ireland V Belgium - Saturday, 23rd March 2024 - Friendly

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

Not knocking him at all. People on here get extremely defensive when any negative is thrown the way of bazunu. You cannot get away from what the numbers are telling you, whether you like it or not. He is the worst shot stopper in the championship. that is bad in anyones book and it should be a worry for us going forward as the drop in level from the PL hasnt helped him in this regard. Nobody is questioning his ability with the ball, even southampton fans.

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I'll just speak for myself here - I have seen dozens of goalkeepers playing for Ireland over the past 50+ years. Apart from Shay Given - we have two young, talented goalkeepers who are better than any other goalkeeper we have had during that period.

People can nit-pick about Bazunu and / or Kelleher - but remember we had goalies like Mick Kearns, Paddy Roche, Nick Colgan, David Forde, Wayne Henderson, Kieran Westwood etc - all decent lads who generally never let Ireland down - but none with the talent of Bazunu or Kelleher. We should be celebrating that these two goalkeepers are so good and are only going to get better.

Now - the lies, damned lies and statistics -

Southampton had an absolutely woeful defence last season - and that continued into this season. Southampton have conceded 47 goals this season - 20 of those were in the first 8 games of the season and another 15 in the last 7 games. In the 21 intervening games they conceded a total of 12 goals. The first 8 games the Southampton defence was a shambles and Bazunu was repeatedly exposed - in the last 7 games Southampton have hit a major hiccup, likely getting a bit ahead of themselves because of the good run they were on. Russell Martin's teams are not known for defending - they have the approach 'if you score 3, we will score 4' - and that is a major problem for any goalkeeper because they are constantly playing for a team that doesn't defend properly.

In contrast - WBA have conceded 11 fewer goals than Southampton. Alex Palmer is 27 years old - five years older than Bazunu and has spent pretty much his entire career bouncing around lower league teams on loan (and often as a back-up). I bet if you check the stats Palmer will have better 'stats' than Bazunu - but the reason for that is because WBA have a focus on not conceding goals. You put Bazunu into that WBA team and they would be at least in third spot if not in one of the two automatic spots. That defensive solidity is also the reason that if both WBA and Southampton are promoted, WBA are likely to do better in the PL - because Southampton will continue to ship a huge amount of goals because of the way that they play.

Bazunu has been excellent for Southampton this season - even during the recent hiccup. He makes at least one outstanding save per game, usually at a crucial time, and he has been one of the main reasons why Southampton are doing as well as they are (along with the form of both Armstrong and Adams).

Kelleher has also been excellent over the past few weeks (in 6 of the 7 PL games he has played). He too has made some crucial saves.

Let's celebrate the fact that these are two good goalkeepers - and again - I would give each of them a game in the friendlies.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I'll just speak for myself here - I have seen dozens of goalkeepers playing for Ireland over the past 50+ years. Apart from Shay Given - we have two young, talented goalkeepers who are better than any other goalkeeper we have had during that period.

People can nit-pick about Bazunu and / or Kelleher - but remember we had goalies like Mick Kearns, Paddy Roche, Nick Colgan, David Forde, Wayne Henderson, Kieran Westwood etc - all decent lads who generally never let Ireland down - but none with the talent of Bazunu or Kelleher. We should be celebrating that these two goalkeepers are so good and are only going to get better.

Now - the lies, damned lies and statistics -

Southampton had an absolutely woeful defence last season - and that continued into this season. Southampton have conceded 47 goals this season - 20 of those were in the first 8 games of the season and another 15 in the last 7 games. In the 21 intervening games they conceded a total of 12 goals. The first 8 games the Southampton defence was a shambles and Bazunu was repeatedly exposed - in the last 7 games Southampton have hit a major hiccup, likely getting a bit ahead of themselves because of the good run they were on. Russell Martin's teams are not known for defending - they have the approach 'if you score 3, we will score 4' - and that is a major problem for any goalkeeper because they are constantly playing for a team that doesn't defend properly.

In contrast - WBA have conceded 11 fewer goals than Southampton. Alex Palmer is 27 years old - five years older than Bazunu and has spent pretty much his entire career bouncing around lower league teams on loan (and often as a back-up). I bet if you check the stats Palmer will have better 'stats' than Bazunu - but the reason for that is because WBA have a focus on not conceding goals. You put Bazunu into that WBA team and they would be at least in third spot if not in one of the two automatic spots. That defensive solidity is also the reason that if both WBA and Southampton are promoted, WBA are likely to do better in the PL - because Southampton will continue to ship a huge amount of goals because of the way that they play.

Bazunu has been excellent for Southampton this season - even during the recent hiccup. He makes at least one outstanding save per game, usually at a crucial time, and he has been one of the main reasons why Southampton are doing as well as they are (along with the form of both Armstrong and Adams).

Kelleher has also been excellent over the past few weeks (in 6 of the 7 PL games he has played). He too has made some crucial saves.

Let's celebrate the fact that these are two good goalkeepers - and again - I would give each of them a game in the friendlies.

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the stats im using dont take into account play style. they account for the quality+likelihood of the shot on target the keeper faces going in.
but waffle away.

Mark Travers was a major factor in Bournemouth's 21/22 promotion. The best goalkeeper by a country mile in the Championship and was duly selected in its team of the season. Come Premiership time and, well, he was soon back in the Championship (on loan) - and shining again.

Southampton were atrocious in the EPL last season with Bazunu very much in the sum of their broken parts. Had Southampton anyone other than inept McCarthy then Bazunu would have been benched after 10 games.

So two young goalkeepers struggling badly at EPL level. Yet one is hyped and and the other is an afterthought, forgotten almost. Doesn't make sense. If Southampton are promoted, they'll need to make a big call on Bazunu.

Bazunu is integral to how Southampton want to play - he is effectively a goalkeeper and a sweeper. If they get promoted, they'll probably look at a backup keeper to Bazunu. Don't know the size of Southampton's budget, but an improvement on Bazunu that allows them to continue to play the way they do won't come cheap.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don't think data can be dismissed either but I think you can read too much into it too.

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I think if the stats are as bad as they are, then they warrant more than the almost blanket dismissal they're getting here.

Certainly I'd be valuing them over his performance in the Dutch game (which was indeed decent).

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Now - the lies, damned lies and statistics -

Bazunu has been excellent for Southampton this season - even during the recent hiccup. He makes at least one outstanding save per game, usually at a crucial time, and he has been one of the main reasons why Southampton are doing as well as they are (along with the form of both Armstrong and Adams).

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Speaking of lies and damn lies, eh?

The bit in bold is nonsense with nothing to back it up. (Indeed, most of your post is you saying things you want to believe are true in the face of all available evidence to the contrary)

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Bazunu is integral to how Southampton want to play - he is effectively a goalkeeper and a sweeper.

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I think this is a good point. What the modern game wants from a keeper has changed. There's a few posters on the Southampton forum who would rather they had a keeper who could save a few shots than make some good passes though (and his distribution generally seems to be considered very good).

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

Mark Travers was a major factor in Bournemouth's 21/22 promotion. The best goalkeeper by a country mile in the Championship and was duly selected in its team of the season. Come Premiership time and, well, he was soon back in the Championship (on loan) - and shining again.

Southampton were atrocious in the EPL last season with Bazunu very much in the sum of their broken parts. Had Southampton anyone other than inept McCarthy then Bazunu would have been benched after 10 games.

So two young goalkeepers struggling badly at EPL level. Yet one is hyped and and the other is an afterthought, forgotten almost. Doesn't make sense. If Southampton are promoted, they'll need to make a big call on Bazunu.

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It does make sense because Travers' and Bazunu's situations aren't comparable really. Travers is an old school type of keeper. Big lad, good shot stopper, big boot on him. He'll thrive at Championship level whenever he plays there, but his strengths don't suit what 90% of Premier League teams are looking for from a keeper.

Whereas Bazunu is a Premier League keeper in terms of his style of play. He'll take more risks, and will get caught out sometimes - and moreso in the Premier League because the standard is higher - but teams will accept that because of the style of keeper he is. Travers seems like a really decent lad, but his only battle here is with Max O'Leary for the third choice keeper spot in the squad.

The prevented goal stat went down -1.4 because of the Sunderland game on saturday. Im not sure how anyone could watch that and say he should save those goals.

Both unstobbale imho. A deflection right into the bottom corner & a worldie from Bellingham started well beyond any keeper's reach. What did the post-shot XG say in each instance?

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

It does make sense because Travers' and Bazunu's situations aren't comparable really. Travers is an old school type of keeper. Big lad, good shot stopper, big boot on him. He'll thrive at Championship level whenever he plays there, but his strengths don't suit what 90% of Premier League teams are looking for from a keeper.

Whereas Bazunu is a Premier League keeper in terms of his style of play. He'll take more risks, and will get caught out sometimes - and moreso in the Premier League because the standard is higher - but teams will accept that because of the style of keeper he is. Travers seems like a really decent lad, but his only battle here is with Max O'Leary for the third choice keeper spot in the squad.

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Whereas Bazunu is a Premier League keeper in terms of his style of play. He'll take more risks, and will get caught out sometimes - and moreso in the Premier League because the standard is higher - but teams will accept that because of the style of keeper he is. Travers seems like a really decent lad, but his only battle here is with Max O'Leary for the third choice keeper spot in the squad.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

It does make sense because Travers' and Bazunu's situations aren't comparable really. Travers is an old school type of keeper. Big lad, good shot stopper, big boot on him. He'll thrive at Championship level whenever he plays there, but his strengths don't suit what 90% of Premier League teams are looking for from a keeper.

Whereas Bazunu is a Premier League keeper in terms of his style of play. He'll take more risks, and will get caught out sometimes - and moreso in the Premier League because the standard is higher - but teams will accept that because of the style of keeper he is. Travers seems like a really decent lad, but his only battle here is with Max O'Leary for the third choice keeper spot in the squad.

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That's just a tissue of excuses. It's akin to the soft landing afforded forwards who don't score - they create space, run the channels, put forward pressure etc etc. Nice, but how about scoring a few goals.

Yes, the game has developed, roles have changed, evolved, whatever. But the goalkeeper's primary job is still to stop stoppable shots and command his area. Always was, always will be.

Give or take a clanger or two, Bazunu has come good in the Championship because Southampton are a top team there and, from what I've seen, the opposition plays deep against them. The pressure has been considerably reduced on Bazunu at a considerably lower standard of football.

I'm unconvinced Bazunu will not struggle again if Southampton are promoted - and I believe most Southampton fans are of the same opinion.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

It does make sense because Travers' and Bazunu's situations aren't comparable really. Travers is an old school type of keeper. Big lad, good shot stopper, big boot on him. He'll thrive at Championship level whenever he plays there, but his strengths don't suit what 90% of Premier League teams are looking for from a keeper.

Whereas Bazunu is a Premier League keeper in terms of his style of play. He'll take more risks, and will get caught out sometimes - and moreso in the Premier League because the standard is higher - but teams will accept that because of the style of keeper he is. Travers seems like a really decent lad, but his only battle here is with Max O'Leary for the third choice keeper spot in the squad.

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Wonder how Ireland will set up.....will distribution be as important moving forward?

I'd still have Kelleher and Bazunu over Travers but if we were looking for a pure shot stopper who could lump it long with the best of them, would Travers be above Bazunu in the pecking order?

This is not a serious question........I mean I really hope it's not a serious possibility......but.......fans do want us to get back to being hard to beat.....

What is Kellehers career/season xGA performance out of interest? Not challenging any of the perspectives here (outside of what i already have posted), just interested in how he fares over a similar data sample... I do remember seeing some impressive sounding stats after the Chelsea game.

I am with JRG on this one and give them a game each. Belgium and Switzerland are good teams who on current form should batter Ireland and keep the keepers busy and we will see how they handle the pressure.

Both are good keepers and its just the other 10 players that are the problem !

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Originally Posted by SkStu

What is Kellehers career/season xGA performance out of interest? Not challenging any of the perspectives here (outside of what i already have posted), just interested in how he fares over a similar data sample... I do remember seeing some impressive sounding stats after the Chelsea game.

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Well you can't have a similar data sample because of course Kelleher has played far fewer games, but fbref.com has him at +1.2 in 7 league games this year. It only does league games, so no League Cup final

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Originally Posted by Asterix

The prevented goal stat went down -1.4 because of the Sunderland game on saturday. Im not sure how anyone could watch that and say he should save those goals.

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I have a feeling it doesn't adjust for deflections, which seems a bit silly but would account for the first goal being so low. That's just a hunch though - and it would impact other keepers the same way of course, so at least the overall stat is comparable across keepers.

A flip side of that then is that the goal where he was caught in possession in his own box was given as PSxG of 0.99 because it was an open goal - technically true, but doesn't capture that the keeper had made a howler.

The second Sunderland goal would been a fantastic save, but then keepers do pull off fantastic saves from time to time. Part of the concern expressed is that his footwork isn't great (again see the l'Equipe article based on France's scouting last year), so he can at times not be in the best position to make the save in the first place. A step to the side can make a huge difference in some cases.

That last paragraph is just pure sophistry. Unless he'd been standing in the wrong position to start with he or any keeper wouldn't have saved it. Again, the fact that you don't just concede that it was a worldie of a goal and instead invoke your favourite French magazine comment or a bit of clever wordsmithery just tells me you're totally lacking objectivity in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I'll just speak for myself here - I have seen dozens of goalkeepers playing for Ireland over the past 50+ years. Apart from Shay Given - we have two young, talented goalkeepers who are better than any other goalkeeper we have had during that period.


People can nit-pick about Bazunu and / or Kelleher - but remember we had goalies like Mick Kearns, Paddy Roche, Nick Colgan, David Forde, Wayne Henderson, Kieran Westwood etc - all decent lads who generally never let Ireland down - but none with the talent of Bazunu or Kelleher. We should be celebrating that these two goalkeepers are so good and are only going to get better.

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This is probably the best thing written.We've got two excellent young keepers.


I wouldn't put too much weight into the numbers re Bazunu. I think we all need to recognise how basic and limited the numbers are at this stage. Most Premier League teams have their own proprietary systems, where the numbers look very different to the publicly available figures. I watch a lot of baseball - and stats models are a huge part of the game. Even over the last decade, things have moved on to the extent that everything we thought we knew was wrong. And baseball is relatively straight forward, a series of set pieces. The one thing that baseball struggles with is defensive metrics - if a fielder is good - and there’s acknowledgement in the sport that the numbers, while improving, just aren’t that reliable. And really what they’re attempting to understand is a lot easier than anything on a football pitch - and they have a history of analytics for over 30 years - and each team has dozens of data analysts working them. There’s the numbers and then there’s the interpretation of the numbers. I remember seeing a week or two ago that Haaland was 4th or 5th worse in the goals scored - xG, which is the strikers equivalent of what Bazunu is being tested on (people worse than him were Darwin Nunez, Ollie Watkins and Dominic Calvert Lewin). Yet no one would claim for a second that Haaland, Nunez, Watkins and DCL are the worst strikers in the league. Obviously, it’s not exactly like for like given strikers tend to be more influential in creating their own goals scored than keepers do in their own goals conceded) - but it does nonetheless quickly illustrate the limitations in the data.


As for whoever said ‘Kelleher has played a handful of games again this season’ - Kelleher has started 20 games this season. Of all our premier league players, that puts him 4th overall for starts in all comps.


O’Shea 27
Collins 23
Ogbene 22
Kelleher 20
Ferguson 18
Cullen 15
Omobamidele 10
Doherty 9
Egan 7
Coleman 4
Travers 3 (for Bournemouth)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

That last paragraph is just pure sophistry. Unless he'd been standing in the wrong position to start with he or any keeper wouldn't have saved it. Again, the fact that you don't just concede that it was a worldie of a goal and instead invoke your favourite French magazine comment or a bit of clever wordsmithery just tells me you're totally lacking objectivity in this discussion.

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Sarcasm and bluster are sure-fire ways to show you don't really have a point Stutts.

The second Sunderland goal was a great strike and I don't blame him at all for not saving it. But the reality is, over a large enough data sample, those shots are sometimes saved. That's the point of big data - to get away from the obvious howlers and work out how often he saves the (to use a phrase you've used before on here) the 30/70 shots.

Kelleher has been excellent, playing behind a very good defense, but hes been excellent.

Bazunu is constantly good over the course of a few seasons now, while playing behind an awful defense. Hes been good in an Ireland shirt too and has been rightly our #1 to this point.

1 game each in this window seems fair enough to me. Maybe even the same in the 2 summer games. Then we take stock where both are going into the NL games. If we are in a status quo where Kelleher his back to collecting splinters then Bazunu will be our starter most likely.

Kelleher has done enough these past few weeks that he is good enough to be a 1st choice goalkeeper for someone so I hope he doesnt go back to the bench next season, but its very possible he does.

We are going to be having this debate for the next 10 years most likely. Some posters could do with putting away their biases.

I like to see Kellegher play the upcoming friendlies. We have plenty of evidence of what Bazunu can do - even if we can't agree what that is here - and it's of maximum use to an incoming manager to see the qualities of a viable alternative. It might also give Kellegher an additional chance to build his name in preparation for a move that would see him play regularly, which is good for us. There's little enough upside to seeing another Bazunu cap in the friendlies. If these were competitive games, I'd be much more wary of changing things up.

Belgium to announced their squad tomorrow. If that 10am is CET, then it's 9am here

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Originally Posted by John83

I like to see Kellegher play the upcoming friendlies. We have plenty of evidence of what Bazunu can do - even if we can't agree what that is here - and it's of maximum use to an incoming manager to see the qualities of a viable alternative. It might also give Kellegher an additional chance to build his name in preparation for a move that would see him play regularly, which is good for us. There's little enough upside to seeing another Bazunu cap in the friendlies. If these were competitive games, I'd be much more wary of changing things up.

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I think that leaving out Bazunu for both games would give a bad message to him tbh. Whatever people think hes been our 1st choice and players want to play. It would be poor form for an interim manager to p1ss off the player by leaving him out completely

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Sarcasm and bluster are sure-fire ways to show you don't really have a point Stutts.

The second Sunderland goal was a great strike and I don't blame him at all for not saving it. But the reality is, over a large enough data sample, those shots are sometimes saved. That's the point of big data - to get away from the obvious howlers and work out how often he saves the (to use a phrase you've used before on here) the 30/70 shots.

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My point was pretty clear. And we're not talking about 30/70 shots here. That was not even a 1/99 shot.

"The second Sunderland goal would been a fantastic save, but then keepers do pull off fantastic saves from time to time. Part of the concern expressed is that his footwork isn't great (again see the l'Equipe article based on France's scouting last year), so he can at times not be in the best position to make the save in the first place. A step to the side can make a huge difference in some cases."


Your language was intended to suggest some plausible fault might to some extent be to blame. It just wasn't. Find another example - there are no shortages of them.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

I think that leaving out Bazunu for both games would give a bad message to him tbh. Whatever people think hes been our 1st choice and players want to play. It would be poor form for an interim manager to p1ss off the player by leaving him out completely

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FWIW, I agree with this. Give them both a game. Maybe squeeze in a half for Travers if needed, though that may be a bit much over the window. They're all still too young for us to have decided on our long-term number 1 yet. (I include Travers in that, though obviously his loan recall has been quite disappointing)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Your language was intended to suggest some plausible fault might to some extent be to blame.

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No it wasn't. You just want to attack the poster rather than the post now. (Your comment on l'Equipe being especially petty)

I really don't, I was only arguing against what you wrote. I actually quite like you given how far back we go!

What's the general feeling about the players caring about this one?

Do they even want to be included?

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

As for whoever said ‘Kelleher has played a handful of games again this season’ - Kelleher has started 20 games this season. Of all our premier league players, that puts him 4th overall for starts in all comps.

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7 in the PL
1 in the FA Cup
6 in the League Cup
6 in the Europa League

It is interesting that all the discussion on this thread has been about the two very good young goalkeepers we have.

As has been pointed out - the problem isn't the goalkeepers - it is the other 10 positions on the pitch (well 9 - because of Ferguson).

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

7 in the PL
1 in the FA Cup
6 in the League Cup
6 in the Europa League

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Yep. I included all starts in all comps for all players. I think obviously only himself and Evan are in European comps, which would be pretty valuable experience.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

What's the general feeling about the players caring about this one?

Do they even want to be included?

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I think this is a good question tbh. IF the players are told that some or all of the staff will be staying on with new manager I think it matters more. If all the interim staff are back out the door after these 2 games I wouldnt be surprised if we had a lot of pull outs

Belgian squad named

Ireland squad announced at 12:30

Press conference on YouTube at 1:45

Just a guess ya know but I'd say Szmodics might get a call up.

Thought I would post my ideas for a squad before JOSH reveals his. I don't think I've missed any injuries but no guarantees


Bazunu, Kelleher, O’Leary
Coleman, Ebosele, Doherty, Collins, Omobamidele, O’Shea, O’Brien, Scales, Manning, Garcia-McNulty,
Hodge, Cullen, Smallbone, Knight, Moran, Ogbene, Connolly, McAteer, Johnston,
Szmodics, Ferguson, Idah, Cannon, Parrott, Obafemi,

Republic of Ireland Squad - Belgium & Switzerland

Goalkeepers: Gavin Bazunu (Southampton), Caoimhin Kelleher (Liverpool), Mark Travers (AFC Bournemouth)

Defenders: Seamus Coleman (Everton), Matt Doherty (Wolverhampton Wanderers), Nathan Collins (Brentford), Andrew Omobamidele (Nottingham Forest), Dara O'Shea (Burnley), Liam Scales (Celtic), Jake O'Brien (Lyon), Robbie Brady (Preston North End), Festy Ebosele (Udinese).

Midfielders: Josh Cullen (Burnley), Jason Knight (Bristol City), Will Smallbone (Southampton). Jamie McGrath (Aberdeen), Callum O’Dowda (Cardiff City), Mark Sykes (Bristol City), Finn Azaz (Middlesbrough), Mikey Johnston (West Bromwich Albion).

Forwards: Evan Ferguson (Brighton and Hove Albion), Adam Idah (Celtic), Michael Obafemi (Millwall, on loan from Burnley), Sammie Szmodics (Blackburn Rovers), Chiedozie Ogbene (Luton Town), Troy Parrott (Excelsior, on loan from Tottenham Hotspur).

Good squad, fair play to O'Shea bringing Azaz in rather than Moran, which was the obvious call last time around as well.

Szmodics and O'Brien deserve their call ups also.

No McAteer - wonder if there's an issue or he just wasn't picked?

Just looking at the club names alone tells you where we are in terms of midfielders at the moment. Whereas the defence is a list of clubs across European top divisions, plus a somewhat out of place looking Robbie Brady - who is presumably in there as a marginally less worse option than Manning.

And I stand by my view from a few days ago that plenty of mid rank countries around Europe would be delighted to be able to pick the six strikers we've named there.

Would like to see O'Brien get a game. Kinda surprised at Robbie Brady's inclusion - is he playing well these days?

The prospect of Szmodics and Ferguson up front is very exciting... Johnston feeding the pair on one side and Ogbene causing trouble on the other.

Squad details

Couple of interesting calls there. Brady for Manning, and no Alan Browne? Azaz hasn't been a starter for Middlesbrough recently so arguably fortunate to be included.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Couple of interesting calls there. Brady for Manning, and no Alan Browne? Azaz hasn't been a starter for Middlesbrough recently so arguably fortunate to be included.

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browne injured. manning not fancied by another manager? maybe kenny knew a bit more than the rest of us (me included)

the midfield is so so poor. really need 2 or 3 players to spring up from anywhere

Didn't know Browne was injured. Manning is just not a good defender, but has qualities going forward. Presumably he wanted another experienced head in there with the choice of Brady.