Sure if he's even struggling to make an impact in PL2 he's obviously not good enough.... never mind that his team don't play in that league, if he was good enough he'd be making an impact!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
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Sure if he's even struggling to make an impact in PL2 he's obviously not good enough.... never mind that his team don't play in that league, if he was good enough he'd be making an impact!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
His team will go down as one of the worst teams to ever play in the Premier League but feels the need to publicly put down a kid making his debut. Great man management from Wilder. Could have talked with Curtis in private when you consider how Sheffield United have stunk out the PL this season.
Linked with a loan move to Peterborough United.
I think its a disappointment he wont be starting in the Championship this season. Going to L1 wouldnt have been the plan Im sure when he moved over last season.
Confirmed now, season long loan.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
Looks a good move if he gets regular games. I'm sure Crafty can report back in due course?
Cian Hayes is there too, signed in the summer and a dual Fenian sounding chap from the north, so yeah I'll swing down and bring the news, until it gets cold and the CL comes on midweek anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Thank-you for your service.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
I went along to Peterborough / Huddersfield today, mainly in the hope Curtis would start and having been given the two shirt, he did.
Started RB in a four.
His first real involvement was a really horrible chipped panicked pass to him by a midfielder trying to break who had run into a blind alley and got turned round. He was inside his own penalty area and by the time it reached his chest, he had two Huddersfield players really close and his first touch had to be perfect, it was and he turned the play away from goal, kept the ball and edged toward the sideline, no support and two players on him, kept really good close control until one of them made contact, he went down and the ref gave the free. The stadium erupted in applause and he had got his first impression moment spot on. It was a really poor pass.
After that he tracked a run right across the box to his far post, the ball arrived at the player he was tracking and he blocked what was probably a certain goal, it was about seven yards out. In between these moments he was good on the ball, playing good forward passes which were getting his side up the field and he hit one really admirable diagonal right into the chest of his opposite side midfielder. Everything was going well and then this happened
He got left one on one with his winger, no players around them and plenty space down either side of him, the winger was left footed and likely to go on his outside, and he did & when he did Curtis got scorched, my opinion without the benefit of replays is he stood facing the winger square on and wasn't prepared for the guy going either side. Anyway, the guy had time for a cup of tea before putting the cross in, three in the middle and he missed them all, still 0-0.
Huddersfield now looked to load that flank and get at him, soon after they got another cross away from that side, he was five yards from it and didn't look to close it. Five minutes later he watched another cross go in from his position & this time it was 0-1. Soon after it was 0-2 but this one wasn't on him at all.
The remainder of the half, I noticed he didn't continue to seek the higher risk forward pass, he went square across the back four and the HT whistle was a welcome one. Early second half his side looked like they might fold and take a hiding, it was all Huddersfield, he made another goal saving challenge inside the six yard box and conceded two back post corners under severe pressure, he stood up well to be fair.
On 58 minutes he went in for a challenge and stayed down, held his leg up as though looking for cramp help, then got up and was getting into position for the throw when the board went up with his number, his day was done. He got applause as he walked by the home end but it was more sympathetic for a kid who'd had his eyes opened kinda applause.
He did certain things very well, on the ball he was really impressive and he only gave it away once that I recall. As I've said, several interventions which showed good instincts, but the crosses cannot be that easy, your RB can't have a rep for coughing up free crosses & in L1 teams will look to cross much more than they will try to play through you.
To add some context here, today he was part of a completely new back four, not ideal for a youngsters first loan at all. The CB playing next to him is a 22 year old who is probably squad filler, hasn't broken through at all and played because a signing hasn't been completed during the week and another signing is injured, he also had a really poor game.
In front of him was a really attack minded winger who didn't overburden himself helping out. A lot of the more experienced players, some given better deals in summer to keep them, Randall / Collins particularly who were both excellent last season, were both awful today. A nineteen year old Man City midfielder on loan who the club chased all summer was also poor.
Chris Conn Clarke ( Antrim ) was a heralded signing, had his choice of L1 and some Championship clubs, he did nothing and his two sights of goal resulted in weak finishes into the keepers hands. Cian Hayes came on midway through the second half and did very little, sliced one shot more than the width of the goals wide. He also looks like he's twelve.
So plenty others had bad days, but Curtis will have to tune in positionally to those crosses and stop them going in & he needs to do that quickly. Otherwise he was ok out there.
I do think of all the deficiencies a fullback can have in his game, that’s one of the easiest to coach once it’s been identified as a weakness
Thanks a mill for that, Crafty. Was he exposed for pace? Is that a concern? It's one I sort of have.
That's a really useful report actually. Only one game obviously but it kind of reinforces the main concern I have about Curtis. I don't think he's quick enough to play full back at a high level. I think he'll end up playing centre back - as long as he's considered tall enough (I believe he's the same height as Eiran Cashin - basically right on the edge of what's considered tall enough for a centre back). Kind of the same hole Lee O'Connor fell into. I think Curtis is a better player than O'Connor, but I also think physical limitations he has no control over may limit his eventual ceiling.
The first one was more a standing position error in my fans eye opinion, he was square on & you'd usually see FBs half turned ready for the chase. The second two he just wasn't close enough in starting position to disrupt the crosser. I wouldn't term either as being beaten in a foot race & he didn't get tested that way yesterday, a straight race. The winger got away from him on the first one though yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
They are at home next on the 31st to Wrexham & Jimmy Mc down that side. If he stays in the team I'll go again.
Thanks for that. Things he can improve quite easily with good coaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Started away at Oxford at RB again tonight & it did not go well, was at fault for the goal to make it 2.0, low ball across the box from the left, should have been cut out but wasn't and should never have reached the back post but it did & back there he'd had all the time in the world to pick up the only Oxford player anywhere in the vicinity & not allow a tap in. He left the guy with a tap in to kill the tie.
Seemed animated, frustrated throughout, shouting at team mates & waving his hands around plenty. Was booked on 65 & subbed straight away. Taking some flak on the forum.
Last years back four all got good moves, one to Southampton for ten million & was the only England u20 not at an elite academy. One to Sheffield United, 2.5 million, one to Hannover in Germany and the other is at Oxford & in the Championship, so there is expectation at the club because they were decent. So far it's two losses, four conceded & no goals scored.
Hopefully this gets better but it does need to. Him & the whole group I mean. Be interesting if he starts again Saturday, but Cian Hayes might, he was excellent tonight.
It's a big step up from Pat's to Peterborough, unfortunately not going over until 18 means he's playing catch up already. Hopefully Peterborough give him a decent chance over the course of the season, or he could fall further behind.
Playing mens football at a poor level at a young age in a poor coachng environment has the disadvantage of ingraining poor skillsets which are difficult to change later on. Its like the Lad who plays loads of golf with his dad but doesn't have a structured golf academy pathway , he is often "better" at a younger age but passed out by his peers over timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Funny because Umeh and O'Mahony who both went over only a year earlier could barely get a kick in the first division and yet are seen as viable options in the PL this season yet Curtis is slogging it out in league 1 despite being a regular in the premier divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Nothing to do with the level of coaching its sadly, like many before him, the result of the lad making a poor career decision so must suffer the consequences for it, whoever told him Sheffield United was a good move needs to be shot.
They in turn haven't done him any favours with the loan destination, the other defenders at Peterborough are as follows ;Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
18 - loan
22 - academy & struggling so far
18 - signing
23 - signing from Swedish D2
23 - signing
22 - academy
The division is a bear pit & they are all kids or academy lads getting their first real run. The club do this, it is their model, these lads do improve and move for big profits, whether it is the best place for his first loan and extended exposure is another matter, because he's not theirs and any profit won't be either, so what's their motivation to keep persisting with him & why didn't he or Sheffield United seem to weigh this aspect up ?
All that said, about LOI coaching, mens ball, academy ball, his errors so far have been, body shape wrong & allowing a cross which Huddersfield scored from, too far from the crosser two other times, and being asleep at the back post last night. They are basics, he shouldn't be getting caught like this IMO & being at Pats doesn't explain it away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Well I suspect the reason he didn't weigh up those factors is the same reason why he signed for Sheffield United in the first place...he was poorly advised or doesn't have his head screwed on.
A lot of people using the coaching he got at St Pats as an excuse seem to conveniently be forgetting one simple fact...he's spent over 6 months at Sheffield United now, surely by now they are the ones who have to accept a large share of responsibility for why he hasn't progressed, and if he hasn't progressed why did they send him on loan in the first place? If they'd transformed him in 6 months we'd be praising Sheffield United to the end and back but when things haven't gone as well its all St Pats fault...I'm noticing a pattern here.
It's not worth your time. Sometimes it's better to say nothing as there are people on here who love to jump on anything negative towards the League of Ireland at any given opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
The league of ireland is poor though that's the reality. It's good entertainment and the crowds are good so that's a real.positive but the quality is poor. That doesn't matter as long as we aren't depending on the league to provide all.our international players. If the best % still move to Europe at 16 into good academies then I think the mix of lads getting opportunities at 16 or 17 in the league here combined with the european lads who have a higher quality ceiling will work well internationally for us at senior level.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The problem 10 or 15 years ago was that youth football was getting so many players hoovered up by English teams just to make up numbers in academies that league of ireland clubs had very few young players of sufficient quality to bring into their first team squads so lads who would have benefited from playing league of ireland at 17 or 18 missed out
That "poor level at a young age in a poor coachng environment" seems to be working okay for our underage international teams though.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
The playing level of the League of Ireland is not top tier European football, but the constant scoffing at the level of coaching underage players get here compared to European counterparts is what irks me. It wouldn't matter if any young player coming out of an English academy has a rough start to life in English senior football. They need to be given time. But the immediate writing off of a young player who has come out of the League of Ireland seems to be something a group of posters on here revel in.
I dont think anyone is reveling in it Nigel. Yes the LOI is serving the underage teams quite well but the gap to senior football is enormous. Lads are getting the benefit of playing with senior players that seems to be helping at u17 and u19 level but the benefit of that playing time, as of yet is not carrying across to senior football. Seeing the likes of Ross Tierney, Dawson Devoy, Darragh Burns, Johnny Kenny coming back to the league after not making any impression across the water has taken the wind out of the sails a bit for how good we think some of these young players might be. Andy Lyons for my money has been the best player in the league in recent years and one I really thought could be an Ireland squad fixture by now, but hes in obscurity.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I wish we had a conveyor belt of players every season that we were seeing generating money for LOI clubs by going away and excelling but its just not happening and the results in Europe are also showing that the league just isnt in a great place from a talent point of view at the moment.
The quality of the league really doesn't matter at his age, what matters is he's playing games at senior level. And like I said its just being used as a convenient excuse because the fact of the matter is he's been at Sheffield United for 6 months now so the blame lies with them as to why he hasn't kicked on.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
As Nigel also said, if the level of coaching the LOI's get is so poor why are they able to compete consistently with their European counter parts at underage level? Surely if this is true Ireland would be in pot 4 at u17 & u19 level and getting battered every year at these respective level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Well the likes of Tierney, Devoy, Burns and Kenny each made horrendous career decisions and are now facing the consequences for those decision, something Curtis has unfortunately followed also. For me that's the biggest concern more than anything, whatever about how good or bad the players are what is clear is they are not giving themselves the best chance of declaring with their career decisions.
The only one I'd make an exception to is Lyons and what was encouraging in his case was he was able to seamlessly transfer over to the championship and perform, sadly though he's had a lot of injuries to deal with including 1 serious one and I believe his father sadly passed away which ofcourse he was given time off for.
I dont think Europe is evidence of a lack of talent, its more evidence of a lack of money...the reality is experience his huge in Europe and LOI club just cant afford international players that clubs even like Celje can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
We cant keep blaming the clubs that players go to for them not succeeding. If theres a common thread of players not being successful across multiple clubs, then maybe its just the players not being good enough rather than the clubs fault. Personal responsibility has to be a big factor.
As for Europe, Celje is one thing, but we have struggled with Gibraltar teams this summer.... thats not acceptable
In this instance I think you can, I remember every one of those moves and I was not surprised in the slightest that everyone of them failed, it was obvious just looking at the background of those clubs. They were either unstable (MK Dons) or had no clear pathway to first team football (Celtic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
The one I was disappointed in was Tierney as he did get semi regular game time there after he moved but towards the end of his second season for some reason he just fell out of favour.
I would agree about personal responsibility plays a role here, these players need to have a better understanding of what clubs to sign for and what clubs to avoid and sadly most of them haven't judging by the clubs they've signed for.
I dont mean just Celje, what I'm getting at his most clubs in Europe are able to afford International players (even if only a few) whereas Irish clubs just dont and even if they sign an international they tend to be from a pot 6 nation or of similar quality. I think especially against clubs like Gibraltar sides this can be especially important as these sort of teams their weakness can be their strength and make them challenging sides to open up, that's where you need experience at this level which the likes of Derry and Shelbourne just dont see to have. For all there struggles St Pats have had in the league it comes as no surprise to me they are looked far better in Europe than Derry and Shelbourne, its because they have plenty of players who've done it before and a manager with experience in this regard...its not a coincidence.
Im sorry CSAD I just disagree with your theory fundamentally. Too many players from the LOI have just been unsuccessful with moves to just blame the clubs they go to. Other players at those clubs play, you have to be professional enough, strong willed and good enough to beat out the man in your position to get into the team. Its just not happening.
Danny Mandriou is another example, a brilliant LOI player. I was convinced Mandriou would go on to get Ireland caps, and he did seem to be going pretty well initially, but now hes a free agent and has had his attitude questioned by Mark Kennedy while he was manager. Jack Byrne was another, I dont know how many times excuses were made for him over the years, super footballer, but not the most professional in the world.
They have been the success stories over the years like Kevin Doyle and Seamus but they are much more the exception than the rule. Ronan Coughlan is doing well unexpectedly I would say and hopefully he progresses a bit but lets stop blaming English clubs for LOI players generally not doing well over there, they get the same chances as any footballer that joins their same club.
And back to the initial point that Nigel said that people are reveling in the lack of success, I honestly think its the exact opposite. I find it infuriating. I want all these lads to go over there and be brilliant, and when I hear stories of players like Mandriou having attitude issues or whatever it drives me nuts, because that is the sort of thing that may block the English path for future LOI young players
League of ireland level.up.to.under 17s is a very good standard because teams are xoaxhed at that level to keep the ball and be creative just luke academy football in the UK. The problem is when the best of those players at 17 jump up to senior league of ireland the level of coaching and tactical awareness is not at the level of senior football in the UK. The under 19 league drops off in standard because the best players from 17 on are invite the senior sides now. At under 19 level internationally we tend to have UK based players either who have moved at 18 like o mahony and umeh or are of irish heritageQuote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
Probably because too many have made bad career decisions, it's been a constant issue for plenty of Irish players in England so not really a surprise its happening in the LOI also. I even look at players like Devoy and Tierney, when they resign in the LOI rather than sign for a team challenging for the title they happily sign for a their old side Bohemians that are nowhere near the top...that told me all I needed to know about these players, no ambition to develop as players just happy to go where they are comfortable which is probably why they are back in the LOI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
In Mandriou's case he's a free agent by choice as he was offered a new deal by Lincoln and he rejected it. There is talk atm that he may be off to Steaue Bucharest and he has had contact about declaring for Romania which he's seriously considering, which probably explains why he hasn't re-signed for Lincoln. But this whole situation is up in the air but supposedly that's a big reason why he's still a free agent. The player I feel bad for most of all is Andy Lyons, he's a player that I feel has career ambition, even leaving Bohemians for Rovers and took all the heat that came with that, did well and then got a move to the championship where he didn't look out of place at all. Sadly injuries have held him back but I'm convinced if he can regain his fitness he will be a player that will succeed.
Jack Byrne is just a **** tbh, every single club he's gone to his time has ended to same way...im just surprised it hasn't happened yet at Rovers tbh.
I mean this is true but I dont see how this is a factor in Curtis not developing, especially when you consider he spent 6 months at SUFC before moving to League One so whatever way you put it they must shoulder a large portion of the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Agree 100% here FWIWQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
A high proportion of all football transfers ultimately prove to be “unsuccessful”. Was just reading that Aberdeen’s record for a transfer fee received has been broken, previously held by a RB signed by Liverpool – Calvin Ramsay. Ramsay has had a few “unsuccessful” loan spells so far since moving to Liverpool and looks like a transfer bust at this stage.
If the argument is “too many” LOI transfers to UK clubs fail (can we quantify this?), remember Sheffield got Curtis for next to nothing, certainly relative to what Liverpool paid Aberdeen for Ramsay. Worth the punt I think - Curtis has played plenty in the LOI and has been capped at multiple underage levels. If it doesn’t work out, it will hardly make a dent on Sheffield’s well-being. And maybe that’s the issue here. LOI players are available next to nothing, they are a value punt. If they work out, great. If not, it’s no biggy – no pressing financial need for clubs to persevere to make it work.
Lads, lads I've started an awful rumble here.
Everybody calma llama.
Nothing is definitive about Curtis yet.
He's had a patchy first 180 minutes, with some good bits but bad bits too & they stick out.
The whole defence are under fire. The whole defence are also kids. Too early for verdicts on this. Let's see if he can stay in the side & how things are ten games in if he does. It might improve & it doesn't have to improve loads for him to steady things.
Personally I find it an interesting discussion. Theres 2 kinds of players leaving the LOI for British clubs in the post Brexit era really, the lads who are attempting to go straight into 1st teams at the lower levels and then the others, generally younger, going into youth structures at a higher level. This is purely observational and I havent deep dived into it so I'll be wide open to correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
The afore mentioned Devoy, Burns, Madriou, Tierney and Lyons are probably the bigger names to have gone across to go into 1st teams and not made a massive success of it. Because they are relatively big names in LOI it maybe brightens the spotlight on the lack of success, while in fairness someone like Graham Coughan is doing pretty well and Gavin Molloy has made a great start at Aberdeen. Akachukwu will be an interesting watch at Southampton to see how he goes, considering he played a fair amount for Waterford. Ogbene is the biggest success from LOI in recent years and he wasnt a big name before going across.
With the younger lads who have gone into youth teams it'll be a bit of time before we really see if that path turns out to be more successful. The likes of Umeh and O'Mahony are very promising but Killian Phillips is an example of one who probably wont make the cut at the top level just yet anyway.
Curtis is in the middle a bit, gone over with the expectation of 1st team at high level, finds himself in lower level and this season with be character building if nothing else.
It's worth noting all the others who have gone over, fairly under the radar, not particularly stand out LOI players, and done well, so far. The likes of Tunmise Sobowale, Roland Idowu, Ryan Graydon, Tommy Lonergan and Jack Moylan. Those are players who have only gone over in the last year or so. Even the like of Emmanuel Adegboyega who has quickly found himself in first team affairs in League Two and now Scottish Premiership after breaking through at Drogheda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
For all these high profile 'failures', there's plenty of others who make the grade, like the above, and countless others before them too.
Likewise, there's been plenty of established League One and League Two players who have come over to LOI and been utterly sh!te too.
Could it be that theres a bit of an ego thing that lads who are some of the better players in the LOI go over and suddenly find themselves being the small fish in a big pond and are not able to handle that adjustment mentally, whereas its not such a mental adjustment for some of the lesser known players?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
It's possible, but I do think there's an element of inflated wages playing a part in some lads coming back. Some of the figures quoted are eye watering for a LOI level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Personally I quite enjoy a Sam-a-llama ding dong now and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke