The One That Got Away?

You wonder if you turn the question around, who's the best player to play for Ireland who on the face of it has been more likely to play for another country?

Steve Heighway and Ray Houghton are the two obvious ones. Michael Obafemi has the potential to be up there I think too. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy I think irk the Scots (not sure on that though). James McClean and Shane Duffy have U21 caps for the North.

Have we had many players who've played underage for other countries (apart from the North) and then transferred across to us for senior level?

Ciaran Clark played for England at every level up to under 20, and captained the side.

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Ciaran Clark played for England at every level up to under 20, and captained the side.

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.

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I presume he had at least one English parent. I think we capped him after only a couple of Liverpool first team games so got him early. Lawrenson would definitely have got England caps.

John Aldridge would have played for England for sure

Between Houghton, McCarthy and McGeady from Scotland, Duffy, McClean and a few more from the north and Kevin Sheedy from Wales, we've taken quite a few useful players from the other celtic teams over the years.

On the other hand, while people moan about Rice and Grealish, we've never really lost an Irish born player of note to another country, I can only think of players who wouldn't have been capped for us. That will probably happen in the next few years though and it will be interesting to see the reaction when it does.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.

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Shay Brennan played for Ireland in 65 under the parentage rule, so Heighway could have played for England ten years later.

Edit - Sheedy's a great call of course

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Originally Posted by third policeman

I presume he had at least one English parent. I think we capped him after only a couple of Liverpool first team games so got him early. Lawrenson would definitely have got England caps.

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Lawrenson was one of the best defenders in the world. He would have been a mainstay of the England defence for years. Absolutely amazing player. Feel him and to a far lesser
extent Beglin are forgotten about because they missed the good times. Both unlucky with injury.

We missed out on some players down the years though. Greaves right through to Keegan through toRooney and Kane. Gerrard Gazza and Scholes, Ferdinand or Keown. Adams could have played for us as well.

Met Alan Kennedy once when he was over for some Liverpool supporters thing as my mate is very involved with the supporters club. Not a Liverpool fan but just chatting about what a great team he played in afterwards. He talked about the Irish influence of Whelan Lawrenson and others and said him, Ray Kennedy and Sammy Lee could have played for us. Said Ronnie Whelan was the most loved player in the dressing room because he could control a game so well. Said a dirtier player than Souness though!

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Lawrenson was one of the best defenders in the world. He would have been a mainstay of the England defence for years. Absolutely amazing player. Feel him and to a far lesser
extent Beglin are forgotten about because they missed the good times. Both unlucky with injury.

We missed out on some players down the years though. Greaves right through to Keegan through toRooney and Kane. Gerrard Gazza and Scholes, Ferdinand or Keown. Adams could have played for us as well.

Met Alan Kennedy once when he was over for some Liverpool supporters thing as my mate is very involved with the supporters club. Not a Liverpool fan but just chatting about what a great team he played in afterwards. He talked about the Irish influence of Whelan Lawrenson and others and said him, Ray Kennedy and Sammy Lee could have played for us. Said Ronnie Whelan was the most loved player in the dressing room because he could control a game so well. Said a dirtier player than Souness though!

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Alan kennedy was kinda hardy himself. I was surprised Liverpool let him go to Newcastle ( i think ) coz I thought there was a few more good years left in him. Liverpool must have had a top class replacement ready in line which was the Liverpool way in those days.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Alan kennedy was kinda hardy himself. I was surprised Liverpool let him go to Newcastle ( i think ) coz I thought there was a few more good years left in him. Liverpool must have had a top class replacement ready in line which was the Liverpool way in those days.

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Top player he was. Lovely man.

Think he’s from that neck of the woods so might have just wanted to head home.

Ray Kennedy was an outstanding player. Think Ronnie Whelan replaced him at Liverpool but he could have been a great player for us in the 70s.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Top player he was. Lovely man.

Think he’s from that neck of the woods so might have just wanted to head home.

Ray Kennedy was an outstanding player. Think Ronnie Whelan replaced him at Liverpool but he could have been a great player for us in the 70s.

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Ray Kennedy was a bit unusual in that he was a Striker at Arsenal and Liverpool converted him in to a very very good midfielder ~ ~ slightly unusual career progression at the age Ray kennedy was.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Between Houghton, McCarthy and McGeady from Scotland, Duffy, McClean and a few more from the north and Kevin Sheedy from Wales, we've taken quite a few useful players from the other celtic teams over the years.

On the other hand, while people moan about Rice and Grealish, we've never really lost an Irish born player of note to another country, I can only think of players who wouldn't have been capped for us. That will probably happen in the next few years though and it will be interesting to see the reaction when it does.

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On the second point, I think the Nigerian influence on our team has been fantastic. We haven't lost a player to them and it's great. Obafemi and Ogbene are two with heavy connections - Ogbene being born there. Festy has two Nigerian parents two I think. Then you have Idah and Omobamidele and Bazunu with one and another Irish so less risk there. But it seems like players with Nigerian heritage are happy to stay with us. Exemplified too underage with more there e.g. Kayode and Armstrong and Odubeko and Adaramola etc.

We haven't lost a player to Nigeria yet I don't think and hopefully it continues.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

On the second point, I think the Nigerian influence on our team has been fantastic. We haven't lost a player to them and it's great. Obafemi and Ogbene are two with heavy connections - Ogbene being born there. Festy has two Nigerian parents two I think. Then you have Idah and Omobamidele and Bazunu with one and another Irish so less risk there. But it seems like players with Nigerian heritage are happy to stay with us. Exemplified too underage with more there e.g. Kayode and Armstrong and Odubeko and Adaramola etc.

We haven't lost a player to Nigeria yet I don't think and hopefully it continues.

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Yes, the Nigerian influence has been a brilliant addition (due in no small part to our lax citizenship laws of the 1990s and early 2000s!). As we saw with Ogbene it's one thing to want to play for Nigeria and a whole other thing to actually play for them. In practice the numbers they have to pick from, the travel distance etc. makes it easy enough for a player who is dual qualified to go with Ireland.

Unfortunately where the issue will arise is when the first Irish born generation of mid 2000s onwards Central/Eastern European dual nationals come through. It will be much easier for them to choose their parents' country of birth over Ireland and I expect quite a few will do that.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Yes, the Nigerian influence has been a brilliant addition (due in no small part to our lax citizenship laws of the 1990s and early 2000s!). As we saw with Ogbene it's one thing to want to play for Nigeria and a whole other thing to actually play for them. In practice the numbers they have to pick from, the travel distance etc. makes it easy enough for a player who is dual qualified to go with Ireland.

Unfortunately where the issue will arise is when the first Irish born generation of mid 2000s onwards Central/Eastern European dual nationals come through. It will be much easier for them to choose their parents' country of birth over Ireland and I expect quite a few will do that.

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Repeal the 27th Amendment!

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.

Interestingly, I’m reading McAteer’s book and his grandfather was from Co. Down. Not sure how that qualified him for us at the time in 1994

It's a good read, isn't it? Became a professional footballer almost by accident

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

It's a good read, isn't it? Became a professional footballer almost by accident

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Yeah. Very entertaining as McAteer generally is. Although some of his memories of big matches are not quite right. He should’ve used YouTube to confirm his memories

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.

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He was here until age ten apparently (linked here earlier). Way longer than I thought

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He was here until age ten apparently (linked here earlier). Way longer than I thought

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Wow. Much longer than I thought too

His dad was working for Busáras. But he says he never really felt Irish alright, so strange in a way we got him when he was eligible for England (and was quite good)

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.

Interestingly, I’m reading McAteer’s book and his grandfather was from Co. Down. Not sure how that qualified him for us at the time in 1994

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Similar to Alan Kernaghan I guess. Don't think Down being in the north would have caused any big issue.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Similar to Alan Kernaghan I guess. Don't think Down being in the north would have caused any big issue.

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Well no player from 6 counties was able to play for us until recently. One of Kernaghan’s grandparents was born in republic

Were they? I thought it was just that they were Irish citizens but were all from the North. I assume that's how McAteer qualified also?

It's probably clarified one way or the other in the Eligibility Rules thread somewhere, but I don't have the patience to go back through it to check.

It's hard enough trying to keep up with the current eligibility rules these days.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

His dad was working for Busáras. But he says he never really felt Irish alright, so strange in a way we got him when he was eligible for England (and was quite good)

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He was very very very good. What we would do for a player as good as Steve Heighway today ?

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Were they? I thought it was just that they were Irish citizens but were all from the North. I assume that's how McAteer qualified also?

It's probably clarified one way or the other in the Eligibility Rules thread somewhere, but I don't have the patience to go back through it to check.

It's hard enough trying to keep up with the current eligibility rules these days.

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I didn’t think people from the north were entitled to irish citizenship till the good Friday agreement?

Strange situation with McAteer. There’s weird stuff around people born prior to the republic (before 01/01/49)… that they can apply to be British subjects and later British Citizens. Maybe the reverse was somehow true if someone was born before partition in 21 or the free state in 22? That would likely include a grandparent of his

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

I didn’t think people from the north were entitled to irish citizenship till the good Friday agreement?

Strange situation with McAteer. There’s weird stuff around people born prior to the republic (before 01/01/49)… that they can apply to be British subjects and later British Citizens. Maybe the reverse was somehow true if someone was born before partition in 21 or the free state in 22? That would likely include a grandparent of his

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I think they were given citizenship by Ireland for years prior to that - the GFA formalised the position of NI in British and Irish law and meant that both countries recognised people's rights to an Irish passport, but I'm fairly certain the Irish government issued citizenship to any northerners that wanted one long before that.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

I think they were given citizenship by Ireland for years prior to that - the GFA formalised the position of NI in British and Irish law and meant that both countries recognised people's rights to an Irish passport, but I'm fairly certain the Irish government issued citizenship to any northerners that wanted one long before that.

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They did. Most of my family had / have Irish citizenship and many born before GFA.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

They did. Most of my family had / have Irish citizenship and many born before GFA.

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Proper order!

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Well no player from 6 counties was able to play for us until recently. One of Kernaghan’s grandparents was born in republic

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Not so.

Although few and far between ("Gentlemans Agreement"?), there was the odd one back in the day. Off the top of my head, I can think of (Belfast-born) Ger Crossley, who played in the Brian Kerr team which won the Euro U-18's title in 1998. While the Kearns/CAS case later confirmed that the automatic Irish cotizenship accorded to all NI people at birth by the Irish government is sufficient to permit them to be selected by the FAI.

As for Kernaghan, he was born in England, but moved with his English parents to Bangor when he was young. He played for NI Schools, and was even a ball boy at Windsor etc, but when he came onto Billy Bingam's radar, the IFA instructed that he wasn't eligible to be selected. Iirc, this was because the four home nations had an agreement that they would not select "each other's" players unless they also had a close ancestral connection.

AK had NI-born grandparents, but the IFA was (typically) slow to recognise a grandparent as being sufficient, insisting instead on a parent. However through his grandparents, AK was entitled to Irish citizenship, which in turn meant that he could be selected by the FAI under FIFA's eligibility rules. The player himself had hoped to play for NI, but he wasn't at all bothered about representing ROI when NI was closed off to him: like a lot of players, he just wanted to play international football, and to hell with the politics.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not so.

Although few and far between ("Gentlemans Agreement"?), there was the odd one back in the day. Off the top of my head, I can think of (Belfast-born) Ger Crossley, who played in the Brian Kerr team which won the Euro U-18's title in 1998. While the Kearns/CAS case later confirmed that the automatic Irish cotizenship accorded to all NI people at birth by the Irish government is sufficient to permit them to be selected by the FAI.

As for Kernaghan, he was born in England, but moved with his English parents to Bangor when he was young. He played for NI Schools, and was even a ball boy at Windsor etc, but when he came onto Billy Bingam's radar, the IFA instructed that he wasn't eligible to be selected. Iirc, this was because the four home nations had an agreement that they would not select "each other's" players unless they also had a close ancestral connection.

AK had NI-born grandparents, but the IFA was (typically) slow to recognise a grandparent as being sufficient, insisting instead on a parent. However through his grandparents, AK was entitled to Irish citizenship, which in turn meant that he could be selected by the FAI under FIFA's eligibility rules. The player himself had hoped to play for NI, but he wasn't at all bothered about representing ROI when NI was closed off to him: like a lot of players, he just wanted to play international football, and to hell with the politics.

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There were plenty of players from the Republic who got caps for the IFA team before FIFA put a stop to it, but did a player from the North ever play for the FAI team during the era of "Two Irelands"?

PS, EG, RIP Billy Bingham. I think he got a lot of unfair criticism over the infamous Windsor game. I don't believe he was ever purposely inciting some of the more unpleasant sectarian crowd behaviour on that occasion. He was the first NI manager to appoint a Catholic captain and had the respect and affection of all his players from whatever background. Came across as a decent man, and as someone who is not ashamed to say I shout for both Irish sides (with a primary loyalty to ROI), he gave a lot of people unforgettable memories especially in 82. It's odd but back in the day a lot of people in the Republic would support NI or at least shout for them during those World Cups.

Ealing Green - I think you have that pretty much bang on in terms of the Irish citizenship situation for Kernaghan - presumably that's how McAteer qualified for us also. Once there was a grandparent born on the island they could play for ROI as far as FIFA were concerned. But at the time it tended to be English born players that availed of this, NI born nationalists pretty much always played for the north during the Troubles.

I'm a bit too young to remember the glory days of NI football, but I can imagine it would have been easy enough for people in the south to support them back then - ROI had no history of tournament qualification at that point and the NI team had plenty of nationalists and seemed at that point to be able to appeal to both sides of the divide.

It's strange that, as things settled down a bit politically in the north, the football became more divisive around the same time. I think the Lennon incident contributed to it and made nationalists feel less welcome in terms of the unionist fanbase. Then the CAS ruling opened the door so there was no longer any ambiguity in terms of eligibility, they could play for us if they wanted to and it turned out many did.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Ealing Green - I think you have that pretty much bang on in terms of the Irish citizenship situation for Kernaghan - presumably that's how McAteer qualified for us also. Once there was a grandparent born on the island they could play for ROI as far as FIFA were concerned. But at the time it tended to be English born players that availed of this, NI born nationalists pretty much always played for the north during the Troubles.

I'm a bit too young to remember the glory days of NI football, but I can imagine it would have been easy enough for people in the south to support them back then - ROI had no history of tournament qualification at that point and the NI team had plenty of nationalists and seemed at that point to be able to appeal to both sides of the divide.

It's strange that, as things settled down a bit politically in the north, the football became more divisive around the same time. I think the Lennon incident contributed to it and made nationalists feel less welcome in terms of the unionist fanbase. Then the CAS ruling opened the door so there was no longer any ambiguity in terms of eligibility, they could play for us if they wanted to and it turned out many did.

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That’s true about cross community support for NI even during the troubles. I think your analysis is pretty much spot on, but I think the other issue is that the teams never played each other until the qualification campaigns. When they did it polarised support in NI. Nationalists instinctively supported ROI and some elements of the NI fan base from unionist or even more loyalist persuasion saw these fixtures very much in sectarian / political terms. I credit the IFA with trying to rebuild cross community support, but it’s not going to happen now. The two teams are pretty much emblems of identity. I know EG disagrees with this, but I think there is slightly more chance of one Irish team being able to attract support across political and cultural divides and borders then the NI team ever attracting nationalist support. The NI team and shirt are now pretty much owned by one community. I guess an All Ireland team, even with neutral symbols and anthems like Rugby and Cricket, would still be seen by some as a nationalist takeover, so we’re probably destined for a form of football apartheid until or unless we see a United Ireland .

I thought the technicality with Kernaghan was that his grandfather was born in Belfast before partition.

It's definitely his grandparents according to this - https://www.the42.ie/alan-kernaghan-4687458-Jun2019/
Doesn't mention when they were born though
The comments he got from the Northern Ireland fans are disgraceful

My understanding of the Kernaghan sitution ws that while he was actually eligible for the NI team according to FIFA criteria, under the IFA's own stricter criteria, he was never going to be selected.

Maybe I've got it wrong though.

According to Wikipedia, Kernaghan's grandmother was born in the Republic. That was always the story I remember about him. Even though all his grandparents were northern Protestants, one of them was born in Republic and that qualified him for us