Obviously it makes you equal to us. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Printable View
Obviously it makes you equal to us. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Ah now - you drew 2-2 and 0-0. This against at best a barely pro team (average gates of c. 2000 in an 18-game league - I honestly don't see how they could be pro, but then you were there and I wasn't). There's a massive jump up from scraping by them and being confident against a Division One team. Players who draw against Icelandic opposition twice aren't much use to us in international football, where actual wins count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
You could make a case for the Hajduk game - or you could argue that that was the once-off. The Depor game was a good performance, but then take into account that they were in pre-season and how poor they turned out to be, etc.
I'm not arguing that maybe Heary doesn't deserve to be in the squad ahead of Maybury or someone like that, but you can't dismiss the Linfield game as a one-off, as it clearly isn't (the performances against Portadown were hardly convincing either). The league here has a long way to go before we can have players in the squad regularly. We're better off concentrating on that and the international call-ups will come when (if) the league reaches the required level.
Well firstly a win is a win, also, you forgot Lille.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
My point about Linfield was it's not an accuate sign of our standard, as we've been crap all month. We've lost to other sides in this league we'd consider ourselves better than, it doesn't mean we're now worse than them, just we're woefully out of form. Portadown at home was when the season had barely started, we outplayed them on their own pitch.
Mick Martin transfered to Manchester United in 1973. I remember as a kid being devastated. And trying to get the Da to explain why Mick would even consider moving away.Quote:
Both those players were definately at Rovers a the time they got capped. Surely Mick Martin left Bohs in the late 60s early 70s.
George Best appearing in the game at Dalymount which was part of the deal softened the blow somewhat, but then Gerry Daly left as well and it was the end.
Look there's a few things here.Quote:
Odd logic, a one off match, we've lost to some other sides who we'd consider ourselves better than in the last month or so...
I'd fancy Shels chances against some of the bottom teams in that division, but Reading over two legs you'd expect to beat us.
1. The group of die-hard Eircom League supporters (fair play to you by the way - I served my time at enough wind swept, god forsaken places, with only a Bovril between me and a state of frozen eternity) need to remove the rose tinted glasses. Yes the league is better than it was a decade ago (or appears to be). Yes the facilities are better (marginally). But the rest of the leagues in Europe have also improved. In other words, we haven’t really gained any ground.
2. There have been a few interesting runs recently – Bohemians (esp Aberdeen), Shelbourne (esp Hadjuk), Cork (albeit Inter Toto), but on the whole it’s still ****-weak. We’ve arrived when our 3 teams are regularly winning a round every year. And when our 3 representatives are the real ones competing for the Setanta. FFS Cork lost at home to Portadown, who were at the end of their season, in a game that DID matter, in front of their million passionate fans Zzzzzzzzz.
3. Shelbourne appears to be a well run club. They are certainly the current “force” in the League and perhaps a model for others to follow. Effectively they have the pick of every player they want (signing Crowe, Ryan from their recent closest rivals). But they’re still rubbish. And despite this they haven’t put any daylight between themselves and the rest.
4. I suppose that you could argue that Millwall (a Championship club, which DID play in Europe last season), faired no better than the Eircom League entrants. But this merely demonstrates, equality, at best and certainly not superiority. If you then take into account the “experienced in Europe every year line” then you might argue that Millwall did better (with their first ever european tie).
So in summary, yes the Eircom League is better than it was, but it’s (and the players that play in it) still not great. There’s a long way to go, before I’d be happy to see a home based player pull on a green shirt. And even if/when they do, I’d want the selection on true merit, rather than a bias towards a particular league.
Finally if you think Kerr is only picking players once they move to England, you’re wrong and probably younger than 25.
I think that some of them are better than players who play in the Championship. Do you rate David Connolly as international class? I don't. But BK will play him when we're short of strikers, whining that we have "nobody else". So, that attitude rules out Jason Byrne, and Glenn Crowe, and John O'Flynn, three of the best strikers in Ireland. We don't have to rely on Gary Doherty when Keane, Morrison, or even Elliot are not available. We have a number of strikers to call from our domestic league; ready, talented, and willing to show the country what they can do, but the coach won't consider them based on a perception that they play their club football in the wrong country, rather than a lack of individual ability. When Crowe was selected for the Greece game, Alan Lee was upset, claiming that he played at a higher level. He played for lousy Rotherham at the time but sorry, even Bohs are a better side than Rotherham.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think Owen Heary deserves a shot at the International setup, especially when you consider how low we were on defensive options during the recent qualifiers. He has been the best fullback in the league for a long time now, and was immense during Shels european run last year.
Lille played youz off the park for 85% of that game and should have been 6-0 up by half-time in Lansdowne alone. If you're going to use that game to suggest you're as good as Lille, then we're as good as you and I want out players in the Ireland squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Even the worst Division One team would have trouble losing to Linfield, regardless of form. If an IL player gets into the NI squad, it's taken as a sign of how poor the NI team is. Yet we expect eL teams - who only had about a 50% record against the IL overall in the tournament - to get into a much better international team?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Brian Kerr hasn't played - or selected even - Connolly in months. He mightn't be international class, but by the same token, neither are any of the names you mentioned - and they're further away from the standard than Connolly is. Byrne for one was a flop in Europe - eight games and no goals. Playing against the likes of Finn Harps and Shamrock Rovers also isn't the best way to prepare for an international match, while at least playing against Division One clubs is a much better test on a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I'm afraid that's pure blinkered conspiracy talk. If anyone knows the players in the eL, it's Kerr. If he isn't picking them...maybe - just maybe - they're not good enough...? The simplest explanation is often the right one and all that?Quote:
but the coach won't consider them based on a perception that they play their club football in the wrong country, rather than a lack of individual ability.
I never said we were as good as themQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Compare and contrast our teams in Europe v theirs, that's the real judge of standard.Quote:
Even the worst Division One team would have trouble losing to Linfield, regardless of form. If an IL player gets into the NI squad, it's taken as a sign of how poor the NI team is. Yet we expect eL teams - who only had about a 50% record against the IL overall in the tournament - to get into a much better international team?
That's simply not the case, he was one of our best players espically away to Deportivo where him and Ndo were head and shoulders above the rest for us, you don't have to score to play well.Quote:
Byrne for one was a flop in Europe
If he thinks Heary isn't good enough and Maybury is he needs his head examined.Quote:
If anyone knows the players in the eL, it's Kerr. If he isn't picking them...maybe - just maybe - they're not good enough...?
byrne was very poor in the big games. especially the lansdowne games he looked lost at sea, and never looked convincing imoQuote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
i think you need to take of the rose tinted glasses. heary is good (excellent by eL standards), but by no means is he up to international squad standard. he'll probably never be either, unless he can test himself against a higher level week in week out - which maybury is doingQuote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
i suppose the point is that maybury is no where near international standard either but is good enough to get in our squad sometimes due to our limatations
Disagree completley. You only have to look at the difference in our performance when he switched from right wing to up front instead of Fitzpatrick, it was like watching a different team. His touch, awareness and holding the ball up was in a different class to Fitzpatrick and we were really on the offensive for the latter stage of that match. It was the same away to Deportivo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinR
Maybury can test himself against Ronaldinho every day for all I care, it wont alter the fact he's not upto it. Heary got MOTM against Deportivo, Mayburys embarassed himself for Ireland against far worse teams. Like Gustavo said, I'm not saying Heary is the new Cafu, but we aren't exactly filled with international class full backs. Beyond Finnan, Carr and in the future if he progesses Kelly, Heary is the best we have and deserves his chance.Quote:
i think you need to take of the rose tinted glasses. heary is good (excellent by eL standards), but by no means is he up to international squad standard. he'll probably never be either, unless he can test himself against a higher level week in week out - which maybury is doing
Young Robbie Kelleher playing up front for us will be the next eircom league player capped.. :D :D . He's the closest tHing to Wayne Rooney in the league and would score goals for any side he played for...Pure class...HANDS OFF!!! :D :ball:
think we'll have to disagree slash. heary was rte's mom v deportivo, its only one game, maybury has played champions league group stages, uefa group stages last season, and will be playing championship next year. he is in a better environment because he is a better player. (anyway rte were always going to pick a shels player for mom).
as for byrne watching as a neutral i thought he was very disappointing - he was someone who i would have thought could compete at that level, but never looked up to it (same against lille - infact more so).
its always easy when your a fan to think that your player is better than he is, you know you nearly sound like a cork fan ;)
The next LOI player in the national side ? I'd nominate Richey Baker.
:D :D :D You are joking right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit
I wouldn't even pick Baker for Shels
He's playing at a higher level it does NOT mean he's a better player.Quote:
heary was rte's mom v deportivo, its only one game, maybury has played champions league group stages, uefa group stages last season, and will be playing championship next year. he is in a better environment because he is a better player. (anyway rte were always going to pick a shels player for mom).
Now dont shoot me for this but...
Is Gareth Farrelly to auld to get a call up :confused:
Why else did you say...Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
You're talking about one off results being an accurate show of standard, if Linfield are better than us because of the Setanta cup then we're as good as the team who finished second in France. There's no logic to looking at it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm not - I've shown several performances which show (most at least) of the players quite clearly aren't up to international standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Most of them during this season where we haven't played near our best at all. Aside from that you picked out a European tie we won :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I'm going to spell this out quite simply - you progressed past KR. You did not beat them in either game. If an English Premiership or Division One side had scraped by KR in such a manner, there'd have been an outcry. Yet you treat it as a success. That's why most of the eL players simply aren't good enough to play internationally yet. That's why the likes of gypsydownunder and ColinR - much as we don't like it - are exactly correct.
I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.
No there would not. Who cares if we won one of the one off games or not? It is NOT an issue in European football, you get through. Getting through = success. If AC Milan were playing them and they were offered an away goals win they'd take it, a win is a win, who cares what the end score is? How in the hell is progressing failure? It wasn't pretty, but I suppose Duff and Keane aren't international class after Ireland played so poorly against the Faroe Islands? And AC Milan aren't a good team after only getting into the champions league on away goals the year they won it?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
And the first division side didn't set Europe alight last year, facing a weaker team than Shels in the first round of the UEFA cup.
V Lille we were outclassed. Now, if you could measure the Irish international teams playes all on the standard of Lille, we'd be a f*cking amazing team. Do you think a team consisting of the likes of Maybury, Barrett, Lee, Doherty, Quinn and co would have stood even the remotest chance against a team who finished second in France? Don't make me bleedin' laugh.Quote:
I picked several games to show eL players (specifically in this instance, Shels players) were not up to standard - both v. KR, both v. Lille, the one v. Linfield and the home game v. Portadown (the UCD mention was a joke, and wouldn't affect my point anyway). Therefore, most of the games I picked were not from this season - they were from last season, when you were playing well.
The KR match we won, end of story, I really am not interested in how it happened. We won, we went through, they did not, the end. You've nicely ommited Hadjuk Split at home, Hajduk Split away, Deportivo at home and Deportivo away from your little test.
The portadown match was at the start of the season and they had the fitness advantage, we outplayed them on their own patch later. Linfield was a one off, Linfield finished behind Glentoran yet beat them in the Setanta cup, I suppose they're better now? You're useing one off results to prove a point and it is one of the most inept arguments in football, you can't do it. You think we're a worse side than Linfield because of the Setanta Cup final? Okay, so two years ago we were a worse team than Sligo? The european champions are worse than Burley? Yeah, fair enough :confused:
I very much doubt it and why did you even mention a division one team?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ah come on! If AC drew twice against KR, the manager would be sacked. In fact, he'd be sacked before the second leg. If these players can't beat Icelandic part-timers - twice - how can we justify a call-up to an international squad to play France?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.
No, he wouldn't. People would be unimpressed with the performance, but they would be happy with progression. Are you saying if you offered a team progression to the next round they wouldn't take it? Come off it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm not saying fitness excuses our performance against Portadown but it was a factor as proved by the away game. You're selecting the home game as some kind of sign yet ignoreing the away game when we outclassed them, that is absolutley stupid.Quote:
My "test" was to disprove your theory that the Linfield game was a once-off. I don't need to look at every game. Though if you're going to make a big deal about being at the very start of the season when you played in the Setanta, I suppose you'll agree that, had Depor not been in pre-season themselves when they played youz, they would have hammered you?
The Linfield game was a one off because it was a one off game, it was a final, you can't possibley judge a teams standard in a final. That's completley and totally retarded. How many upsets have there been in finals? Bloody millions, it doesn't mean the teams who won were better or the teams who lost were poor. Are Milan to be disregarded as a world class team for failing to beat the 5th place team in England, who finished below bloody everton?
Our previous teams were not as good as the team last year ot this year. In fact your whole theory that you can judge a player by his team is also completley retarded. Lets look at it like this, Lille H, Lille A, Deportivo H, Deportivo A, Hajduk Split H, Hajduk Split A, KR H, KR A, Ljubljana H, Ljubljana A, Brondby H, Brondby A - In not one of those games did Heary play poorly or show he wans't internetional class. Not one. Add Rosenborg and the rest onto that list. In fact in most he was absolutley exceptional.Quote:
Repeating mistruths don't make them true. I am using six-off occasions, NOT one-offs. I am going to pains to point this out. In fact, you could argue given previous European performances - Lille, Hibernians, Ljubljana, Brondby, etc. - that the Hajduk game was a once-off, one on which you're basing your theory that Shels players should have ten caps for Ireland by now.
Drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football? Alright here, and answer this please, if I offered you right now that Ireland will finish second in their group, somehow draw a part time team in the play offs to qualify, draw 2-2 away and 0-0 at home, you're going to say no, call for Kerrs head and demand more? Are you f*ck.Quote:
The bottom line - and I will repeat this because you seem to be making every effort to pretend that I'm arguing something different - if the best team in the league contains players who so often (not once-off) fail to beat (drawing matches doesn't do any good in international football) part-time teams, or get completely and utterly outclassed against semi-decent teams, then they are not good enough for the national team. There's no point in replacing dross with dross - and I would rank those players you named as above any in the eL Premier; Gareth Farrelly has come from a lower Division One team to the eL and is now acknowledged as one of the best players in the league when he's fit. I'm not gloating in that fact. It's just the truth.
Right so, if the European champions can't beat Burley they're sh*t too? Open your eyes, results like those happen all over football. I'm sure the champions of England have lost to woefully inferior teams many, many times. I'm not arsed looking it up, you and I both know it's true. ffs Man U struggled to beat Exeter this season, only after a replay and a very even game did they. Keanes not international class now?
You're whole argument is flawed for two completley stupid reasons. 1) You're arguing that a few results can prove the entire standard of a team/league, that is not true. 2) You're saying that because a league/team has alot of substandard players that there can't possibley ever be international class players in it. Wrong. Heary has proved himself at the highest level, a higher level than Ireland will play bar a few games a year. Maybury has proved himself to not be up to it against inferior teams. I couldn't give a toss if Maybury plays for the 1970s Dutch team and Heary plays for Doncaster, on a player by player comparison, looking at both of their performances against top level opposition, Heary is better.
The year A.C.Milan won the CL they had to qualify(3rd round)they ended up playing Slovan Liberec(intertoto 2004 :D ).A.C got through on the away goals rule,Anccelotti was not sacked so as Slash said it come off it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Surely, in a 2 match tie, winning on Goal Difference means you had more goals!? :D :eek:
mi mistake i meant away goals difference
at the end of d day, the EL is a Cr*p league full of cr*p players who would have given their right foot to play in england, the vast majority of the stand out players are failures in england, crowe being a prime example. lets just see how well murphy and doyle do next season. i bet neither of them do sweet FA. none of the players in that league deserve a call up to their national side as they simply aint good enough and even if they were good enough no1 has even thought to take into acount if they would be able to handle the pressure of playing at the showgrounds one week and Parc De France the next.....
How many EL games do you get to see in England, livehead1?
spending months at a time in ireland....galway/sligo area i get to see quite a few thanks :D its a useless league, must really hurt EL lovers to hear the truth but if it was any good then you'd see a team selling their best player for perhaps more than 100,000 or indeed attracting a decent manager from a popular european league, or getting and attendance higher than an Eng. 2nd division game, or getting past the qualification rounds of a european competition. nuff said
Sligo and Galway, so all you've seen is first divison over the past few years then?
Is Steven Elliot International class based on the fact that he did well against the Faroe Islands, seriously? Connolly will be selected by BK when we face a striker crisis, you can be sure about that. You're being ultra-harsh on Byrne. He got a runout for about 2 minutes in a friendly for Ireland. If he was on for longer, he could have made a greater impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Disagree. Is playing against the likes of Gillingham, Cardiff, or Plymouth every week, a better test than facing the best this league has to offer, i.e. Shels, Bohs, or Cork regularly? I don't think so.Quote:
Playing against the likes of Finn Harps and Shamrock Rovers also isn't the best way to prepare for an international match, while at least playing against Division One clubs is a much better test on a regular basis.
On a separate issue, I have to agree with Slash/ed with the results arguement. If AC Milan got an away draw in a European tie during their pre-season away to an Icelandic side in mid-season, I don't think they'd be too upset. Shels may not have won against KR last year, but they qualified for the next round. You can't say the same for a side who apparantly play in a better league, Dunfermline, who went out of Europe to another Icelandic side last season, Hafnarfjordur. So if you want to compare results, that must mean that Shels are a better side than Dunfermline, but they are anyway.
Was that post sent in 1985, or 2005??Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
Judging the standard of the NL by watching games in the lower division is not an accurate assessment of the standard of the league. There are mouth-watering games on most weeks in the top flight, the standard of football is better than before, the European results have improved, and the players are full-time at most of the top flight clubs. Yes, some players want to play in England, but so do players in many countries.
Hmmmm. As mentioned earlier the last Home based player to play in a COMPETITIVE game was in..... 1985.
So maybe the standard was better then?
My better sense is telling me to write you off as a complete wind-up merchant, so this will be my last contribution...
Right so. You believe that. The reality can be seen by the example of Inter losing their first-leg game in Helsingborgs in the Champions' League in 2000 - the manager didn't last very long after that. And before you start up again, it's a one-off by necessity - results of that magnitude don't come along too often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I'm not - I am merely picking the numerous occasions when Shels showed they weren't up to it. Shels have had some good results obviously, but there are too many poor ones, which is my point. If you want to discount this game, fine, but then Heary's performances against a pre-season Depor also can't be considered for the exact reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
So you're better than them, but any results which show otherwise are to be discounted? Was it the pressure got to your team? Doesn't say much for their ability to play international football. Did they choke on the big occasion? Ditto. Big international matches are one-off too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
Let's put it this way - if we'd drawn 2-2 against the Faroes (or Cyprus) away and 0-0 at home, would we be in a position to qualify now? Draws against substandard teams aren't good enough in international football. Quite simple really.
1) There haven't been many games where Shels have tested themselves against decent teams, so I can only pick a few results. Those few results are a notable percentage of the games available to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
2) I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying I think it is the case though. Big difference. I'm calling for a bit of realism.
I see. So irrespective of what the manager who signed them thinks - who, let's face it, is more knowledgeable than you or I - or what the manager who picks the players for the international team - who, let's face it, is also more knowledgeable than you or I - you are just going to persevere in your own view that Heary is better than Maybury. Fair enough so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/Ed
That's an invalid comparison. You can't compare the bottom teams in Division One with the top teams in the eL Premier. You have to compare like with like - is playing West Ham, Sunderland, Derby, etc. more of a test than playing Shels, Cork, Bohs, etc.? Yes, I think it is. Is playing Notts Forest, Crewe, Coventry more of a test than playing UCD, Harps or Rovers? We've played Crewe and Coventry and been blown away by them, so it most certainly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I'm not basing my impresison on the Poland game. I'm basing my impression on eight opportunities against European opposition in which he didn't score, missed a number of sitters and was generally - not just by me - thought to have been poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Are you seriously comparing a Czech team to an Icelandic one?! The twelfth best league in Europe versus the 36th best? The 72nd best team in Europe in the last five years according to the UEFA rankings versus a team who don't even appear on a list of 237 teams?Quote:
Originally Posted by jorge
Great debate lads, afraid I can't add too much to it due to my lack of knowledge of the EL, (though this is getting better).
Slash/Ed, whilst you may be right in saying that you can't judge an individuals ability on his teams/domestic leagues progression. I would say it is more than likely a fairly accurate method of benchmarking his skills and ability to play at the very highest level?
Ireland are looking to qualify for the World Cup and should we get there we would be looking to at least reach the knock out stages.
I know nothing of Heany but the likelihood of a player who can form part of the team above, playing for a team with mediocre european results (although improving all the time) and playing in a league which is acknowledged as below par are remote.
A US Cup type scenario of friendlies may help to try a few players that fall in to this bracket.
That may or may not be the case. But how many internationals do Dunfermline have in their first team? Zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Not quite true - Andrius Skerla is a Lithuanian international. Think that backs up your point though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior